[Deck] Imperial Painter

I would not worry about enchantress. You can't be better than ever deck and you are faster than they are. Bring in the full complement of blast effects and go into combo mode. Sterling grove and solitary confinement are the only cards that should really concern you. It may be a deck in your meta, but I really wouldn't have cards just for it. There are plenty of splash cards though. I did love anarchy some time ago, but it really is too slow and conditional most of the time. getting better in the zoo match up might be a stronger move for you and the deck in general. Hoever you could always run more EE in the board as the card is so strong if you splash a color. That with Jaya allow you to get around just about everything other than a double sterling grove, solitary confinement soft lock. I hope this helps.

Nice to see the deck won an SCG Open:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Artifact Creatures
4 Painter's Servant

Creatures
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Thirst For Knowledge

Artifact Lands
1 Ancient Den
1 Great Furnace

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sun Titan
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Firespout

Thoughts on the list? I like the inclusion of Salvagers and Welder. I think this may be a new direction for the deck (i.e. using Recruiter as a toolbox enabler).

The version that just won the Starcitygames tournament had surprise factor. Force of Will in the main. LEDs to fuel the finish or provide the alternate finish. This deck is a pile of tutors, especially when bouncing the Trinket Mage or Recruiter with the spellbomb. I hope that this list, or one close to it, is here to stay because it has the flexibility and searching that a two card combo oriented deck needs. I cannot wait to try the list out. Forces as the only protection seems risky, but perhaps all the tutoring and recurring will make me sing a different tune.

This deck, by that I mean this version of the deck, is now the most expensive deck in Legacy. Lands decks which run two Tabernacle will be more, but the more common one Tabernacle variant Lands deck will be less expensive.

Thx for the replys on enchantress.

As for Ken Adams list (SCG champion) I am with ramanujan - at first glance it seems a pile of tutors and I dont understand his sideboard (Sun Titan?). I want to test it.

Yeah I want to try it out, if only b/c I love sun titan. I almost thought about playing standard just for him. Not sure though how is better then another welder though. I had been meaning to post a mini primer for the deck, since the front page hadn't been updated in a while. Then med school got he better of me. I have some work to go on it and I would be willing to finish it up one of these nights I'm on call. I have spent extensive time testing mono red and different splashes. Not saying I'm the best or anything, but I feel I'm competent, and I've spent far to long with the deck. If a few people would be interested in reading it ill be happy to post it. If nothing else I may be able to say some people from some of my failed experiments.

Seth

i like a lot the tutoring power and the 2 combos in one of the winning list of SCG Minneapolis (with the rising of Emrakul decks it's a good idea to play bomberman with painter) though i dislike that he dropped moos effects and blasts from his list.

maybe we can put a WR list with welder and auriok and moon effects and using enightened tutor to fecth all the pieces that trinket fetched?? I will try to do some testing and share with you the results.

@sroncor1: I will be a lot interested in reading yoour primer, knowing that you have made a lot of results with the deck and also that you have been tryng to splash blue white and black, it would be great to have all that compilled in the opening post or anywhere.

Many people have sold his recruiters before GP: Columbus with all the Alluren hype and i was tempted too, but i love this deck much more than any other in legacy and i would like to continue going competitive with it. Let's try to resharp this swiss army knife again!

Thorin

P.S I also love sun titan!!! wish he could be 2/6 to be fetchable with recruiter :)

Sorry for being ignorant, but when would you want to side-in sun titan, Meloku, and Jace?

Also, from experience, I know that moon is really good, but I think that using Force of Will is simply a stronger choice. Dragon Stompy came and went, and now we're left with a variety of FoW-supported combo decks. This combo deck ought to include FoW to help level the playing field. Perhaps the most disappointing loss is the red blasts, which often acted as counterspell backup, but once we've decided to run blue we gain access to our choice of daze, spell pierce, and the like.

Well Jace is basically always awesome. I would think he is strongest vs the non aggro match ups though. In Bant survival he is even good against zoo. he would be strong vs. rock decks along with mid range piles also.

I'm still lost on when you side in the Sun Titan, and i guess it would be against rock decks. They have slow clocks so you can hit 6 mana and at that point you start getting combo pieces back and they should not have enough removal. That is all theory.

A quick aside about the splashes, all three colors have something to offer and each one, along with mono red have advantages in certain metas. I actually have all the cards sleeved up to change the splash or go mono when I show up at every event and look around to see what I see. The white splash is by far the fastest, with blue giving you the most reach and really sticking it to tempo and control decks with blue. The black list I like the most right now mainly for the board. I may not actually play any black cards in the main, but Perish has been incredibly strong against zoo and the like. That is the biggest reason to run it. In all my testing I think running Cruel Tutor has cost me two games that Enlightened would have won me the game. And It has won me the game once when Enlightened Tutor would not have been able to do it. However the sideboard is stronger for the current landscape I think if you run black. Since I upped the lands to 19, I have found the mana base to be extremely consistent. Ill elaborate more when i get that post up. I have a little to work on and i hope to get it up within the week.

Seth

The deck was thrown together in the 20 minutes before the tournament started, and while Ken had the maindeck down pretty cold, I got the feeling the sideboard was a pretty random pile. I could be wrong, you'd have to ask him, but Sun Titan isn't tutor-able, and Jace as a one-of seems odd. Meloku is the best non-combo, 2 power-or-less win condition the deck has access to, being able to fly over moat and scale up his offensive power as the turns go by, as well as being immune to opposing Firespouts. Llawan and Faerie Macabre all tutor-able hosers, as are Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, and Engineered Explosives.

