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Except Stoneforge would be a more expensive and worse Cranial Plating. And Steelshaper's Gifts just sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
No offense, but if you say you've begun playtesting Affinity, you should probably just stick to practicing Affinity before you think about reinventing the deck. Affinity is a hard deck to play, and if you don't understand how the deck works, then it's very easy to incorrectly evaluate the deck's components, such as in your case, Thoughtcast.
No need to be rude, Shawon.
The thing about blockers is, you shouldn't be worried about blockers. Ornithopter, Skirge, and Champion all have evasion.Quote:
Well, like I said, I have only been playtesting this, but dispatch seems good for getting blockers out of the way an removing threats.
And drawing two cards seems worse than either playing stoneforge or steelshapers gift. Isn't plating what you are trying to find anyway?
Although, I wouldn't be running Frogmites. Free 2/2's are nice, but rather underwhelming when you have much stronger options. Memnite is fine since it enables Metalcraft for Mox Opal's, but I don't see a point in Frogmites, especially without Master's or Overseer's.
Regarding Thoughtcast, I don't get what the problem is. Paying a single blue mana isn't slowing your tempo down much at all, and you're drawing 2 cards off it. Affinity empties its hand quickly and wants to refill. Of course you're still going to run SFM and Tezzeret too, but that's no reason to not run Thoughtcast. Steelshaper's Gift is a solid argument against Thoughtcast, since it tutors directly for Plating. I've yet to test it, so it could be better, but a draw 2 for a single mana is still absurdly good.
the frogmites could be ornithopters, I'm not settled on that.
As for SFM being like a thoughtcast, in many cases it is. First if you have a drum, it only costs one mana, and in exchange you get a creature and a plating(2 cards), you also have a way to sneak the plating into play.
The problem with thoughtcast is unlike vintage where digging 3 deep finds you insane cards, affinity is running things like mox opal, memnite, and springleaf drum. The argument I am echoing(I didn't come up with it myself) is that the sure thing is better than the random top two in a deck like this. Consider an opening hand like,
Mox, Skirge, Memnite, nexus, Ancient Den, thoughtcast, dispatch. I wouldn't want to gamble on that.
But the same hand with SFM in the slot held by thoughtcast means you can tutor up plating turn one.
There's a big difference between one and two mana, so you can't compare THoughtcast to Stoneforge Mystic. Also, Affinity aggressively mulligans, given the deck runs 15-16 lands, even with 8 additional mana sources (Opal/Drum). Thoughtcast helps you recover lost card advantage from aggressive mulligans. Stoneforge Mystic won't help you there.
Stoneforge Mystic in Affinity is exactly winmore. It only helps you when you really need Plating, but in every situation when you need to swarm-aggro your opponent or you need to block your opponent to stop damage, it's terrible.
And this might not seem important, but being able to surprise your opponent isn't something to be ignored. I like having my opponent think "He probably doesn't have Plating, he would've already played it, I think it's safe to tap out..." and then topdeck Plating :)
I don't mean to hijack this thread so I apologize if I am speaking crazy but I wanted to respond and see if anypart of these arguments gain traction. Let me break this down.
SFM is twice as much mana, however, it can also be used with springleaf drum to make mana something I have found that useful. Second, the fact that one third of the deck is mana is precisely why thoughtcast is bad, you draw bad cards like mox opal or memnite most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Plating is the best card in the deck. Stoneforge can carry it, Stoneforge can block, Stoneforge can fetch jitte too which can beat agro swarm. I don't know if its win more, seems like it can just help you win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Opponents know that affinity is playing plating, some play worse than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
What are you trying to say with your first sentence? That Stoneforge Mystic isn't a manasink or a more expensive Cranial Plating because you can tap it with Drum? :eyebrow: That's still not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
Who says you're just drawing Opal and Memnite with Thoughtcast? If you think that's all you're doing with Thougthcast, then you need to play with the deck a little more. Thoughtcast helps you recover from mulligans and sets you up your mana or your hand to be able to cast a chain of spells or a bomb next turn. The only way you can understand this is by playing more games with Thoughtcast in the deck.
Although, I have been trying out 3 Thoughtcast instead of 4. I don't think it's a 'sacred cow' but it's pretty damn good and I think you need a better reason than splashing a third color for Stoneforge Mystic.
It is win more, because Cranial Plating isn't a 1-card combo that wins the game once it resolves. If you are justifying Stoneforge Mystic by saying it can also fetch Jitte, you're just better off running more Jitte if you have that much trouble with creature decks.Quote:
Plating is the best card in the deck. Stoneforge can carry it, Stoneforge can block, Stoneforge can fetch jitte too which can beat agro swarm. I don't know if its win more, seems like it can just help you win.
More than that, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't actually address specific matchups. What matchups are you losing because you can't find Plating fast enough? Etched Champion is a 2/2 for 3 and it hardly seems fit in a fast deck, but it actually helps matchups such as Maverick or Stoneblade because they can't rely on blocking your attackers or using Swords and Snapcasting Swords to stop you, that's why it's in the deck.
