All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Loam replaces the regular draw by it's dredge ability, works only well with multiple lands in the grave and once you shuffle them all via Brain-/jace-storming into your library the cardadvantage is gone. That is a significant difference

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Because Tax magically always trigger? Both are conditional, but tax has the worst restriction, especially for a control deck. Loam allow you to play your game (answering threats) early on and then get card advantage when it will really matter, from midgame on.

Having Jace + Tax active is nearly impossible against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblin, Ichorid, Elves and so on.

Unban Tax + Vise + twist = no changes in legacy. I would take a bet on it if only WotC had the balls to unrestrict all those cards at once.

Tax could make Path to Exile and Co. really good.

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Life from the Loam is approximately a hundred times better than Land Tax. The card represents no threat at all. It's probably the least powerful card that's ever been banned in this format, including the old 1.5 cards like Berserk and Regrowth and even Braingeyser.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

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Not only to agree with you, but if you replace 'Land tax' with 'Memory Jar', and the 'much less broken' with 'absolutely broken', you have my stance on Jar. I can't take people seriously when they entertain Jar not being busted in legacy.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Life from the Loam is approximately a hundred times better than Land Tax. The card represents no threat at all. It's probably the least powerful card that's ever been banned in this format, including the old 1.5 cards like Berserk and Regrowth and even Braingeyser.

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I still believe that the only reason Land Tax is still on the ban list is the time issue. Also, the only reason Dragon is still banned IMO is the random draws the combo generates.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Not only to agree with you, but if you replace 'Land tax' with 'Memory Jar', and the 'much less broken' with 'absolutely broken', you have my stance on Jar. I can't take people seriously when they entertain Jar not being busted in legacy.

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All of these posts are ignoring why I and others are posting cards like this. It gets fucking boring to just talk about "acceptable" cards all day long, especially when the arguments about those cards have happened approximately 32675475478 times already. I would MUCH rather think about what would happen if WOTC dropped a bomb like Jar on the format than the little that would likely happen if cards like Tax or Twist came off.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

All of these posts are ignoring why I and others are posting cards like this. It gets fucking boring to just talk about "acceptable" cards all day long, especially when the arguments about those cards have happened approximately 32675475478 times already. I would MUCH rather think about what would happen if WOTC dropped a bomb like Jar on the format than the little that would likely happen if cards like Tax or Twist came off.

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It is a nice thought exercise, sure. But in the same post to list a bunch of cards you'd like to see unbanned then claim you'd "like to see desire come off too, but it might be too powerful"... That implied to me you don't think cards on this unban list are too powerful. And I'd have to disagree with Jar being remotely safe. And that is where I am coming from.

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

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WotC would never ban an answer card (drain isn't an answer card, it's an engine). If anything they'll ban SnT or Brainstorm. Especially if next week Hive mind continue to place in tournaments WotC will cry all over and ban SnT because it make design space "narrower" ("wee i can't design anymore a 15 mana creature that win the game, how fucking bad!" maybe using an hardcast clause next time? so zzz).

Also we are still waiting for Bad Tax and Bad Vise, thx.

More unbannings, less bannings, I say. Mana Vault, Earthcraft, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

More unbannings, less bannings, I say. Mana Vault, Earthcraft, etc.

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Vault is too good, see the thread of "unban decklist challenge".

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Vault is too good, see the thread of "unban decklist challenge".

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*Yawn* Until the card is unbanned, we'll never know if it is actually "too good." Grim Monolith and Metalworker haven't turned the format upside down. Otherwise, we have no precedent for Vault as it has been banned for the entire existence of the format.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

*Yawn* Until the card is unbanned, we'll never know if it is actually "too good." Grim Monolith and Metalworker haven't turned the format upside down. Otherwise, we have no precedent for Vault as it has been banned for the entire existence of the format.

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A decklist that is actually too strong is pretty good evidence. Of course, if you prefer theorycrafting, that's ok too.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

A decklist that is actually too strong is pretty good evidence. Of course, if you prefer theorycrafting, that's ok too.

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Even if such a decklist exists, whether it is "too strong" or not would be based on subjective criteria. For example, saying that ANT with Mana Vault shits all over zoo is irrelevant, as ANT without it already does so. You would need to test the deck against all of its bad matchups - if they all of a sudden became positive, then the card is indeed a problem. I actually might do this myself at some point with various Storm decks - Mana Vault, Mind's Desire, Jar, etc, running whatever deck it was against a gaunlet of Team America, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold, MUD or Chalice Aggro, and Merfolk (the latter for the "coin flip" matchup).