I suppose Sun Titan might be a sort of end-game F@#$ you plan for board control randomness? Like, if his creatures all get blown up for the first 20 turns or whatever, Sun Titan just repeatedly buys them back? Or it was just a slot he needed to fill.

Some other sideboard toolbox options that I have preferred in the past include Fledgling Dragon and Silent Arbiter. Hopefully we will get some interesting 1cc artifacts for our tutor package in the next set. Personally, I still like the idea of using some equipment as a backup plan, but I must admit that this list looks quite good as-is. I couldn't justify including any equipment unless I could tutor for it with Trinket Mage. Also, I would like to say that Goblin Welder is extremely fun. I have been using him in my mono red list. It's probably at its best in that list because you have Chrome Moxes to weld, but it's very fun just to mess up your opponent's artifacts on the outside chance that they use more than one.

I would probably have swapped out the Sun Titan for a Silent Arbiter in the sideboard, as it is tutor-able, colorless (easy to cast) and still has a solid impact on the game. I tended to have one in my mono-red sideboard. However, I also did not win an event with the deck *grin*

With the blue splash, I could see Meloku having a lot of power. Big Jace is just awesome, and a 3-in-1 threat (card selection, bounce, fatesealing)... however, more than 1 or 2 would seem a waste for me. I read someone saying he should be maindecked, but that just seems to detract from this deck's game 1. I could see having two in the sideboard, as it allows you to react to their deck and change plans with minimal card swaps. If you wanted to add one in the main deck, you could do so in place of a grindstone or LED.

finally moon decks have a good planeswalker to toy with!!!

what do you think of Koth for this deck?

for reference
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...8&d=1284004936

it seems sick . . . i mean the PW as for the inclusion of it i think it definitely worth a try.

i'm really liking it the more i think of him. He starts putting pressure like a figure of destiny the turn it comes into play, allows you to reach the 6 mana to combo in the same turn, and if reaching the ultimate it turns our lands in pingers for the rest of the game...

it's really nice :). I have to start testing him in order to confirm if he's that good

I am definitely going to give him a shot, he seems pretty nasty. Another card for opponents to focus their burn/counter/removal on. Really helps with aggro plan that I am a huge fan of.

-Chris-

The PW seems great for the mono-red build that also uses moons. I also like using equipment with that build to bolster the aggro strategy. I'm looking forward to some equipment in the new mirrodin expansion. It's too bad that you can't use the PW to make 4/4 blockers though. Otherwise, I would be happy to use it with a white or blue splash in more of a combo/control build.

maybe it's time to play more pump creatures like figure of destiny or kargan dragonlord to make something with the mana he nets you with its -2 abbility. I don't know exactly what he would replace in a standard mono red build of IP to start testing the hell out of it. Anyone of the good IP players would like to share a starting point list for us?

I'll hopefully have my mini primer up in a few days, I've just been getting slammed during my intern year of residency.

I think the new planeswalker could be really powerful. Not sure how he would strengthen some matchups though. I'll have to test against Zoo but he def. makes Figure stronger. He plays great with Moon effects, and serves as another kill against mid range and control decks. He def. will help with the rock matchup as he blanks their creature removal and they only have 4 cards that are super versatile(Vindicate or Malstrom Pulse). Deed doesn't hit which is huge. Currently I would think the Top/tutor slot for two of them might be the best try initially. Otherwise there isn't much we can remove from the list I think as it is pretty tight and everything has a reason in the deck. You could try and remove the Figures as they sort of serve the same roll, just a little slower. I'll try a few things, but the hard part will be getting two or three of these guys. Fucking starcity is selling them for 50 bucks. It ain't jace.

Seth

he will drop i think to 20-24 after initial hype. It's only good when you play him alongside a lot of mountains, which means essentially mono red decks. here's hoping it so i can buy a couple of them :)

Figure of Destiny is probably the weakest card in the mono-red list. Unfortunately, it just happens to work quite well with this new planeswalker. Also, it's a nice rule in general to try and keep as many creatures as possible when adding planeswalkers to a deck. A likely alternative would be to cut down the number of spirit guides or moxes in order to increase the consistency of the deck. Besides, this guy helps to boost your mana anyway. Also, it's not like you'd necessarily want to run 4x of this guy.

I don't think that you'll ever end up having too much mana in the mono-red list. You're already a little cramped for mana, and I don't think prioritizing the -2 ability is very good unless you actually have cause to use the mana. In general, if you're not going to play two things, pump the figure, or activate a grindstone, then you can feel good about doing the +1 ability and attacking for 4 or just passing. Like I said the real shame is that the 4/4 can't block for you, but I'll take whatever I can get. If you end up getting to use the ultimate, then it's a great alternate win condition which meshes well with the aggro strategy that already exists in the mono-red list.

With the inclusion of this planeswalker in the mono-red list, it probably precludes any possibility of using equipment in the list. Personally, I love Sword of Light and Shadow and think it's quite underused in general. Unfortunately, it doesn't really seem like the sword fits into the deck anymore because with planeswalkers I would favor using more bodies with less support.

another interesting card i think that at least can deserve some attention in this deck, but oppsoite to koth this is made for a more controlish version of the deck:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...2&d=1284975284
this + gorilla shaman, viashino heretic, goblin vandal or any artifact hate we have in red is awesome. it's another way to vindicate permanents aside from painter blasts and we can hold them back for protection. i would love to do t1 gorilla shaman t2 this and start nuking a land each turn for :1: :cool:

if they do play a single artifact then goblin welder can be a pain in the ass for them cause we can exchange any artifact they have for any permanent they play :smile:

thoughts on it?

@sroncor1: how have you been doing with your primer man?

@everyone: anyone is still playing the deck in tourneys?

I still love this deck but haven't had a chance to play it at any major tournament lately(last one being the Dallas 5k).. I went 3-1 at my local store a couple weeks ago (last time I got to play legacy :( ) WTB SAN ANTONIO LEGACY SCENE PST PLZ

Also the bomberman version intrigues me a ton, seems like it has a lot of strength but I'm not to entirely sure how the merfolk match is with that version and if its worth sacrificing the blasts for it.

The image isn't showing up for me, but I assume that you're talking about Liquimetal Coating. The combo doesn't even add anything new to the deck. We can already vindicate for R with painter + blast/jaya. Adding two more cards and trying to assemble all the pieces isn't worth it. Besides, worst-case scenario the painter combo turns into vindicate anything whereas best-case scenario you win outright with grindstone. Even with vindicate for 1, you're a long way from actually winning in this format consisting of Swords to Plowshares and a plethora of zoo creatures with cmc 1.

About the primer, sorry it has taken me so long. I have gotten slammed at the hospital and I havent even played in an event in over a month. I did spend some time playtesting for Starcitygames Baltimore open and that took up a lot of my free time. And I tried out Koth in a lot of situations. He is very strong. Right now I think he is the third strongest planeswalker. He does things that we could never do before and he does help in the zoo match up, far more than I thought. I'll try to get my thoughts and notes up by the weekend.

Primer will be up tonight. I'm currently finishing it up at the hospital, It sits at 7 pages typed and I'm just getting through all the matchups. i hope this helps people with bboarding, building the deck, and playing it. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions anyone has.

I’m going to start this off talking about the core cards in the deck. Imperial Painter is one of the hardest decks to play due to its varied plans of attack and not really having a dedicated draw/cantrip engine to smooth draws out. It can combo, control, and play the aggro role depending on your opening hand and the matchup. How you build the deck also can help determine this obviously, and once I get through the possible cards and card choices I’ll post my current decklist and go into matchups. I’ve been playing the deck for nearly two years now and I am still learning the best plans of attack in certain match ups. But it is a deck that with tight game play you can really hang with any other deck in the format. I know most of you are thinking that zoo is a nightmare, and it was but I have really liked the black splash and it has moved that match up to about even. Many of you may not have played the deck, but back when Fairie Stompy was still playable, it had almost all even or good matchups, but you had to play the deck tightly. Imperial painter is sort of like that, except we have a nice little combo and we eat merfolk.

Basic cards: I’m not going to talk about why these cards are played. They form the core of the deck and are pretty much staples. Basically have them in your deck.
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
6 Blast effects(you can be cute and do a 3 and 3 split but it doesn’t fucking matter)
3 grindstone
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Chrome Mox
3 SSG
18 lands(we’ll get into specifics later)
for a total of 45, giving you 15 cards to customize the deck. But to be truthful it comes down to more like 3 or 4 cards.

Deck Construction:
Let’s start with mana first. The earlier builds use to run 3-4 chrome mox with 4 SSG and 18 lands. Personally, and I know many others feel the same way, but 3 Chrome Mox is the right number. 18 lands feels right in a mono red shell, with 8 of those being 2 mana lands(ancient tombs and city of traitors). I never ran fetches with a mono red build, but I know others have and they can speak to the success or failure to that idea. On a fundamental level it doesn’t really thin your deck out and I can go over the math you if you like, but its not a strong enough advantage to compensate for the occasional stifle and life loss, which isn’t insignificant with ancient tomb in the deck. I will add this disclaimer being that this is more theory than testing, but I know the math favors no fetches. With a splash then 4 on color fetches should be played. 2 of the required dual lands should suffice. This gives you 4 basic mountains.
I currently run 19 lands due to stability issues and I have found that to be the best for me. Now we need to address the issue of having the off color basic. If you are splashing white it really is a no brainer as you can still power up Figure with it. The other splashes are more difficult to determine. Wasteland is a significant threat in the format and it sucks having a tutor stuck in your hand when you have your opponent under moon effects. Typically I will have a basic swamp or island if I am running main deck off color cards. Your Figures become slightly weaker but you get access to more answers and thus more flexibility. I feel that the trade off is worth it, but your mileage may vary. That will bring the land count up to 19, from the 18 I mentioned earlier, giving us 14 cards to work with moving forward.
Next I want to address Lightning Bolt. In short you need to play 4 main deck in the current field. I know on the outside it looks week and ordinary. Its fucking lightning bolt can’t we do something fancier or sexy. The problem is that it does its job better than any card printed. Almost every deck in the format as a card you would gladly trade with our one mana instant. Bob, pridemage, natal, lords, shitty merfolk lords, meddling mage, weird elves( off the top of my head I have no idea where to aim in this matchup, but I think the proper target you will spot trying to do something broken) just to name a few. They blow up man lands and serve as a great answer to planeswalkers. Even tendrils decks can’t go below 4 life as the have to respect the bolt. Yes I will admit that sometimes he is underwhelming, but you will almost always gain tempo with it or at least fuck up combat math. So we are down to 10 cards in the deck to play with.
Now we will address the controllish elements of the deck. Zoo is good. That should come as no surprise to anyone. People love to play with 50 dollar lands. Moon stops all that. I personally run 2 blood moon effects main deck currently. They are rarely dead and in those rare instances they can be imprinted, sided out, or pitched to Jaya ballard. Even against Merfolk they are strong because Merfolk have started to splash and they stop mutavault. Moon effects are one of those cards that you want to see it immediately or not at all so 6 is a good number. I would try and fit 7 total moon effects but there is diminishing returns and an increase in the dead cards in hand, not to mention the final deck list is fairly tight. The other controllish card I want to address is Jaya Ballard. This is more of a personal preference more than anything. I recommend having a tutorable answer to the random shit you will see. Viashino heretic is another very strong option, but his scope is limited. Jaya can beat enchanters. She can beat planeswalkers. She can beat artifacts. She gives the deck reach and more utility. You could sub Vexing Shusher in if countertop is big in your area, but most of the time she can handle those decks just as well. And she kicks countertop decks in the nuts to boot. So we are are now down to 7 cards available in the deck.
Lets now address the tutorable targets in the deck. Personally, beaters are some of the strongest choices you can make. Sometimes the combo isn’t there and you need something to seal the deal uder a moon lock. Figure of destiny is one of the best for this. In the past I have tested out cards such as dragon whelp, stuffy doll, and wildfire emissary(more on him and some other creatures later), but the figure is cheap, fast, and fits the curve nice;y. Not to mention he gives you 7 maindeck answers to goblin lackey, which you need to prepare for as goblins is still a top tier deck. A lot of decks will blow removal on him as soon as he becomes 4/4 which is great usually as we have better creatures that you want to keep alive. I originally played 4 but that number has been cut down to 3 which feels right more than anything. He is there in your opening grip often enough and you don’t get to many games where you are stuck with many figures, although it is really doubtful that they will be clogging your hand as they are such efficient creatures. So with 3 in our deck we are down to 4 cards left in the deck. See what I mean when I say there isn’t much wiggle room left in the deck.
In these last four spots you have to run the fourth grindstone in the deck, if you do not run any tutor effects.. I really think only the blue splash can support 3 grindstones, but in theory so could a black or white as you still effectively run 6 grindstones and everyone blows up everything else before the grindstone. The combo may not be as strong as it once was, but consistently getting it within the first four turns is still vital to the decks success especially when you have to combat other combo decks. Yes multiples of the card do suck, but much like the moon effects you want it early if your going to get it. Sometimes it is hard to set up for the combo and wait for the grindstone. It happens. And sometimes you grind them them out to find an Eldrazi in the yard and you lost the game.
So now we have 3 crads left in the deck. It is here you should decide if you want to splash. In my opinion the best cards to splash are enlightened tutor, trinket mage, and cruel tutor. Each card has its strength and weaknesses as does each color. So to address these points I’m going to do it color by color:

White: You get enlightened tutor and Figure is stronger to be powered up by the basic plains you run. Engineered explosives is a card you may want to run in the sideboard, as it provides you with a tutorable target to deal with random shit. Overall the card leads to consistent combos and instant speed is great. Its weaknesses are that your opponent knows what you got and that it is one mana, which sometimes is a boon and other times a hazard. White also gives you absolute law out of the board. This card does help out a lot in the zoo match up. It allows you to blank a lot of their removal and chump block all day as you set up [ for the combo. I did find that it made the match up better, possibly pushing zoo to a 55/45 split in their favor, depending on the build.
Blue: Blue gives you trinket mage and along with that a nice tutor set. I typically ran 4 trinket mages, 3 grindstone, 1 EE, 1 Top while moving Jaya to the board in those list. Blue is strongest in a tempo oriented meta game. Back when Canadian thresh decks were popular along with new horizons, it was probably the best color combination. Often times you would just win by beating with your tutors as those decks had to answer what you tutored first and they did not have enough answers. Those decks have really started to wane in popularity so this option is not as strong anymore. It typically has the slowest combo speed, but more versatility putting you in the control role more often. I also explored tutorable blue creatures, but none really tickled my fancy. Sower was great but hard to consistently land. The new blue lord in interesting and requires some testing, although I think he also requires reworking the deck but it is an interesting card. A noteworthy card though is also man o war. It serves as a tutorable answer to eldrazi which is worth keeping in the back of your mind as you build.
Black: Black gives you cruel tutor and perish, with perish in the board being the main reason to run black. After three events with cruel tutor and a couple months testing I can say playing it instead of the other cards addressed has only lost me one game where an enlightened tutor would have won it. It has set me up though to win multiple games due to its ability to grab anything in your deck. I can’t really advocate that it is stronger than enlightened tutor due to its drawbacks, but it is a good card that should be looked at. I want to note here that I am talking about two cards that have inherent card disadvantage. At a recent event a good player tried to tell me that he would run trinket mage instead of the other two tutors due to card disadvantage. People it is not 1996 anymore, card disadvantage is ok, jut not king. Who the fuck cares if your opponent has one extra card in hand if you’ve won the game. Tempo matters, consistency matters, and sometimes these things trump card advantage. Hell even in limited sometimes card disadvantage is ok if you take out a card of superior quality. This really is something to address in a whole post, but I don’t want you picking trinket mage due to card advantage. As noted above, it helps in the tempo matches as you can just grind pout those games. Now back top black. The main reason to run black is for Perish. The card is sooooooo strong right now. One sided wrath of gods against zoon sound great. It helps in the midrange decks also as they pretty much only run green dorks so it serves as a top deck answer to a bad board state, something we never had before. It handles Knights of the Reliquary so well, that I don’t mind blowing it just to kill one and nothing else. This is the reason why I am still running black as of this posting. It also hits prognitus and survival madness pretty hard, and I hear that deck may be fairly popular these days. The only real question lies in how many in the board. Right now I’m playing 3, but that was when I was extensively testing 3 Cruel Tutors in the main, which I no longer am doing so I might up it to four.
The other card that needs to be discussed is the top. It is an incredibly strong card that helps fix some of the problems of card quality and selection that I addressed earlier. I love the card and have alternated from 3 to 0 and all the numbers in between. If I was playing in an event before Koth becomes legal I would most definitely run 3 with the black splash. Unfortunately I will not be playing in an event before then, so top is out. But if you do choose it, it may be the right choice for your meta. If you have lots of slow decks and rock decks by all means run it as those are the match ups where it is brightest. Me I play with lots of zoo, combo, and merfolk which it really is not that useful in those matchups versus what I plan to run.
For me the final 3 cards start with 2 Koth. We finally get a Planeswalker for the deck. This crad is so strong. Initially I thought he would only excel in the controllish matchups but he really is a house against zoo even. They have to spend time and resources destroying him otherwise he dominates the board and they can not attack through and he serves as a win condition. Currently I’m running two and he has strengthen so many matchups. Rock decks and the like only have 4 main deck answers to him and most likely one or two will be blown trying to keep you from winning earlier. The reach he provides red is amazing to say the least. He literally is the best card printed for this deck since Painter’s servant. I highly encourage all of you to test him and see what you think. Strength he could be the second strongest planeswalker if he wasn’t double red. For us that doesn’t matter so he is amazing.
That leaves us with one card, which to be honest I haven’t settled on it yet. I have tried things from addition beaters(dragon whelp, Figure number 4, and Wildfire Emissary) and they all have strengths and weaknesses. In that group the one I like most is Wildfire as he helps your weak matchups namely zoo and rock decks while largely not changing the others which is ok with me. In a random meta the best card to run is probably Stingscorger. He is strong and versatile and you will see Eldrazi at any event bigger than three rounds. A second Jaya could be added as that card is always good. Shard Phoenix is an option if zoo and goblins, especially goblins, is big in your area. He is a little slow but strong when you hit turn five. I want to address Spinal Villain here. I love the idea of the card. I love its picture, hell I have three copies I would love to play, but the card does not belong in this deck. Without painter he is only good against merfolk and you already dominate that match up so don’t waste the spots. As noted earlier card advantage isn’t the only thing that matters. Jaya does what he does at the expense of a card, but she is never dead. Turning every card into incinerate is really good. If you have the urge to play the spinal villain, just run another copy of Jaya as she really is just a superior card. Currently I am not sure what the final card in my deck will be. I know it will not be top as one seems to random. I’ll give you a list and in what metas they would be the best decision:
1. Viashino Heretec- Deals with artifacts. If you see a lot other than top he is worth pursuing. He is also great versus merfolk and goblins as aether vial is a pain in the ass.
2. Wildfire Emissary-Strongest against zoo and rock type decks. Your mileage may vary depending on the builds of both but being able to blank the best and most popular removal in the format is really nice. Not to mention that they will most likely have to tie up multiple resources trying to take him out frees up time for you to combo. He also plays nice with Koth and moon effects. And I have a soft spot for him since 1997 when he was considered one of the best creatures printed. Think of him as a 3 drop though due to our double mana lands.
3. Vexing Shusher-If you see a lot of blue that isn’t merfolk. He is efficient and great at what he does, but that is very limited. Don’t forget his ability can be stifled
4. Shard phoenix- A beating against goblins. Strength varies depending on the zoo configuration. Awesome against elves although he is a little slow there. A card you should always keep in mind as he serves as an answer to the weenie hordes and is tutorable.
5. Spinal Villain- Already addressed
6. Figure- Another beater. Better than the dragonlord at what he does since instant speed can not be undervalued as we play many instants.
7. Dragon Whelp- A tutorable flyer is really nice. Early builds used him and I did like the card. Unfortunately I cant picture a meta where he is stronger than the cards previously mentioned.
8. Stingscourger- Mentioned above, but very versatile and should be in the 75 someplace at least.
9. Boneshedder-I really like this guy and depending what your meta is like he can really help out against show and tell decks and reanimator(if that is still played).
A note about equipment. Some people use it and love it. I never have in this deck but I can see a lot of positives with it. I haven’t tested it as I think it will take the deck down a more aggro road, which is not a place I think it needs to go right now. That being said, I would love to discuss this further with others and talk about their testing. Currently I can’t see how I would fit more than one in the deck and that seems random, but random jitt or SoFI could be totally awesome.

The deck I’m running as of 10/2010
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painter’s Servant
4 Magus of the Moon
3 SSG
3 Figure of Destiny
1 Jaya Ballard
1 Wildfire Emissary
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome mox
4 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Koth
2 Blood Moon
5 Mountains
2 Badlands( I was sad to switch out blue and white as I lost my FBB to unlimited but oh well)
4 Blood Stained Mire
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Side
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Trinisphere
3 Perish
1 Boneshredder ( Could easily be fourth Perish)
1 Stingscouger

I’m not going to discuss individual choices for the board here, but I am open to it, but it is def something that is flexible at best.

Matchups:
1. Merfolk- I’ll go 70/30 even though I think it is better. I have never lost a sanctioned match against the folk and I have played some solid players including Starcity open winner Paul Lynch, who is also a really great guy btw. You have to much removal and they only have one counter spell that you care about. Multiple standstills may make it hard and if the Kira times 4 happens things become rougher, but you can still combo right through most of what they have. Jaya is an all-star here. For the board I go – 2 Blood Moon, + 2 Pyroblast. Its that easy. You really shouldn’t have many problems. If they splash then moon effects are stronger and you can switch out one Wildfire(If the splash isn’t white) and a chrome mox. Keep the SSG in as they allow for unfair things and frown town from the opponent when they think daze actually worked. I actually think the black version is the strongest in general, it just happens to be the weakest against us. Swords can complicate things but we have counters and they can’t island walk us. Overall a fairly easy match up. You don’t have to be too aggressive with mulligans but your opening hand will determine which role you pursue. All three avenues are affective against the blue fish.
2. Zoo- Ever so slightly in their favor, but a lot of that depends on build to be honest. I really feel if we could fit 3-4 magma jets in the board this matchup might actually swing in our favor slightly but right now I don’t know what to remove except the crypts but they really help out in other matches. In general the beat down role is not that effective here. Try to lock them out or slow them down with moon effects and then combo out. That really seems to be the best strategy. Try to draw out their removal with Figures, Jaya, and magus leaving painter to live. Early moon effects really matter with Blood Moon being the best. Of course you still need to put preasure on them. For boarding I recommend -6 blast effects, + 3 Perish, +2 Blood Moon, +Stingscorger. The Stingscourger is a little odd here I know, but blast effects and calling blue is generally bad as they can board in blast effects( In truth you want them too). He can slow the beats down, reset a grim lavamancer, or buy you two turns from goyf beat down saving a substantial amount of life. In this match up it is sort of a war of attrition. An early moon effect can really carry you. Koth shines here also. They have to try and kill him and pull out all the stops to do so. In that time you can spend your energies moving closer to establishing the combo. Don’t be afraid to Perish for only two creatures. You want to keep your life total as high as possible and 2 for 1 is still great. Just don’t get greedy.
3. Countertop- there are a lot of variants, but the more colors they run the easier it is for you. Even the thopter foundry versions are fairly straightforward for you to beat. Moon effects have various levels of success with early being better than late. The question that comes up is due you attack the counterbalance or fight through it. That is not an answer question to answer. It really depends on your hand. If you already have 2 Figures on the board fuck it and go for the throat. Imperial Recruiter for Jaya is strong as they don’t have many 3 drops to float and you can force them to top and blast the counterbalance. In general though I would say point a blast effect at the counterbalance if they tap out or try to counter it. Boarding is pretty simple. Lightning bolt is fairly mundane in this matchup so – 2 bolts for + 2 blast effects. If they run thopter take out the other two bolts and bring in crypts. Yes they can easily play around them, but we aren’t using them to blow them out, only to buy time. If it slows down their board development for a turn and makes them commit mana they otherwise wouldn’t spend then great it did its job. In general a fast combo will take this one as will moon lock down. Koth again shines in this matchup. Jace doesn’t affect him and since ours comes on line faster we win. They really have no way to attack him so play around force and you should be golden. You run more counters then they do and since our curve is effectively 3 you are not as prone to losing to the soft lock of counterbalance. I will not put a number on this matchup, but I will say with some practice it should def be favorable, with certain builds being far easier than others.
4. Lands- It’s a bad deck and a bye. Moving on.
5. Dredge- It’s a favorable matchup. Probably somewhere north of 60%. Moon effects are great at slowing them down. Blast effects can stop some of their early busted draws. And lightning bolt your own dudes is a great way to get rid of bridge from below. I can’t remember the last time I lost a sanctioned match against dredge. Boarding you can bring in the crypts for Jaya and Wildfire Emissary. Otherwise your standard list is fairly strong against them. Going for the combo is the best means to victory. I haven’t tested this matchup since Koth was added, but nothing should change.
6. Goblins- Goblins is an interesting matchup. Lackeys and weirdings are your main concern here. Lackey does broken shit and we can lose key guys to weirding. Unlike most red based decks they do not have the removal to readily stop your combo. Moon effects are still ok as they keep them off black or green and stop port antics. This should be a favorable matchup, but don’t hesitate to blow up a vial once it gets three counters on it. Its their creatures bigger than 3 mana that are the problem. Lightning bolts are huge here as they take out warchiefs before things get crazy. The aggro route is not a great idea in this matchup. Combo is the strongest and I would focus my efforts there. I don’t really love boarding much of anything here. Maybe perish and turn the board green, but otherwise stick to your stock list. This matchup is even to favorable, depending on what colors they are running.
7. Survival- There are many different builds but I don’t think any of them are really favorable. Bant survival is very unfavorable. Haven’t tested it much since koth came out but good creatures, with Iona, and eldrazi spell hard times for you. Survival madness is another story. Currently I am 2-2 in sanctioned play, but one of those loses were to a built with Progenitus and I milled with lethal on the board and said wtFuck. Stifle is a pain and they are fast, but lightning bolt slows them down and I think normally they combo should work here. Fast moon effects with powered up Figures and Koth will also greatly help. If you get Koth’s ultimate, survival madness can not win.
8. Rock decks- These decks use to be 40/60 at best I would say. I never had much luck with them even with fast moon effects. Sometimes you can catch a bad mana base, but they have so much removal. Koth really changes that. They are still an uphill fight, but he is very hard for them to deal with. Here is another deck where they can not win once his ultimate hits. Unfortunately the board doesn’t have many cards for this matchup. Perish is still strong and worth putting in, but what to take out is harder to say. Bolts are still really strong and painter with REB is also something that can really swing this matchup. Unfortunately REB is dead without painter so I would keep that in mind. You will not win the war of attrition with this deck though. Games 2 and 3 get together as they have grip. Your best bet is to lay an early moon, slow them down, force them to disrupt the combo, then hopefully ride Koth to victory.
9. Combo- Im putting it all together as this is getting to long and really you will approach it all the same. Belcher is fast. You can beat the goblin horde but if they belcher you, you will die. Trinisphere helps out a lot here as it buys you time. Our combo is a turn slower than them. You need to aggressively mulligan in this matchup, really only keeping hands with first turn disruption or second turn kill. Storm decks are much the same except they are slower but more consistent. Our combo is as fast as theirs but theirs is more consistent. Trinisphere serves as a nice slow down but it is not as strong as in the belcher match up. Painter with a blast is another great opener against both decks. For boarding take out -4 bolts and -2 blood moons and bring in the remaining blasts and trinisphere.

I’m already at nine pages so I will end it here. I didn’t discuss cards that didn’t make the cut really, but I would be lad to as time permits. I can go into more depth on the color choices if people want. And if you want more info on matchups and plans of attack I’ll be happy to do what I can.

Seth

Hey folks!

After finally putting together this deck last week I went 4-1-1 at our monthly legacy event, finishing 4th out of 40 players.
My Matchups were:

1. Mono U Faerie Fish -> Win 2:1
2. Zoo -> Loss 1:2
3. Rock -> Win 2:0
4. Death & Taxes with green -> Win 2:0
5. Zoo -> WIN 2:1
6. Vengevine Madness -> ID

The deck was a blast to play although I only got 2 matchups with U out of my 6 rounds. I played a mono r build with 1 Koth/1 SDT because I couldn't get my hands on a second one and I expected a lot of tempo decks, as usual. But this time there wasn't around so much tempo and merfolk. If the meta continues to develop in this direction I will definitely play the black splash for perish.

Speaking of that, thanks for your huge post/primer, sroncor1. It was a great guideline for me and I want more of that! =D I'm interested in more of that matchup analysis, especially against more of those established, non-dtb decks.

If anybody wants to know more on my matchups please let me know.

Due to the fact I'm a fan of tutorable targets, I'm testing this deck in its RW variant with the following cards Tutors/Top Deck Manipolator:

- 3x Enlightned Tutors
- 3x Sensei's Divining Top

This week I'll try to put in place and test a list where I can play WW cards without particular problems with moon effects, IF it works we'll be able to play all the targets that are used in Thopter Foundry as:

- Moat
- Humility

instead of single targets as:

- Relic of Progenitus
- Pithing Needle
- Oblivion Ring

About zoo or other aggro decks I've actually exchanged the number of Moon vs Magus, the deck is less aggressive but with the help of Mother of Runes, if we control 1-2 turns there is the possibility to create the new planeswalker emblem that should burn all it's creatures in few turns.

I hope to recognize all these ideas in a playable list!

If we want to play a black splash I would be happy to use a Yixlid Jailer maindeck and tutors again, burning wish are as cool as no mana intensive and we could always have access to our sideboard with cards as:

- peris/firespout
- discard effects
- chainer's edict
- shattering spree

I know these are just ideas but IMHO we need to have always a metagamed build for a top8 chance.

I am missing two recruiters so I just replaced them with Distorting Lenses and it worked out amazingly well. Anyone else ever mess with that card before? It took the place of not being able to tutor up a painter and goes through heavy creature hate better anyway. It's slower and only hits permanents, but it's not horrid and I ended up adding a third since I liked it so well.

If you have the problem with people blasting the painter all the time (ala Zoo), it's well worth the time to try it. At the worst it turns your Blasts into something useful until painter can stick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahcmai

I am missing two recruiters so I just replaced them with Distorting Lenses and it worked out amazingly well. Anyone else ever mess with that card before? It took the place of not being able to tutor up a painter and goes through heavy creature hate better anyway. It's slower and only hits permanents, but it's not horrid and I ended up adding a third since I liked it so well.

If you have the problem with people blasting the painter all the time (ala Zoo), it's well worth the time to try it. At the worst it turns your Blasts into something useful until painter can stick.

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What did you take out for the third Lens?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahcmai

If you have the problem with people blasting the painter all the time (ala Zoo), it's well worth the time to try it. At the worst it turns your Blasts into something useful until painter can stick.

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Sorry but these lens doen't works, opponent's library is not a permanent and all other permanents are mainly creatures or hate vs creature so just look for a RW version with Enlightned Tutor, use Mother of Runes and protect your painter's or defenders!

@comeback: Does your deck still need recruiters or are you replacing them with Enlightened Tutor and Top Engine?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by comeback

Sorry but these lens doen't works, opponent's library is not a permanent and all other permanents are mainly creatures or hate vs creature so just look for a RW version with Enlightned Tutor, use Mother of Runes and protect your painter's or defenders!

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He wasn't talking about the libary but rather using it to turn actual permanents blue so that you can blow them up with blasts.


As far as these RW versions go...not really Imperial Painter then is it?

The distorting lens is an interesting idea, but I think it fails on a fundamental level. Sure it activates the blast effects and jaya but it is dead without them. It also doesnt activate the combo which is still important even if the combo is not as strong as it once was.

For the zoo matchup your best bet is to try and win the attrition war. The have good removal but you play a bunch of cards they have to answer immediately. Moon effects are great here and I totally understand a 3/3 split. For me there are still a bunch of match ups where the moon effect isn't as strong and I like at least having a grey oager there.

I feel that once everyone tries koth they will try and put a third in the deck. He really is so strong only being weak in the combo match up.

As noted earlier I love the white splash and it does give you a more consistent combo but for the current meta I would recommend black as it actually improves your chances against those decks which give you trouble. I do not think cards like moat belong in the deck. I may be wrong but double white and coming down fourth turn doesn't seem to really improve any matchups.

I have a ton more notes I'd be happy to type up if you want them about matchups. Might take me a week as school is picking up and I'm going to start regular writing for a magic website soon I hope. But if zoo is popular in your area I suggest using my most recent list. I know it's a small sample size but I went 2-0 against zoo in my most recent event

Figure of destiny was the card I yanked. A couple extra bolts took the place of the others and the Lens took the last spot. I was never big on him.

The lens is good for hurting lands mainly. I typically use it to manascrew people so I buy time to actually get a recruiter or painter. I just hated not having a painter out and having all these dead cards if I was playing against mono-b control or something that the rest of the cards were total dead against. We have a few of them here since Zoo, Goblins, and Dreadstill are played a ton and it's a pretty decent answer for those.

I can see where your coming from although just to activate blast effects seems weak. You mentioned that you have a lot of goblins in your meta, and figure is great in that match up. He buys time on the ground while you assemble the combo. You have to ensure you have sufficent ways to kill a first turn lackey bc otherwise the board can get out of control. Dreadstill should not be a problem. It's not as easy as Merfolk but they only play 4 cards that we care about. Just board in the extra blast effects.

Zoo on the other hand is an interesting idea. Having one mana vindicates that they can not stop seems strong. Having 12 targeted removal against them seems great. That is something I haven't even thought of. It warrants testing for sure. I'm going to try it out this weekend.

I guess one mana vindicates are good against Zoo, but what about the cards from the board?

I use pyroclasm on the board currently. Should this be firespout or is it a wasted slot either way?
I had originally been using pyroclasm since it didn't kill painter, but it doesn't seem to kill much else either anymore.

yeah you have to use firespout now. And your right it kills Painter. But since all their dudes basically have 3 toughness you are stuck. at times you could get two steppe lynx and a grim lavamancer, but by the time they have that much shit on the board your life total is already low and I would be scared of the big green creatures in their hand. You basically need a wrath effect these days to make it really work. To be honest incinerate or chain lightning are both prob. better than pyroclasm anymore.

Hello, dear Imperial Painter fans! I just recently got my last recruiter so I decided it is time for me to join the discussion. I'm runnin the moro R build with black splash for sideboard perish.

I have tested 2 Solemn Simulacrum in the place of SDT and i have to say it seems pretty good so far. It allows me to keep a hand with 2x tomb/city with no mountains, it is useful as a blocker and of course, it beats too. Sure, SDT also allows 2x tomb hands, but when I have a mountain in hand I like to use it for 1st turn Figure/Grindstone or save mana for bolt/blast. SDT eats so much mana during the game that it's really, really irritating when I have to choose between, blast, bolt, figureboost or top - and it is the card I always side out between games.


Solemn:
+ card & mana advantage
+ blocks and beats
- 4 mana casting cost, which is really not THAT big of a deal with 4 tombs and 4 citys...

SDT:
+ card selection
- vs aggro SDT is almost always bad
- mana sink

Oh yes I almost forgot! Fetchlands + SDT is always a great way to manipulate draw, but I'm running 7 MD moon-effects so I rarely get the opportunity to shuffle (except early game). I rather just play out the moonlock ASAP.

I'm happy I've come to the point where I have 2 possible free slots for the deck. Usually it goes the other way.. where I have 65 cards and I have to choose what to cut - while every single cards seems mandatory.

Any thoughts?

What is your current full list that you are running. I still feel you should have two koth in the deck. He is just that strong.