Glimpse/thoughtcast, same diff?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Hahaha... No. And way to take a different argument I made out of context.
i have played affinity for years, as it was my first mtg-deck, and it still is somewhat a petdeck (just sad that arcbound ravager is no good anymore^^), and i can tell your that thoughtcast is awesome in this deck.
IMO if an affinity deck is playing blue, thoughtcast should be an auto-4-off, actally i would have allways wanted more than 4 thoughtcasts in the deck, which was the only reason i tried the erayo/affinity version of the deck with glimpse (did not really like it)
one mana is a big difference in this deck, even with acceleration, and thoughtcast gives you the needed card-advantage for just 1 mana, which is good, and helps chain spells afterwards, as allready said.
sure stoneforge mystic is card-advantage as well, but IMO stoneforge mystic is not that good in a deck that tries to kill in the 3rd/4th turn. (but i have to admit that in hannis mono-W list which is a bit more midrangeoriented i like them a lot)
hope this helps
On another topic, here is a recent sideboard I've been using:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Cursed Totem
My latest additions to the sb are the Cabal Therapies and Jitte as well as the Phyrexian Metamorph. Jitte has been the bane of my existence and it is single-handedly the reason I lose game 1 against creature decks. At first I considered splashing red for Ancient Grudge or perhaps Crush as effective hate, but after seeing another Affinity list on MWS do it I realized, why not just fight fire with fire? So I added some Jitte of my own to the sb. Jitte is an artifact anyway, so it has decent synergy with the deck.
I think the Cabal Therapy has a lot of value that only seems to be realized the more I play with it. Of course, I have to improve on my blind calls, but given that eight-twelve of my creatures are free, I can definitely double Therapy in one turn, which can be devastating against any combo deck and sometimes control as well.
Phyrexian Metamorph is a reactive solution to any big creature cheated via Reanimated or Show and Tell. I like how Metamorph can be used proactively as an additional threat by copying a Plating or Master.
am i the only one who finds memnite and frogmite completely useless? like there are much better cards to put in those slots
It's easy to think that Frogmite and Memnite are useless considering they're both inherently weak cards. However, this is Affinity, where the deck's whole is better than the sum of its parts. Ever since its inception, its core theme has always been using inherently weak cards to create brutally fast synergies. Without Frogmite and Memnite, Thoughtcast becomes more expensive, and Springleaf Drum will just sit there while you can't cast your Master or Etched Champion.
I used to take out Memnites for sb cards games 2 and 3, but I realized how useful they can be to activate Mox Opal turn 1, which is pretty important. However, I do take out Frogmite since it's not always free.
For what it's worth, my Puresteel build doesn't run Frogmites or Memnites.
@Shawon: What does your current build look like?
http://deckbox.org/system/images/mtg/cards/3600.jpg
For the record, you should always run...
Phyrexian Walker (0 CMC for 0/3)
over
Memmnite. (0 CMC for 1/1)
Reasons
-Doesn't die to Elesh Norn if it gets snuck out. Allowing you to possibly keep Metalcraft open for a Dispatch (Reanimator)
-Can Block Noble Hirearchs and Dryad Arbors (If Maverick is swinging with them)
-Sword of Fire and Ice doesn't Kill it.
-I would rather have a Cranial Plating on a 0/3 rather than a 1/1. (Id rather have it on something else, but worst case scenario...)
-They CAN block smaller things like 1/1s and 2/2s unlike Memnite who you end up trading with.
-It doesn't die as easy to things like Jitte, Forked Bolt/FireIce,Grim Lavamancer. If your running Metalcraft based cards (Mox Opal, Dispatch)
These may not be a huge deal but having an artifact that has a little more toughness can be crucial to keeping your Metalcraft going.
@Anarky87:
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MBS] Signal Pest
4 [M11] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
2 [NPH] Vault Skirge
3 [SOM] Etched Champion
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
Regarding your PM, for budget purposes City of Traitors can be replaced with Crystal Vein. I wouldn't run Ancient Tomb because there's too much red in the format (Delver, Burn).
You make some interesting points, however, I think you're underestimating Memnite as an attacker. Memnite is at its best when you have it down Turn 1 with Signal Pest. Each Memnite you play has 2 power with Pest on the field. Same goes for Master of Etherium.Quote:
Originally Posted by UnsungHero
The 1 damage Memnite deal goes a long way. I've dealt exactly lethal with a Memnite + Plating several times.
Is Ravager relevant at all in Affinity lists nowadays?
Maindeck, no. With Metalcraft I think that Ravager is counterproductive now. However, I play it in the sideboard for Dredge so I can get rid of their BridgesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I want to remove it, but I'm not sure what to put in the deck in its place.
I use Steel Overseer, but that's because I run Redffinity and go the pure Aggro route.
I guess that would depend on what you're currently running. Share a list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I'm not at home right now, at the gfs, I'll post my list when I go back. It's pretty similar to 4eak's list from a few posts back, with Tezz and such.