Wizards should just print fixed versions of banned cards, such as Survival of the Fittest where you exile a card from your hand instead of discarding it (which kills Ooze combo, Retainers combo, Vengevine), or a mix between Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor, using the worst of all three (Sorcery that costs BB and 3 life and puts a card on top of your library). If Grim Tutor sucks, and Demonic Tutor is broken, then a topdeck 2-mana tutor that costs life should be OK on power-level. Perhaps even Necroptence that costs BBBB or Balance that costs 1WW would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Even if such a decklist exists, whether it is "too strong" or not would be based on subjective criteria. For example, saying that ANT with Mana Vault shits all over zoo is irrelevant, as ANT without it already does so. You would need to test the deck against all of its bad matchups - if they all of a sudden became positive, then the card is indeed a problem. I actually might do this myself at some point with various Storm decks - Mana Vault, Mind's Desire, Jar, etc, running whatever deck it was against a gaunlet of Team America, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold, MUD or Chalice Aggro, and Merfolk (the latter for the "coin flip" matchup).

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I dunno if everyone here lately is purposely trolling or high as robbie williams, but what you're saying has already been done. Not every card has been tested obviously, and testing isn't perfect since it ignore the shift in the meta, however that's a starting point and go beyond the usual "OMG UNBAN OMG".

Also i'd like you to avoid assuming that i'm retard with that Zoo vs AnT and whatsnot, thanks.

EDIT: i see you've even posted in that topic, so i'm not sure anymore what to do of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

Wizards should just print fixed versions of banned cards, such as Survival of the Fittest where you exile a card from your hand instead of discarding it (which kills Ooze combo, Retainers combo, Vengevine),

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Fauna Shaman
Green Sun's Zenith

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or a mix between Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor, using the worst of all three (Sorcery that costs BB and 3 life and puts a card on top of your library). If Grim Tutor sucks, and Demonic Tutor is broken, then a topdeck 2-mana tutor that costs life should be OK on power-level.

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Cruel Tutor

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Perhaps even Necroptence that costs BBBB or Balance that costs 1WW would be nice.

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Necrologia
Restore Balance

:eek:

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Not every card has been tested obviously, and testing isn't perfect since it ignore the shift in the meta, however that's a starting point and go beyond the usual "OMG UNBAN OMG".

Also i'd like you to avoid assuming that i'm retard with that Zoo vs AnT and whatsnot, thanks.

EDIT: i see you've even posted in that topic, so i'm not sure anymore what to do of this conversation.

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You answered your own question with the first line - not every card has been tested, and they likely haven't been tested against the right decks. I wasn't attempting to make you look like a retard (and apologize if I came off that way), that was just the first example that popped into my head - any deck will seem absurd if you test it against an already awesome matchup.

@ Rukcus: I don't think Necro and Balance can be printed at reasonable costs - their effects are just too absurd (Remember Yawgmoth's Bargain? That's when they tried to "fix" Necro).

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

@ Rukcus: I don't think Necro and Balance can be printed at reasonable costs - their effects are just too absurd (Remember Yawgmoth's Bargain? That's when they tried to "fix" Necro).

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Well, to be fair, by "fixing it" they made it better. "Pay 1 life: Draw a card" is, i'm sure you'll agree, much better than "Pay 1 life: remove the top card of your library from the game and put it into your hand at the beginning of the next end step." While obviously 3 mana is much easier to get to than 6 even if it's more color intense, the effect is much more efficient at enabling combo to win right then and there.

Would Necro that actually delays the draw at 3BBB or 4BB be broken? If you're hardcasting it? Who knows, I'm inclined to say no. But people would find ways of cheating it in, and at that point it'd probably be less balanced.

Like we need more reasons to make Show and Tell broken...

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Originally Posted by Sims

Would Necro that actually delays the draw at 3BBB or 4BB be broken? If you're hardcasting it? Who knows, I'm inclined to say no. But people would find ways of cheating it in, and at that point it'd probably be less balanced.

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Swamp, Ritual x2, Lotus Petal - Necro @ 6 mana. Not any more broken than Ad Nauseum, but any amount of black mana in the cost won't matter. These decks will already be maxing out Ritual effects either way.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

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Yes it would be, with that being said, it will never happen.

Mental Misstep killed a ton of the variation in Legacy, which is no fun.

So... the only bannable card on the poll is LED. That said, misstep might be more hurtful to the format than any other card, including most of the cards on the ban-list.

Really MM should go ...

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

Edit: and Wasteland?

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

Edit: and Wasteland?

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If you're insinuating they'll ban FoW, forget it. That won't happen.

EDIT: If anything, they should ban Jace, which is far more annoying and overpowered when backed up by a pure control deck. But that won't happen either.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

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Nothing happened. If you are referring to Survival, it was banned a few months later because of Vengevine.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Edit: and Wasteland?

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I don't know, I wasn't playing at that time. However, I highly doubt it had anything to do with banning Strip Mine.

And yes, I know where you are trying to go. Answers are never so efficient as to deserve a ban, threats can and some effectively are. Force of Will is an answer, and a crappy one at that, yet it's a basic pillar of the format. Guess what I mean by that.


Back to the topic, I think Survival could shake this blue-infested metagame quite well, it just needs to have Vengevine banned first. It won't happen, though. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they banned Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

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People were going ape shit over Titans, and ignoring Vengevine.

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Edit: and Wasteland?

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People were going ape shit over Cursed Scroll, ProsBloom, Tradewind Rider, and other old stand-ins. That is, Wasteland wasn't even relevant.

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Originally Posted by nonex

And yes, I know where you are trying to go. Answers are never so efficient as to deserve a ban, threats can and some effectively are. Force of Will is an answer, and a crappy one at that, yet it's a basic pillar of the format. Guess what I mean by that.

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That you reach flawed conclusions because you part from flawed assumptions. And then you finish your flawed argumentation by contradicting yourself in one sentence.

Also, the last big tourneys (Jupiter Games North American Legacy Championship Tournament June 11th) and the Spanish LCL June had zero Show and Tell in Top 8 and a blue-infested metagame with Dredge being the only deck able to fight blue (by not casting spells). So banning SnT will not fix anything.

Edit: Just checked it again, the Reanimator had no Show and Tell in his 75.

Arzar, they made a balanced Necro. It's called Phyrexian Arena. Or Greed, if you like. Some effects can't be balanced by mana costs alone. Imagine an enchantment that said "when this comes into play, if this is in play, you win the game.". What's a reasonable mana cost for this card? No one is every going to cast it. They're going to Rector it or SnT it making the mana irrelevant. You'd need a "if you played this from your hand" clause or "if you control a red permanent and a green permanent.". Something to further balance the card.

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

Arzar, they made a balanced Necro. It's called Phyrexian Arena. Or Greed, if you like. Some effects can't be balanced by mana costs alone. Imagine an enchantment that said "when this comes into play, if this is in play, you win the game.". What's a reasonable mana cost for this card? No one is every going to cast it. They're going to Rector it or SnT it making the mana irrelevant. You'd need a "if you played this from your hand" clause or "if you control a red permanent and a green permanent.". Something to further balance the card.

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That's exactly what I said, I don't think that (Necro) effect can be made balanced at a reasonable cost. Glad we agree lol.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Like we need more reasons to make Show and Tell broken...



Swamp, Ritual x2, Lotus Petal - Necro @ 6 mana. Not any more broken than Ad Nauseum, but any amount of black mana in the cost won't matter. These decks will already be maxing out Ritual effects either way.

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It would be busted with SnT or Rector now that the format is slowing down a hair, I'm not going to deny that. Necro-Bargain effects are inherently broken effects. I guess I was just musing in an environment today with 1 mana disenchants and a disenchant effect that prevents you from activating it further, would a necro effect that costs 6 or more mana with the delayed draw trigger be as dangerous as bargain or true-necro? There's a good chance of it, but as you said, you might as well be leaving 1 mana floating and casting Ad Nauseum so you get the cards right away instead of waiting to get the cards and winning the following turn.

And no, I'm not advocating the unbanning of any Necro effect. I'm not that stupid. But considering they once said "there is no mana cost you could print yawgmoth's will at and make it balanced" and then they printed a balanced and arguably more powerful Yawgmoths Will at a higher and more intensive manacost in a different color... there probably could be a balanced necro effect if designs were worked on enough.

You don't consider Ad Nauseum a "balanced" Necro effect?

Necrologia hasn't destroyed any format, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Necrologia hasn't destroyed any format, as far as I know.

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nor has Force of Will ;)

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

You don't consider Ad Nauseum a "balanced" Necro effect?

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I was talking more a permanent based Necro-effect, but yes if you branch out into the 1-shots, Necrologia and Ad Nauseum are fairly balanced necro effects.

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Originally Posted by Pippin

nor has Force of Will ;)

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That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

Right.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

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You just don't like countermagic, do you?

Haven't you guys heard? They are unbanning Black Vise in an attempt to reign in blue. Oops, they forgot about Trinket Mage (and Mental Misstep!). Oh well, you should still pick 'em up while they are only $1. Jk.

Sorry guys, that was kind of dumb...

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Originally Posted by DrJones

That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

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So, let's just say for arguments sake they ban all forms of free countermagic:
Force of Will
Mental Misstep
Counterbalance
Disrupting Shoal
Foil
Thwart
Daze
Mindbreak Trap
etc.

I'm just genuinely curious what you would do to stop basically any combo deck. Let's say Spiral Tide or ANT or Elf Combo, all of which can generate a tremendous amount of mana and draw a tremendous amount of cards.