[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

Is there a reason you're playing Deathrite Shaman and Odious Trow? I think you should be playing two copies of Deathrite Shaman if you're comfortable playing the Trow as a dedicated Pact target with limited utility. I've never in my life blocked with a Trow and regenerated it, so I doubt that's why he's still got a place in your deck.

I really don't like Empty the Warrens in a deck playing Summoner's Pact, but it might be necessary/not as bad as I think it is.

I'd play Slithermuse over Meditate, if the choice is between those two. Blue mana doesn't come easily in this deck, so if I'm going to put extra resources into casting a blue spell, I would want it to be better than my regular D4s.

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Originally Posted by Namida

Is there a reason you're playing Deathrite Shaman and Odious Trow? I think you should be playing two copies of Deathrite Shaman if you're comfortable playing the Trow as a dedicated Pact target with limited utility. I've never in my life blocked with a Trow and regenerated it, so I doubt that's why he's still got a place in your deck.

I really don't like Empty the Warrens in a deck playing Summoner's Pact, but it might be necessary/not as bad as I think it is.

I'd play Slithermuse over Meditate, if the choice is between those two. Blue mana doesn't come easily in this deck, so if I'm going to put extra resources into casting a blue spell, I would want it to be better than my regular D4s.

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I always liked the splitted cards in my decks. You are right, activating shaman is much more better than tow. Anyway it is unprobable to. Activate one or other during a game.

Andar regarding to the blue spell i agree with you.

Sorry for double posting...i had a question..let's see if you can help me: How many of you crack led in response to D4 spell having in hand one or more of the following cards:

Pact
IT
Culling the weak

?

THX!!!

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Sorry for double posting...i had a question..let's see if you can help me: How many of you crack led in response to D4 spell having in hand one or more of the following cards:

Pact
IT
Culling the weak

?

THX!!!

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Cracking LED in response to a D4 has always been hit or miss for me, but I don't know what the part about having stuff in hand matters, you're about to discard it anyways...

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

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Do you have any streams? I'd very much like to see this in action.

Also, it's Culling the Weak, not meek...

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

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Doesn't as nasuem just kill you in this deck? You have, 1 remaining as nas 1 tendrils 1 empty 1 elvish spirit guide, and 8 two mana spells. This looks like you just have really high odds of dying when you cast it.

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Originally Posted by trollking21

Doesn't as nasuem just kill you in this deck? You have, 1 remaining as nas 1 tendrils 1 empty 1 elvish spirit guide, and 8 two mana spells. This looks like you just have really high odds of dying when you cast it.

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All Storm decks have 8 two mana spells in them, 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Cabal Ritual or 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Burning Wish along with 4 Gitaxian Probe as either 2 points of damage before Ad Nauseam, 3 points of damage after Ad Nauseam or 1 point of damage and a dead card after Ad Nauseam and ANT often has 2 Grim Tutor or 2 Burning Wish in addition to that, so that's a completely irrelevant observation. Compared to the other Storm decks I have 1 more Ad Nauseam and a single Elvish Spirit Guide that has 4 Summoner's Pact to remove it from the deck before you Ad Nauseam. Yousimply need threat density, if you find yourself dying to your own Ad Nauseams then I guess -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Grim Tutor or Deathwish could work - but open handing Ad Nauseam in a deck that's designed to have 5 mana on turn 2 via Bayou -> Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor and then Culling the Weak on the following turn is just absolutely worth having 2 Ad Nauseam in your deck.

If you guys want to try it out, I think you can cut Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy in order to play 3 more Xantid Swarms and Brainstorm with minor changes to the manabase for the blue card and just rely on Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact, fetchlands and Xantid Swarms as your fuel for the deck. Screw their Swords to Plowshares, Xantid Swarm still trumps Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and Spell Snare, requires the opponent to Force of Will it and keeps Swords to Plowshares in their deck over any other alternatives. It's a minor annoyance, but considering the synergy the card has with your tutors and accerlation it's an easy 4x if you want it to be.

I'll post some youtube videos once I've got the list settled, I'm really torn on a couple of the card choices for "Zenith Storm" like whether or not I want to splash for blue and Brainstorm and cut the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy package or keep basics in the deck and cut the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy package for Gitaxian Probe or Sensei's Divining Top. SBing in the deck is really tricky, I tend to go -3 Veteran Explorer for +3 Xantid Swarm vs aggro-control and just rely on all of my tutoring power for the single Veteran Explorer and vs discard I'm doing pretty well by SBing out Xantid Swarm and 3 Veteran Explorer for 4 Sensei's Divining Top to just dig, dig, dig. I've also tried some bizzare shit, like playing a MD Living Wish to have a tutor for Xantid Swarm, Veteran Explorer and Phyrexian Tower and you can even sort of use it as business with Slithermuse.

I've really got to screen shot some of my opponent's reactions tho' when they figure out I'm not playing Nic Fit by me raping them in their dirty mouths with my Tendrils. The rogue value of this deck is amazing because it actually doesn't suck.

I swear it's the most fun I've had in Legacy in awhile.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

All Storm decks have 8 two mana spells in them, 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Cabal Ritual or 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Burning Wish along with 4 Gitaxian Probe as either 2 points of damage before Ad Nauseam, 3 points of damage after Ad Nauseam or 1 point of damage and a dead card after Ad Nauseam and ANT often has 2 Grim Tutor or 2 Burning Wish in addition to that, so that's a completely irrelevant observation. Compared to the other Storm decks I have 1 more Ad Nauseam and a single Elvish Spirit Guide that has 4 Summoner's Pact to remove it from the deck before you Ad Nauseam. Yousimply need threat density, if you find yourself dying to your own Ad Nauseams then I guess -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Grim Tutor or Deathwish could work - but open handing Ad Nauseam in a deck that's designed to have 5 mana on turn 2 via Bayou -> Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor and then Culling the Weak on the following turn is just absolutely worth having 2 Ad Nauseam in your deck.

I'll post some youtube videos once I've got the list settled, .

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I was just curious i've played T.E.S. and while we have 8 cmc 2 spells after an ad nas we have 0 five cost and 1 four cost so that is a noticeable difference as well as ad nas in A.N.T is a back up plan. If you say they don't kill you i'll believe you. It'll be intresting to see the videos when they go up

Came up with another possible innovation for the deck list, added a Dosan the Falling Leaf and now the deck can use either Summoner's Pact or Green Sun's Zenith as, albeit very expensive, disruption cards on the turn you're trying to go off instead of on the following turn.

So far the MD is performing really well and I think it's a strict improvement over Entomb because that card just sucked vs Deathrite Shaman. The deck is about as fast as ANT on average tho' it's a bit inconsistent without the 12 to 16 cantrips. I think taking a long hard look at Sensei's Divining Top is in order.

How are the Diabolic Intents in this deck? I'm asking because they are really hard to find and I'm wondering if there's any possible replacement for them.

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Originally Posted by .Ix

How are the Diabolic Intents in this deck? I'm asking because they are really hard to find and I'm wondering if there's any possible replacement for them.

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Awesome and absolutely necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

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I thought about GSZ but dropped the idea because Entomb was more flexible but I'd encourage you to try it if you like how it plays.

I'd experiment with cutting Explorers if you are going heavy on GSZ, cutting GSZ/Pacts and working out splits.. and it looks like you'll be going off turn 3/4/5 more often than with the Entomb list's at turn 2/3/4. I think playing a slower storm variant has its advantages; it could well be the answer to a control metagame and would do well if that metagame counterbalances the control decks with Nic fit-and/or GB mid-rangey players. This would be especially the case once you hit post-board for all sorts of transformations. If I were you though, I'd find a way to abuse GSZ with LED or else you haven't completely broken the card into the deck. Being able to play 1G for explorer means you are color fixing and you get long term resources if you are slow rolling a control deck (GREAT in RUG heavy metas).. but against a deck playing basics, you lose a lot of power in not playing Entomb because Entomb is also quite flexible at Instant for B.. and Entomb works with LED in a lot of situations. Entomb can also become a sacrifice outlet and protection when you find Therapy to crack an Explorer for a power play on turn 1 or 2. Its worth noting that Entomb is a generic creature as Narcomoeba for a single black while GSZ can find Arbor for a single green.. but Narco takes up another slot so perhaps GSZ probably wins that niche. I still think the protection/sac play is one of the main reasons you play Entomb.. then again.. its also fantastic at finding Tendrils when you are holding PIF or finding PIF when you are holding Tendrils. GSZ has the disadvantage of not being business; its totally a set up piece. Entomb, though, functions as protection/creature/business/acceleration.. depending on how it works within your hand. Entomb also has the advantage of being an instant, meaning that instant speed Narco + Culling + B + AdN can randomly win games when you happen to be holding an AdN. In particular, I like the Entomb --> AdN + Pact --> Ewit line of play at 8 mana. It happens now and again, and no storm line of play feels better than reanimating your storm engine with spare, (and generally) non-business cards like Pact and Entomb.

Granted, GSZ can convert the deck into something nasty if you were to play a transformational sideboard. Tomb of Urami looks rather weak as a man plan when you look at cards like the green titan + GSZ; much better man plan. Same goes for the black titan since you still have shit tons of black mana. This is the reason I'd be sold on GSZ, is because it will give you an incredibly game plan against control decks post-board.

Anyone interested in working on the GSZ list I would recommend trying to break it with LED. Also, I talk extensively about the Entomb list on the previous page if anyone is interested.. and here is a Doomsday list that functions on a similar core structure, trying to abuse VE, Culling, LED, Drit, Therapy, Pact in particular. This list plays well, and its worth noting to any heathens that there were MULTIPLE SPANISH INQUISITIONS.. like historically speaking, and we are using a lot of the same cards anyway, and its still storm combo.. so we have a new direction, and we have a bunch of speedy old lists. Basically, let the naysayers come willingly. The pyre is ready!

If we start developing these more, I'll update the primer with new lists, history, core-structure, results (would be nice) etc. There are a bunch of players on MTGS who have switched from the old-SI lists to these VANT (VASI), or VED (VDSI). Not sure what to do about these acronyms but we can figure it out. Ultimately, I think that these decks ought to be discussed here since SI players are ultimately switching from old lists to these lists. I've gotten a shit ton of private messages on MTGS and The Source about these builds as well so I have a feeling that a lot of players have already picked them up and they have their own builds because they know that fundamentally, the core deck structure of VE, Culling, Therapy, Pact, Drit, LED, IT, is incredibly powerful.

- VE Doomsday -
Pact-package - 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Dogs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wolfbriar Elemental

Acceleration - 13
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

Land - 13
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Cantrip/Protection - 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe

Business - 9
1 Burning Wish
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

61 cards

This thread has more info about VED-SI
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...day#post773922

Wolfbriar Elemental in particular is a lot of fun with Pact, turning it into business and allowing for some explosive turn 2 plays when you aren't really supposed to have business in hand.

Its worth noting that my time with VASI evolved into a Doomsday list.. but I was going to school so I didn't really have enough time to develop it fully. Initially, I was thinking I should develop it privately because the list was so good, but I decided to bring it to the community hoping it would blossum into something sick.. but I guess other people didn't put enough time into it either because it actually is difficult to play. It requires a bit of practice to properly judge how to play VASI, specifically when you have so many moving parts. Then again, it got easier to play after a while because cards like Pact and Entomb are so flexible.. Doomsday lists were even more fun to play because they were more difficult puzzles and it was fun playing Brainstorm and Top with the VESI core.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Do you have any streams? I'd very much like to see this in action.

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I would love to see this as well, and totally will do this once I find out where I"m going to be living in the next few weeks, and if there is a store in my vicinity. I plan on converting to VASI, the Entomb list quite soon and putting up some local results as I prepare for a 50+ event.

Entomb is an ok plan but I didn't like the excessive amount of dead cards in the deck and the interaction with Deathrite Shaman, what sold me on Green Sun's Zenith is that it was acceleration and disruption all in one where entomb was business and disruption all in one, the sacrifice cards are more abundant than the cards to be sacrificed so it made a lot of sense to me to just build on Veteran Explorer after Veteran Explorer for a tremendous manabase and then just kill with Ad Nauseam.

I'd love to be able to find a threat to go along with Green Sun's Zenith and Summoner's Pact but I just haven't found anything convincing.

Just Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact and Xantid Swarm fueling Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent looks viable, all the cheats for Dryad Arbor are really good to build around.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Entomb is an ok plan but I didn't like the excessive amount of dead cards in the deck and the interaction with Deathrite Shaman, what sold me on Green Sun's Zenith is that it was acceleration and disruption all in one where entomb was business and disruption all in one, the sacrifice cards are more abundant than the cards to be sacrificed so it made a lot of sense to me to just build on Veteran Explorer after Veteran Explorer for a tremendous manabase and then just kill with Ad Nauseam.

I'd love to be able to find a threat to go along with Green Sun's Zenith and Summoner's Pact but I just haven't found anything convincing.

Just Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact and Xantid Swarm fueling Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent looks viable, all the cheats for Dryad Arbor are really good to build around.

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Thats my point.. Entomb is not only functionable within your hand, its makes dead hands work. Its the piece that completes most hands and allows you to keep 7 cards almost all the time. For example, if you keep 7 cards with 2 disruption spells and a Pact.. all you need to draw is business. But if you also have a Pact and you draw Entomb, and its like turn 3.. you can Pact for Ewit and Entomb for AdN. Then having 8 mana on turn 3 is that much more relevant as you set up with multiple Therapies. Another example would be when you have Pact and Entomb and Culling. Pacting for Young Wolf allows you much more flexibility in that you get BBBB and a protection spell in the mix, because they rarely counter Pact, and if they do, you can adjust with Entomb for Narco and then Culling anyway. GSZ doesn't allow for this flexibility. Thats what I mean by Entomb being an accelerant. Its more flexible than GSZ because its a sac outlet. The deck never has enough sac outlets because it doesn't matter how many are in the deck; it matters how many you have in your hand, and how many you want. If your opponent nails all your creatures with STPs and Snapcasters, your Entomb becomes more important than a GSZ for Xantid Swarm because it can find business like PIF. I'd say the main strength of GSZ is in the post-board and I'd actually say if you play with it enough at your locals, you'll probably wind up moving it to the sideboard because its too slow in the maindeck, and its not flexible like Entomb is. Brainstorm is also a good replacement for Entomb/GSZ. I was playing Brainstorm before Entomb.. and then Entomb made the deck faster and I didn't have to splash a color.. though I'd love to cut some cards to Brainstorm and Entomb in the same list.. that would be dirty.


Summoner's Pact is awesome with Wolfbriar Elemental because it allows Pact + LED to be psuedo-EtW in green.. on turn 2 or if you get an Explorer early with a tight opening hand. As I said before, I gave up on GSZ overbecause I couldn't turn it into business, and it was 1G for 2 lands so it was only set up instead of acceleration. I want to reiterate that Entomb is simply functionable within the hand.. but as protection, business, and acceleration. Its acceleration as well because it finds a sac-outlet; GSZ finds a creature. Also, I don't like being dependent on DI's as my only sac outlet, because then STP or a discard spell is that much more distruptive. If you keep more 7 card hands and just play them out you'll notice that 7 card hands produce a turn 3/4. I recall playing 20 hands as results posted somewhere playing 7 card hands, keeping everything.. and my avg. turn kill was like 3.5 or something (I was only playing 1 AdN). It has an incredible 7 card hand for a combo deck, and I believe that was because of Entomb. Also Entomb is awesome as a back up plan if you hold onto it and DI for AdN. If they counter the DI or AdN, then you still have Entomb as business. GSZ does not produce these lines of play where against heavy countermagic suites you will want this option.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

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1) You are crazy :)
2) You are a genius
3) I love you :) (in a platonic way, of course)

I tested your list yesterday night and made the following changes:

-1 AdN
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Summoner's Pact
-1 GSZ
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Duress
+1 Past in Flames

I have to say the the deck is a blast, I didn't take record of the actual statistics but it seemed pretty consistent at comboing off turn 3 and very, very resilient to AdN fizzles

You can cut the 2nd Ad Nauseam but you can't cut the Empty the Warrens, that card wins so many games with Cabal Therapy vs Tempo regardless of the disynergy with Summoner's Pact that I think you have to play with it.

Duress is kind of pointless, you have 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Green Sun's Zenith and 1 Xantid Swarm already; the cards I've wanted to cut the most are the second Ad Nauseam, the Chrome Mox and the Deathrite Shaman just because I always seem to be able to cast a Veteran Explorer anyway.

I have Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains in the SB along with 3 more Xantid Swarms, I think it's better to MD Empty the Warrens than Past in Flames because if it gets them to SB in Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm then you get to make the swap to Past in Flames and suddenly they're left holding dead cards where MD Past in Flames doesn't really affect their SBing plans at all.

Sensei's Top is definitely amazing tho', we have so many shuffle effects in the deck to get value from it and 3 seems like the right number.

@Vacrix

Entomb sounds amazing until you play against Deathrite Shaman, then the card just falls apart in my experience. Let them STP all of my Dryad Arbors and Veteran Explorers, they'll pay for it with Xantid Swarm. Maybe you can play Entomb MD and then SB into Green Sun's Zenith vs Deathrite Shaman, but right now I'd just rather play the best MD vs Deathrite Shaman because it's a pretty ubiquitous part of the format - ignoring Deathrite Shaman feels about as disastrous for a combo deck as ignoring Force of Will.

@Raystar

Right now I'm just trying to get the number of Veteran Explorers and Sensei's Divining Tops right, 3 Top seems correct because like Chrome Mox you really don't want to open with more than 1.

Top and GSZ make sense together, especially since GSZ's recur and that makes for quite a few shuffle effects. I see what you mean about Entomb vs. Deathrite but Entomb is fantastic against everything else, and there have been a surge in UWR Tempo builds that beat BUG Tempo builds into the ground. Against the format, GSZ is probably better, but Entomb is going to be a solid choice in some metagames. For example, metagames heavy in RUG/UWR and Stoneblade/Miracles, Entomb looks pretty solid. In BUG/RUG metagames, I'd say GSZ/Top builds look incredible.. although I'd almost want like Spiritmonger or something huge you can look for with GSZ just incase you get into some shit with RUG and they race you early, and then you can't go for AdN. I've run into this situation before in testing with AdN, and EtW is a godsend pre-board. Then again, GSZ really does expand your options. I'd say exploiting it potentially with some kind of fat-dude, or at least LED will break open the GSZ build completely.

If you don't see as many Deathrite Shamans as I do then play Entomb and SB Green Sun's Zenith, but either way you should be playing Green Sun's Zenith in your 75 because it gives your deck so much redundancy. I was surprised I could SB in destroy Artifact/Enchantment creatures and get around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance completely for 1 card, not being able to tutor for business, and to be honest Entomb can't tutor for business without Summoner's Pact, seems to be less and less of a problem.

The deck feels faster than ANT because it durdles less, does anyone else find that to be the case?

Yes the unoptimized list is about turn 3 kill pretty consistently, and there are a whole bunch of excellent turn 2's. It sets up better than either deck thanks to cards like Explorer and Therapy. Therapy is stronger in this list than it is in either ANT or TES because you can flashback it. Also, the deck has an excellent 7 card hand, though I'd say as you get closer to 5 cards it gets weaker due to a lack of cantrips. SDT seems to be a good answer to that question; I enjoyed playing with 4 Brainstorm 4 Top in the DD version. Also, this deck rips RUG a new one since we can pretend to be Nic fit for far longer than storm should be able to, especially with your list with GSZ/Top. In general, all the extra mana and flashbackable protection means the Tempo matchup is particularly solid. I'd say against slower control decks like Stoneblade/Miracles that have stronger countermagic suites, we have the option to slow play. Veteran Explorer is a perpetual ritual against control since we get to hold onto the lands, and it can't countered by Spell Pierce and ESG/Pact is a nice option as a surprise anti-Daze line of play. Also, the fact that we fetch basics makes us even better against Tempo.



I would like to say that Entomb can be business without Pact. Entomb can find PIF, meaning its potentially a business spell at 6 mana. I like having that option in addition to it potentially being protection, accel, etc. I know its weak to Deathrite. Its incredibly fun to goldfish, however, and its nice getting a PIF in the yard EOT as setup for the following turn, or as a fail safe. Also, I liked the idea of finding Darkblast with Entomb as an anti-bear option that is rather compact in the post-board. Same goes for a Taiga + Ancient Grudge. GSZ does the same thing, but GSZ isn't too good if they land an early Gaddock Teeg. Entomb is also slightly better under Thalia since its a mana cheaper.

Post-board I found myself going for Pernicious Deed into PIF/Tendrils against the slower decks simply because they board in a shit ton of hate, and sometimes the compact hate strategies just don't cut it. I think that GSZ lists might be even better at this strategy.

I'm probably missing something but how is Entomb into Past in Flames business? Once you cast Past in Flames the Entomb in your graveyard can tutor for Tendrils of Agony but the Tendrils of Agony wont have flashback? Every time the Entomb is business argument comes up, Summoner's Pact and Eternal Witness seem to be a part of that equation.

Sometimes you Therapy, see shit you'd rather not, and Diabolic Intent while still holding cards, so you can set up AdN on the following turn. If they counter DI/AdN then you have the option to go for PIF with Entomb. Other times, you are holding the Tendrils/PIF and you search for the other one because the deck simply has that much mana. Sometimes its business because you've filled up your yard with your business into their countersuite already. Its saved me a couple times when I've been sitting on like 6 or 7 lands thanks to multiple Explorer triggers.

Mmm, I'm going to avoid it for as long as possible and test other things just because I think other things need to be tested, I was experimenting with the tutors in the deck compared to the cantrips and found myself liking Grim Tutor and disliking Sensei's Divining Top as far as the flex slots go. I also missed the second Ad Nauseam and think I either want it back or 2 Grim Tutor because there are a lot of starts where you open with a Cabal Therapy on turn one and then follw up with an Empty the Warrens + Flashback.

Deathwish is a poor man's substitute and I'm not sure how good Diminishing Returns is in this deck to be honest. Diabolic Intent is like the MVP of this deck as either a win condition or a set up card, sacrifing a Veteran Explorer and searching for Lion's Eye Diamond is a pretty insane play because you can instantly Infernal Tutor afterwards.

I looked at Death Wish already.. it wasn't too effective. Also, I tried adding in Death's Shadow. I swear one day I will get it to work.. probably with Berserk or something or perhaps in a Doomsday pile.

Anyway.. I found some potential creatures to experiment with with GSZ:

Child of Alara
This card looks good if you are going to run the playset of GSZ. The multitude of sac effects mean that you can use it to blow up with board, and it also beats for 6 trample. I think this card could potentially be a mainboard card; its good to have a random out and turn a spare GSZ into a business spell if you hit late game and either want to reset the board or just get in for there for the win.

Wolfir Silverheart
If you were to play a 'man plan' transformation, I'd play a couple of these guys since they turn spare Explorers/ESGs into beasts. And you can find them with Summoner's Pacts if you are in a situation with a lot of lands in play.

Terastodon
This card is something I'd consider for a post-board transformation like I mentioned above. It can potentially get 18 power on your side if you blow up your own stuff, and it also has the option of getting rid of troublesome permanents.

Still messing around with this, one of the things I've found so far is that I SB out Summoner's Pact so often that I think I'm going to cut it entirely, the 5 extra Spirit Guides are ok but the tutor for Dryad Arbor and costing a land drop is really weak and commital compared to Green Sun's Zenith. Most of this decks appeal is the ability to outlast and out resource your opponent's, so I think just concentrating on building up the manabase and digging with Sensei's Divining Top makes a lot more sense and if you miss the bodies for your sacrifice outlets then you just add Xantid Swarms but so far I've gotten away with adding Bayou.

Also Natural Order is the best man plan ever, swap Ad Nauseam for Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens for Progenitus and watch them cry.

I hadn't found Summoner's Pact to be a problem usually because you can often pay the upkeep of 2GG with extra lands you get from Explorer. But in the GSZ build I see your point. Natural Order looks like it will be incredible, post-board. Child of Alara as well.. board sweepers are going to be huge as well in a lot of situations. What's your build look like lately? Balancing it and the sideboard doesn't look easy. I'll do some testing later today and see what happens.

Summoner's Pact isn't a problem, it's just underwhelming and I'd prefer not to pass a turn after tutoring for a Veteran Explorer because a lot can happen in a turn. Summoner's Pact is a card that you're going to use when you want speed, that doesn't really seem to be what we're going for here when we can build a manabase and flashback a Cabal Therapy. We have like 14 creature equivalents in this deck and only 8 cards that need them in order to function, which makes Summoner's Pact a bit redundant considering I have 3 more Xantid Swarms in the board.

Right now, I've got

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Verdant Catacombos
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

That's 59 cards, I keep fiddling with the ratio of Ad Nauseams and Sensei's Divining Tops and Grim Tutors (right now I have 1 Grim Tutor as the 60th card) because it's a careful balance between consistency and speed. I think I like 1 Ad Nauseam and 2 Grim Tutor tho', i've had some near misses flipping that 2nd Ad Nauseam.

I had to use Summoner's Pact for Elvish Spirit Guide so often that my intuition was that the deck really needs a way to ensure its second land drop more than it needs a way to find green creatures.

It may only be a matter of time until Brainstorm and Ponder find their way into the list, but I'd like to avoid that if possible, Top keeps the manabase durable if the deck a bit slow.

My guess is you'll probably end up playing Chrome Mox based on your current list. Otherwise, you'll find it difficult to hit enough mana sources after you play Ad Nauseam. This is why I liked having Pact. It helped in the post-AdN hands.

13 business seems like too much to me. I'd say you were spot on with Tops. In fact, I'd think that playing +1 Underground Sea, +4 Brainstorm would be a better way to find your business instead of trying to play extra business spells to reach consistency, much like ANT's approach. GSZ as extra shuffle effects seems good. Perhaps a split between Brainstorms and SDTs. I like Top, but without DD sometimes too many Tops without Brainstorm is a bad thing. I'd think more Brainstorms than Tops. My original list played Brainstorm. I'd give it a try. You should also try to cut Bayou's as well for Misty Rainforests. Grim Tutor costs too much, even with all the extra mana in this deck. Being able IT/DI early for spare resources on turn 2 is awesome. Grim Tutor on turn 3, not so much.

I like that your list has 4 GSZ/4 Therapy/1 Swarm as protection. Pretty dope, compressed protection package.

I've been debating a lot of the numbers and card choices in the deck, as soon as we cut Summoner's Pact we become a worse Ad Nauseam deck but I think we should look at Ad Nauseam the same way ANT looks at Ad Nauseam as a secondary engine vs discard decks for Infernal Tutor and the primary engine for Diabolic Intent where Empty the Warrens is too slow on turn 2 because you need a creature and the Past in Flames is impossible when you can't recur Summoner's Pact anymore.

That got me thinking that this is probably an Ill Gotten Gains deck, where the presence of Xantid Swarm and flashback Cabal Therapy lets us circumvent the drawback on turn 2. T1 Cabal Therapy, T2 Veteran Explorer and we get to tutor for and cast Ill Gotten Gains, flashback Cabal Therapy and then finish the chain with the lands we put into play. If they play Deathrite Shaman no problem, we still have a turn before she loses summoning sickness or we can shit Goblins with Empty the Warrens or get sick with Ad Nauseam.

So we cut 2 Grim Tutor for 1 Ill Gotten Gains and then we carefully consider the number of Sensei's Divining Tops and Chrome Mox in the deck ... I'm guessing 3 Top and 2 Mox.

Generally I just feel like the original manabase was a little to land light for Green Sun's Zenith, those 2 Bayou made a world of difference. I think with an open SB we can incorperate all of these ideas together, for instance Pact and ESG in the MD, 4 Tops and 3 Xantid Swarms in the SB and then whatever graveyard engine we think best replaces the 2nd Ad Nauseam.

I'm still brewing and figuring out the card choices and numbers, so far all I'm certain of is that if you want to play Green Sun's Zenith then the land count has to go up.

Think I'm going to mess around with 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 1 Chrome Mox and 4 Sensei's Divining Top on MTGs under the assumption we never want to draw Chrome Mox and drawing a second Sensei's Divining Top isn't that bad with 12 shuffle effects. The deck just needs that "glue" card that gives it consistency and I don't want to play Brainstorms and expose myself to Wastelands. I'm going for attrition not speed so Brainstorm isn't really the right card I'm looking for. I may try some crazy shit like Plunge into Darkness or Tainted Pact or Night's Whispers but I'm pretty sure Top is just better.

I've been playing the following PSI list for a little while now with moderate success. I know the deck has recently been moving in a different direction, but I still like playing this.

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Wild Cantor
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 3 Tomb of Urami
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm

It's a pretty stock list, but I wasn't sure about the sideboard that I made. Here are a few questions:
Should I have Cabal Therapy instead of Duress?
Is Xantid Swarm better than Autumn's Veil?
Is mixing the grindplan with the manplan silly?

Thanks!

Maybe you wanna flip the 4 becher / 1 ToA into 4 ToA / 1 Belcher. You have 2 forest cards in the deck a just 4 card that take them out.

and for the man plan...i like the idea but just 3 tombs seems a bit poor. Maybe 6-8 mans would be right!

GC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Maybe you wanna flip the 4 becher / 1 ToA into 4 ToA / 1 Belcher. You have 2 forest cards in the deck a just 4 card that take them out.

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I feel that most of the time postboard vs. blue comes from forcing through a belcher and just activating it over and over again until they die. Occasionally I can bait out their forces and just combo off normally, but generally I am truly grinding; using my D4s as random CA instead of chaining them, trying to outdamage my opponent, not combo off. Yes, I lose a little explosiveness with 4 belchers, but I think I make up for that by having a crazy strong game against blue. I'll test your changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

and for the man plan...i like the idea but just 3 tombs seems a bit poor. Maybe 6-8 mans would be right!

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The way I use it, Tomb is just part of the grind plan (tries to outdamage my opponent). I'd love to hear why more "men" are necessary!

I guess another question is this: what exactly does the manplan seek to do?

Thanks a lot for the response!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rhinoflipper

I feel that most of the time postboard vs. blue comes from forcing through a belcher and just activating it over and over again until they die. Occasionally I can bait out their forces and just combo off normally, but generally I am truly grinding; using my D4s as random CA instead of chaining them, trying to outdamage my opponent, not combo off. Yes, I lose a little explosiveness with 4 belchers, but I think I make up for that by having a crazy strong game against blue. I'll test your changes, but I'm not positive that they


The way I use it, Tomb is just part of the grind plan (tries to outdamage my opponent). I'd love to hear why more "men" are necessary!

I guess another question is this: what exactly does the manplan seek to do?

Thanks a lot for the response!

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I'm not expert on the deck, but man plan tries to souprise the oponent with a fast very harmful creature. Most of deck which run StP or spot creature removal will side them out in order to side in other more useful cards. In a general way the man plan makes cards like spell pierce or flusterstorm less valuable for you oponent. Not to mention that if you got BBBB in you pool tomb is an uncountereable 5/5 flying demon!
Anyway winning with storm or with a guy is almost the same difficult because probably your opo will cast counter magic targeting rituals and other spells...however the idea is good.
Now....wich men are the best? i dont know...I like Phyrexian Negator because you can simply go for petal, DR and negator for the win. I like tomb too!!!

Other are Phyrexian Obliterator and Tombstalker.

GC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

I'm not expert on the deck, but man plan tries to souprise the oponent with a fast very harmful creature. Most of deck which run StP or spot creature removal will side them out in order to side in other more useful cards. In a general way the man plan makes cards like spell pierce or flusterstorm less valuable for you oponent. Not to mention that if you got BBBB in you pool tomb is an uncountereable 5/5 flying demon!
Anyway winning with storm or with a guy is almost the same difficult because probably your opo will cast counter magic targeting rituals and other spells...however the idea is good.
Now....wich men are the best? i dont know...I like Phyrexian Negator because you can simply go for petal, DR and negator for the win. I like tomb too!!!

Other are Phyrexian Obliterator and Tombstalker.

GC.

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That makes sense. I think I understand how to do the manplan, but how would you suggest I do a full grindplan? I imagine it might use Lotus Bloom or Autumn's Veil, but I don't really know.

Thanks again!

Mm....i think that question could be better answered by vacrix or finalfortune

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4 carpet of flowers
4 Lotus bloom though some numbers of tomb are fine too depending on the matchups you're expecting.
4/3 split of duress/thoughtseize/autums veil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holly

4 carpet of flowers
4 Lotus bloom though some numbers of tomb are fine too depending on the matchups you're expecting.
4/3 split of duress/thoughtseize/autums veil

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Ok, this sounds good. Am I correct in saying that postboard, my plan is to resolve belcher and eat away at my opponents' life? Since I board out a lot of explosive cards, am I really trying to win with tendrils? If I am correct, then wouldn't swarms be better than veil?

Thanks!

Maybe you could show us how you side in order to help / lear in the best form.

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You can play Swarms if you want, as I said it depends on the matchup you're going to face. If you're playing against tempo decks with lightning bolt the swarm is no good, they will keep them in, in anticipation of the swarm and to fasten their clock.
If all you're facing are slow blue decks like Miracles, Blade-Control or something like High Tide swarm is good.

Boarding.. well start by cutting the Pact-stuff since you don't want to pact versus blue.
4 Summoners Pact
4 Culling the Weak
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Wild Cantor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains (sucks without an active Swarm/Veil)
4 more to go which now varies a lot imho.
You could shave 1-2 ESG, 1 d4, the Tendrils, the Empty, the Arbor, 1 tutor.
it does depend what deck your opponent plays and what hes seen so far.
Did you kill him with ETW/does he expect it? If yes he will board something -> you can cut it.
Is his deck slow enough for a natural Tendrils, using his storm count? Leave it in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Maybe you could show us how you side in order to help / lear in the best form.

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

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Typically I do:
-4 culling
-4 pact
-4 esg
-1 cutter
-1 cantor
-1 arbor

+everything

Against Thresh, I leave my tombs out and leave in usually esg.