Can't seem to find 4eak's list but I'm on my phone ATM. Blindly, I would max out my Champions and Master of Etheriums. Champions are back breaking against anything that relies on non-fliers, and Masters are mini Platings on all your dudes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
This is basically what I'm running right now, with a few changes to md and sb, but pretty much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Hey guys, I'm in a bit of a time crunch and need a deck for a Legacy event tonight, fast. Due to recent events, most of my Legacy decks are in pieces and the ones that are closest to completion I can't get loans for, so I'm looking to port my Modern affinity build to Leagacy. Anyone have a decent aggro list? I also need SB suggestions
Cards I don't have and won't be able to acquire:
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
City of Traitors
Ancient Tomb
My modern list:
4x Memnite
3x Ornithopter
4x Vault Skirge
3x Signal Pest
3x Arcbound Ravager
4x Steel Overseer
4x Etched Champion
4x Cranial Plating
3x Springleaf Drum
1x Torpor Orb
4x Galvanic Blast
2x Steelshaper's Gift
2x Mountain
1x City of Brass
2x Glimmervoid
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Mox Opal
4x Darksteel Citadel
Other cards I have that could be used in affinity:
1x Signal pest
1x Ornithopter
1x Springleaf Drum
1x Arcbound Ravager
1x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
2x Ancient Den
3x Great Furnace
2x Tree of Tales
+1 Signal Pest
+1 Ornithopter
+1 Springleaf Drum
+4 Vault of Whispers (don't underestimate Cranial Plating's :b::b: ability)
+1 Arcbound Ravager
+3 Great Furnace
-4 Blinkmoth Nexus
-1 Torpor Orb
-2 Mountain
-2 Steelshaper's Gift
-1 City of Brass
-1 Etched Champion
No access to Thoughtcast, Frogmite, or Disciple of the Vault? They're all commons.
I got rid of most of my collection months ago, and they were in there :/ I've been meaning to pick them up again, just haven't gotten around to it yet haha. I think I have 1 frogmite in my binder though
Thoughtcast is a must for Affinity, IMHO. It gives you gas when you need it.
Vs that list I'm running Ornithopters instead of the ravagers. Also still running the Myr Enforcers. Vault Skirge is another consideration, although I'd much rather spend 1 mana on a SpringleafQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
The more lists I look at, I like Stoneforge Mystic over Thoughtcast. Cranial Plating is just so good, I'd rather have it than 2 random cards that may/may not win me the game.
I don't really like SFM in Affinity, but thats just me.
EDIT: I was also thinking of maybe moving the number of Tezz, AOB from 4 to 3, because I've been finding that when I have one in play, I'd rather not draw another.
Where I find Stoneforge lacking is the fact that you're really going all in on the Cranial Plating plan. I prefer Thoughtcast, not only because of the mini-Ancestral it provides, but because it opens the deck up to blue. Blue will give you access outlets that will allow for more diverse threats such as MoE and Tezzeret. Compared to Modern, where a resolved Tezz usually ends up in the bin the next turn, I find that he usually ends the game when he lands in Legacy.
I added Pest instead of Orni, and I haven't been too happy about it. I think I'll go back to Orni, the 1-mana is where I have the biggest issue.
I think the people who bring up Stoneforge Mystic neglect to ask themselves "Why would I run this over Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?" or "If I already run Tezzeret, why would I want to run Ancient Den over Darksteel Citadel?" That last question is pretty much what I asked myself when I was running Galvanic Blast, except with Great Furnace instead of Ancient Den, obviously.
Tezzeret targeting Darksteel Citadel is your trump strategy against Deed-based decks and it's a viable strategy against burn-based decks, and sometimes even the mirror.
Run both. Pest is meant to be used in conjunction with Thopter/Memnite, not as a replacement.Quote:
I added Pest instead of Orni, and I haven't been too happy about it. I think I'll go back to Orni, the 1-mana is where I have the biggest issue.
I changed my mind on Tezz, I'm definitely keeping 4 of him in my deck. He's amazing at what he does, so I think I'm gonna give him another shot.
Does anyone have an updated Tezz Affinity list I could look at?
This is my current mid-range Tezz Affinity version, pasted from MWS. I haven't changed it or tested it much in a while. Just glancing at the list, I think I may need to add another land and maybe swap Galvanic Blast for Dispatch, but I'm not sure. I use Krosan Grip in the sb, even without Tree of Tales, because I can still get colored mana through Mox and Drum.
// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
3 [MR] Great Furnace
// Creatures
4 [10E] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [MBS] Signal Pest
4 [SOM] Etched Champion
// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
I'm not sure what to cut for the 16th land (i'd put in another great furnace or a tree of tales). As for blast vs dispatch, I think blast is better in 90% of matchups. What creature is there that you want to kill that has more than 4 toughness?
That and you can't send a dispatch to the dome as a finisher.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostGrown
That's like saying you can run Gaddock Teeg in Merfolk or Goblins because you have Aether Vial to put it on the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin