[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Hello Turbo Eldrazi players, I am a new 12-post player and am really enjoying this deck. However, there are some problems I am having with this deck that I am hoping to address soon, so if this forum could kindly lend a hand, that would be very much appreciated. This is my current decklist BTW.

1: How do 12-post player play around Chalice of the Void at 1? Repeal doesn't work against it and most of the cards in the deck are CMC1. Do they just live with it or do people put cards in the deck to do something about it?

2: When is the correct time to play Crop Rotation? I've run into so many counterspell traps and it's caused me to get set back and sometimes lose so many times.

3: Does this deck just auto-concede to MUD decks or is there something 12-post players can do about it?

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1. Show and Tell is your best play against Chalice @ 1 decks, which lose to anything put in. ALso, playing your map/top before chalice is huge. All together though, Chalice beats you. There aren't supposed to be good cards for it. My teammate who only builds decks that beat me, includes chalice in nearly every deck. He even ran goblins with chalice for 1 main against me.

2. The entire finesse of the deck is not playing Crop rotation into counters. The "best" time is in response to a wasteland, but often the card can be used aggressively to facilitate quick conversions of stable mana into eldrazi. Sometimes you want to draw out their counters with other threats that aren't threatening (I frequently cast show and tell against rug with no threats in hand simply to burn counters, and I ALWAYS ask if my tops resolve while trying to look pathetic while I have another one in hand).

3. Mud is a terrible matchup, and outside of Show and tell, your main plan is side in force of will, which are being shaved for more important counters. Of all the bad matchups, MUD is by far the worst. Thankfully, it is a terrible meta call at the moment.

Despite all this, if you wish to warp your other matchups and have a chance against MUD, include 3-4 seal of primordium in your sideboard and you're set.

Ran this tonight at my weekly legacy tourney. I fell to heavy hymn to tourach, and the mirror against Rock Lee. Beat UWR delver, and Drew Levin's new PW Control Nic Fit [which is sick]. Mediocre night but this has been testing very well and has X-0'd a different weekly legacy a few times now. I don't feel like there are any giant holes [except MUD, as said before, lol]

I've been pushing the more 'conservative approach'. Meaning no 3 color, and narrow(ish) 1-ofs. I think with swan song around, finally giving us reliable game against ancient tomb combo decks (which it really does help), it allows us to un-warp the deck. I said a handful of posts ago that I was hitting up 2012 lists, and I really feel like they're well positioned these days. Straight pile of UG consistency. This has been very well rounded for me.

List:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Pithing Needle

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Swansong
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Show and Tell
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Land Base: Besides being a sigh of relief from all of the underground seas and single basics I had messed with, I feel like it is very well balanced. 2 island to fully support swansong and flusterstorm. 3 basics total. 26 land which is made possible by a full 4 maps, and added repeal draw. 3 Vesuva has felt pretty good - I'm happy with how often I have islands early instead of often awkwardly copying their fetch. I still think 2 is too low, given that its one of the most powerful effects in the deck and a lot of the graveyard plan in our deck hinges around copying bog reliably.

No Kozilek: I realized that for 10 mana, an expedition map = eldrazi [map>activate>eye>activate], and more often than a draw four (while sometimes clutch), I want this path. Turned a card I hate seeing in my hand into a card that will make me keep a 1 spell hand. Switch has been great. Plus Map is very well positioned now.

Needle: I think needle is in a prime position right now, across all legacy. I've actually been using it to time walk them more than naming wasteland - though that luxury is getting a very warm welcome home. The card hits soo much.

Sideboard: Still very focused on combo, show and tell variants specifically. 8 early counters always buys enough time to set up a glen elendra, or trap under top. 13 counters is a LOT. Fits very well. The tabernacle has been great too. Its the first sideboard I have actually been comfortable with across the board.

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Overall, the meat and potatoes approach has been strong, and I don't see any gaping hole that has become an emergency.

I saw Rock Lee back on trinket mage tn, and I agree that that is also a good meta call right now. It might be sufficient to have him chump block instead of O-stone. Plus the card advantage was missed as I got hymned repeatedly today. I may take that list -3 O-Stone, +1 Mage +1 Candelabra +1 Repeal, or -2 Needle, +1 Mage +1 Candelabra and see how that fares. If we end up back in all colors of tempo season, I will pick the DRS back up - it was great for me in that environment, but for now, needle and repeal are the better speed bumps.


Do you guys feel the same about this take against the meta? How has everyone's swan song experience been?

Hi Tim,

i'm still substantially playing the same list i posted in the previous page, just as you did i have lowered vesuva count to 3 while adding a singleton breeding pool instead of your basic island, because there's nothing i hated more than having a titan in hand, a lot of colorless mana in play and just 2 basic island looking at me helplessy. I'm not sold on it, but i have to say that i tutor it every time i feel i don't immediately need its mana, so i can put it tapped into play saving 2 lifes.
I've added Tabernacle to the sb too (Young Pyromancer decks doesn't seem to appreciate it) together with a couple of Swan Songs, while shaving Glen Elendra and Fow, so my new sb looks like this:

4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Swan Song
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Tabernacle
1 Thragtusk

I really cannot totally cut Fows, i think many combo decks are too fast not to have a quick 0 mana answer, that's why i prefer keeping them and limiting Swan Song to 2/3 copies. Song has been great at the moment (not so spectacular against omnitell since it doesn't counter Defense Grid), but i'm worried about our lack of colored mana to relyably cast, lets say on turn 2, both swan song and flusterstorm.
Also, while i like Glen Elendra once in play, i often found it a bit narrow. It's really slow, and i can't remember a time where i cast it while still having 2 more blue untapped lands ready to activate it twice. It's still the best thing to show against omnitell, i know...

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Originally Posted by Davek

Hi Tim,

i'm still substantially playing the same list i posted in the previous page, just as you did i have lowered vesuva count to 3 while adding a singleton breeding pool instead of your basic island, because there's nothing i hated more than having a titan in hand, a lot of colorless mana in play and just 2 basic island looking at me helplessy. I'm not sold on it, but i have to say that i tutor it every time i feel i don't immediately need its mana, so i can put it tapped into play saving 2 lifes.
I've added Tabernacle to the sb too (Young Pyromancer decks doesn't seem to appreciate it) together with a couple of Swan Songs, while shaving Glen Elendra and Fow, so my new sb looks like this:

4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Swan Song
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Tabernacle
1 Thragtusk

I really cannot totally cut Fows, i think many combo decks are too fast not to have a quick 0 mana answer, that's why i prefer keeping them and limiting Swan Song to 2/3 copies. Song has been great at the moment (not so spectacular against omnitell since it doesn't counter Defense Grid), but i'm worried about our lack of colored mana to relyably cast, lets say on turn 2, both swan song and flusterstorm.
Also, while i like Glen Elendra once in play, i often found it a bit narrow. It's really slow, and i can't remember a time where i cast it while still having 2 more blue untapped lands ready to activate it twice. It's still the best thing to show against omnitell, i know...

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You make a very good point with FOW. Especially with the double blue- I've been lucky to avoid that bottle neck. I'm going to but a few in and mix it around. The flusterstorms are the only thing completely safe.

I actually have glen elendra in there because I feel that she is versitile. As a counter yeah she's narrow but she blocks like a thragtusk. Relying on her as the first line of defense doesn't work, but each time I resolve her the game feels won.

I feel you pain and can see how breeding pool would help. I'm very protective of the basic forest I run and when I felt I needed help with Titan I went for cavern - which will be right back in if blue picks back up..

Here's the list I've been testing for a few weeks now:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

Very "oldschool" in this list. there WERE times I missed fow, so unsure about ditching it. The likely sub would be mindbreak trap though, rather than swan song or glen elendra. Still unsure. Also testing the 1 needle versus another land versus a 3rd candelabra. This build is significantly more combo-ey than previous builds, but in testing it is savagely consistent.

I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Here's the list I've been testing for a few weeks now:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

Very "oldschool" in this list. there WERE times I missed fow, so unsure about ditching it. The likely sub would be mindbreak trap though, rather than swan song or glen elendra. Still unsure. Also testing the 1 needle versus another land versus a 3rd candelabra. This build is significantly more combo-ey than previous builds, but in testing it is savagely consistent.

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I like this list a lot. I know candles and kozileks play well together, but have you used that fast kozilek often?

Were mages and repeal always enough defense? I seem to always devote more slots for ostone and the like over your lists..

Force over trap seems logical because so many times trap is hard cast anyway. And it floats. We'll have to have Jeff break down probabilities on tues haha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davek

I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?

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I've been struggling with this problem too. A lot of the time I shrug it off saying all decks lose to double hymn- but that's a lame excuse. I'm also looking into solutions and I bet compost would work if the meta is saturated with black, plus there's an awful lot of deathritre and others out there too.

The best regular way to fight it in my experience is to make sure you stick a top early, and defensively hold brainstorm because most hymn decks don't pressure hard. But overall hymn is a card we are weak to.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

I like this list a lot. I know candles and kozileks play well together, but have you used that fast kozilek often?

Were mages and repeal always enough defense? I seem to always devote more slots for ostone and the like over your lists..

Force over trap seems logical because so many times trap is hard cast anyway. And it floats. We'll have to have Jeff break down probabilities on tues haha.

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Just at that small event last week I hardcast Kozilek 4 times for the win. Once in two turns, with him getting countered in response to the trigger, shuffling, then drawing himself. After he got STP'd the 2nd time, my opponent said "How am I supposed to deal with you? I finally stopped Kozilek and you still have 7 cards in hand?" The beauty of Kozilek. There was a time when I ran TWO Kozilek in the deck, but this was pre-liliana printing and stifle-naught was a thing, so I relied on his 12/12 body after being stifled. I still might test a 3rd candelabra, since Kozilek pounding is very often GG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davek

I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?

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No on compost. If it drew a card when being abrupt decay'd I would say "still no, but good idea," but yeah, too risky and too iffy. You would need to run the bonfire version for this, and even then you'd only be drawing 1-2 cards from it the entire game.

The better plan, is to know what is the threat/goal of your deck, how hymn can mess with it, and move forward from there. Since the deck's plan is mana fixing, play to those strengths. A turn 1 map vs their turn 2 hymn is a very good play, moreso because they have to decide to NOT abrupt decay it. Additionally, running higher land count can fix your hymn woes. Really though, the cards hymn is there as a -1 parity card for you, but since the vast majority of your deck stays on parity, you should be fine if you play defensively and attentive to your mana.

For me it's usually less of the mana screw issue, but more of a take-my-last-two-business-spells issue. Playing off the top with a few lands on board doesn't usually go well. So the top on board is huge because any Titan in hand isn't going to be there long. I'll mull basically any hand that doesn't feature at least 1 library manipulation, and with that 1 I'm looking for a second ASAP to then begin. Their plan is slow, and that one Goyf can be repealed along the way if you're engine is working..

I've been testing with Post again with a buddy and interestingly, we've also gone back to the 2012 UG lists. I'm even thinking of using Devastation Tide again to support the Repeals.

Hymn hurts a lot, but the real back breaker is the Liliana that comes after it. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Just at that small event last week I hardcast Kozilek 4 times for the win. Once in two turns, with him getting countered in response to the trigger, shuffling, then drawing himself. After he got STP'd the 2nd time, my opponent said "How am I supposed to deal with you? I finally stopped Kozilek and you still have 7 cards in hand?" The beauty of Kozilek. There was a time when I ran TWO Kozilek in the deck, but this was pre-liliana printing and stifle-naught was a thing, so I relied on his 12/12 body after being stifled. I still might test a 3rd candelabra, since Kozilek pounding is very often GG.

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That's sick haha. But I've been on the fence about wether or not high candle count and kozilek improves the consistency of the approach, or "win more". Yeah they're more comboey but know what I mean?

3 candles and more eldrazi calls that 4th vesuva from the bench

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

That's sick haha. But I've been on the fence about wether or not high candle count and kozilek improves the consistency of the approach, or "win more". Yeah they're more comboey but know what I mean?

3 candles and more eldrazi calls that 4th vesuva from the bench

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I feel like the 3rd candelabra is less risky than a 4th vesuva. Simply because opening hands are easier with 3 vesuva. Unless you are replacing the 3rd candelabra with an additional land, that being the vesuva itself, which is a viable option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I feel like the 3rd candelabra is less risky than a 4th vesuva. Simply because opening hands are easier with 3 vesuva. Unless you are replacing the 3rd candelabra with an additional land, that being the vesuva itself, which is a viable option.

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How well positioned is your list currently? I will be going to SCG Milwaukee next week and am really thinking about playing 12 post.

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
4 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics

In an unknown meta, would it be better to sideboard Force of Will or Swan Song? I really don't want to get trampled by Blood Moon but I hate Chalice of the Void also.

In addition, is the version of this deck Rock Lee posted a while ago with Deathrites and Thragtusks seen as better or is the original classic list on the first post still considered the best?

This is my current list BTW and is also the list that I am talking about that is 10 pages away, take out Elephant Grass for Venser

As an answer to my current list. This is what I'm testing at the moment.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hopo

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
4 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics

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Sweet list! How has your experience been without brainstorm? I couldn't imagine my game plan working without manipulation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 203995014

In an unknown meta, would it be better to sideboard Force of Will or Swan Song? I really don't want to get trampled by Blood Moon but I hate Chalice of the Void also.

In addition, is the version of this deck Rock Lee posted a while ago with Deathrites and Thragtusks seen as better or is the original classic list on the first post still considered the best?

This is my current list BTW and is also the list that I am talking about that is 10 pages away, take out Elephant Grass for Venser

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Right now I think we want a few of both, especially in an open meta. They're very similar, but the hard counter effect is so powerful right now with all of our problem matchups hinging on one key spell. The ratio between the four types of counters is something I'm always adjusting, but some FOW do seem to be needed.

While they're wildly different lists at first glance, they are for slightly different metas. DRS and tusk mostly shore up heavy tempo metas. With such a huge potential card pool a slight tweak can change a lot of cards. But overall the core of the UG deck is huge and very inertial - everything else is just a spin on top of that..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hopo

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
4 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics

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I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

Sweet list! How has your experience been without brainstorm? I couldn't imagine my game plan working without manipulation

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Thanks!
I have had the merfolk-syndrome with Brainstorm: I'd rather have more business than dilute the deck with a card that's suppose to find the said business. I never did well in tournaments or when testing with Brainstorm. To me Pithing Needle is way more important and in my deck they are pretty much fighting for the same space. It feels a bit same as Deathrite Shaman: everybody claimed how good it is but in practice it never did anything good for me. Could be a metagame thing, though, because everything usually is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

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What do you mean by "just MBT"? The relevant cards would be
4 MBT
4 Flusterstorm
2 BEB
1 Venser
1 Tabernacle
4 Crop rotation -> Bojuka Bog/Chasm/Tabernacle
and for those once in a lifetime moments: 4 Repeal (bounce a mox in response to hellbent tutor).

Top helps you float counters on top of your library but you are soft to Silence.

Nonetheless, fast non-graveyard-combo is probably the worst matchup. You should pretty much always lose game 1 unless some of the following happens:
1) a surprise Bojuka Bog to mess with mana maths, IGG or Past in Flames
2) you get to Show and Tell a Titan into massive lifegain
3) you get to Rotate a Glacial Chasm to stop goblin tokens/Belcher
4) you get to Oblivion Stone them back to stone age for some reason

Of course it helps if people are unfamiliar with the deck and especially sideboarding.
I don't know what kind of hand my last round opponent kept in game 1 as I had time to hardcast two Titans. He should have clearly mulliganed.

If I decide that the storm matchups needs more attention, I would try some additional hate permanents in sideboard as Silence is bad news.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hopo

What do you mean by "just MBT"? The relevant cards would be
4 MBT
4 Flusterstorm
2 BEB
1 Venser
1 Tabernacle
4 Crop rotation -> Bojuka Bog/Chasm/Tabernacle
and for those once in a lifetime moments: 4 Repeal (bounce a mox in response to hellbent tutor).

Top helps you float counters on top of your library but you are soft to Silence.

Nonetheless, fast non-graveyard-combo is probably the worst matchup. You should pretty much always lose game 1 unless some of the following happens:
1) a surprise Bojuka Bog to mess with mana maths, IGG or Past in Flames
2) you get to Show and Tell a Titan into massive lifegain
3) you get to Rotate a Glacial Chasm to stop goblin tokens/Belcher
4) you get to Oblivion Stone them back to stone age for some reason

Of course it helps if people are unfamiliar with the deck and especially sideboarding.
I don't know what kind of hand my last round opponent kept in game 1 as I had time to hardcast two Titans. He should have clearly mulliganed.

If I decide that the storm matchups needs more attention, I would try some additional hate permanents in sideboard as Silence is bad news.

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It's because all those reactive spells fall victim to Silence and Xantid Swarm. Crop Rotation does nothing against Tendrils but only against EtW or Grapshot. OmniTell can ignore your Titan and it's tutored lands.

I think the fact, that your TES opponents plain beat themselves (as it seems), overshadows the urge to adjust the 75 more towards the combo-matchup. MBT is a horrible choice to adress combo: it is easily avoidable for storm and totally dead against S&T and even stuff like Doomsday Maniac

Like has been said, fast combo is the worst but not impossible. You still can and will win every now and then. Rock Lee has some sb configurations that are addressing the omni-tell meta. In my area the deck just doesn't exist. I'm happy with the level of protection I have now but I admit it would feel even better with Brainstorms.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Like has been said, fast combo is the worst but not impossible. You still can and will win every now and then. Rock Lee has some sb configurations that are addressing the omni-tell meta. In my area the deck just doesn't exist. I'm happy with the level of protection I have now but I admit it would feel even better with Brainstorms.

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I had grips/trinisphere in my sb when my meta had like 3 omni tell decks lol

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's because all those reactive spells fall victim to Silence and Xantid Swarm. Crop Rotation does nothing against Tendrils but only against EtW or Grapshot. OmniTell can ignore your Titan and it's tutored lands.

I think the fact, that your TES opponents plain beat themselves (as it seems), overshadows the urge to adjust the 75 more towards the combo-matchup. MBT is a horrible choice to adress combo: it is easily avoidable for storm and totally dead against S&T and even stuff like Doomsday Maniac

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I do agree that the list is light on TES defense. And if he's facing 2 of them in a 5 round I'd definitely up the hate. But the deck isn't a total dog to it. I actually pilot TES often and the density of relevant cards post has is way above most other legacy decks, even maindeck. Crop/repeal arent king but they're more of a threat than stone forge mystics and slots other decks have. Plus, the game two and three basically eliminates the warrens path with chasm and tabernacle.

I went into a small event expecting MUD and TES with this board:

4 Fluster
4 Force of Will
1 Show and Tell
1 Tabernacle
3 Swan Song
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Cursed Totem(relevant across the meta)

Now, as the TES pilot (and I've been there), fighting through a pile of counters (Hopos even had 10 or so) is definitely not a cake walk, on top of the many relevant maindeck cards. Plus, post can suddenly be at turn three 30 life then turn 4 manymany life (which should be on the post players mind). So now fitting in this window wanting a xantid attack step - without it getting repealed & no reliable warrens path or past in flames is really an uphill battle.

But the real take away here is that in addition to up to 12 counters- our lands, creatures, tutors, AND removal is relevant in the match and really adds up. The post pilot must play to the approach of TES. When I pilot TES I find playing the rug waste/daze game is at least a 1D defense and easier to win over a tuned post board. And yes, any deck is going to lose to G3 TES silence and kill you before you get a land drop - but it won't be a warrens kill lol

How do you improve the matchup?

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyst (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyst (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

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Lemnear, i feel you're right... and wrong, at the same time.
You're totally right when you say Post latest sideboards are poor against a decent TES pilot, that they're soft to a xantid swarm and that you can easily win from there. It's true, even if Post-player can repeal it for 1 turn, you'll probably end replaying it again. But we are speaking of TES, which is a rather rare animal (just as Post is) and has different tools from the most popular storm deck, ANT (which is a lot easier to play) and its recent versions. A couple of days ago, while playing against a classical ANT, i kept this no-land hand:
2 Mindbreak Trap, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 Fow, 1 Top, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Flusterstorm

I snap-kept it. "I don't mind if ther's no clock nor a single land, a classical ANT will have a hard time fighting through this" i thought. To make a long story short, it ended as i expected, and the ANT player lost the game. As a post-player, having a clock against combo is not important at all, it's important not to lose the game. But as i said you have a point with TES.


Speaking about combo sideboarding, i'm not so happy with Glen Elendra Archmage, i'm thinking about cutting her and a MBtrap while adding a pair of Arcane Laboratories (that come in handy against Omnitell too). What do you guys think about them? Are they too slow?

Sure, you are likely not going to ramp into Titan without Show and Tell but sometimes all it takes is an arrogant or ignorant storm player keeping a mediocre or graveyard-dependent hand to get punished by an instant Bog.

I would say that Trinisphere in this deck is more effective against Omnitell than storm as you have no way to play it before turn three. I would go for Chalice or Sphere of Resistance. I see no big reasons to play Thorn over Sphere as the latter also deals with another problem deck, Elves and you hardly play creatures yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyt (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

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I know you're also often on the TES thread and I can appreciate the bias. I'm saying that yes any game 1 win is a true steal for post but games 2 and 3 bring it much closer to even, with TES possibly still ahead. It's not anywhere near as troublesome as MUD. Overall I've had a pretty good experience against storm.

As far as arcane and the like said below, they're all nice but still a little slow IMO, I haven't been sold on any permanent based hate although I want some.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

I know you're also often on the TES thread and I can appreciate the bias. I'm saying that yes any game 1 win is a true steal for post but games 2 and 3 bring it much closer to even, with TES possibly still ahead. It's not anywhere near as troublesome as MUD. Overall I've had a pretty good experience against storm.

As far as arcane and the like said below, they're all nice but still a little slow IMO, I haven't been sold on any permanent based hate although I want some.

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It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

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Lemnear, thanks for your input man. I've been running Chalice in my sideboard over the overload of Color-based instant speed countermagic, and it's been a godsend. I think certain countermagic still makes sense (Mindbreak and Fluster imho), but that's where it ends for me. I've been planning on implement sphere as another possibility and every day I get close and closer to throwing it in there.

Can Mystic Remora be considered as sideboard tech vs. Hymn to Tourach and whatnot? The Cumulative Upkeep cost is paid fairly easily similar to Elephant Grass and it does draw quite a bit of cards for you.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Can Mystic Remora be considered as sideboard tech vs. Hymn to Tourach and whatnot? The Cumulative Upkeep cost is paid fairly easily similar to Elephant Grass and it does draw quite a bit of cards for you.

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Mystic Remora + Repeal is an age-old Vintage interaction, but without a very fast and relyable way to race the com. upkeep (Beta Moxen!) it's hard to not restrict you more than your opponent in a format evolving around creatures which Remora ignores.



@J-Funk
It took me months to convince peeps in the Elves thread that Mindbreak Trap is a one-trick-pony against storm, because it can easily be outplayed with Silence, Swarm, Duress, Therapy and even with Infernal -> Ad Nauseam if you have enough permamen-based manasources in play.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

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I lost to burn at an Open... But he was running MB Pyrostatic Pillar (Seriously wtf?) and then I mulled to 5 with hot garbage in G2 and died on T3. Sometimes you just dont get there with TES

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I lost to burn at an Open... But he was running MB Pyrostatic Pillar (Seriously wtf?) and then I mulled to 5 with hot garbage in G2 and died on T3. Sometimes you just dont get there with TES

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I probably would have called a judge to check his deck list over main deck pillars

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

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Understood, and it's appreciated - all of your points led me to cut MbT. And while the chalice/and everyone's sphere idea that's appetizing might be where to go, the board I listed is good against an open combo field and relevant against devastating dreams, moon and other chalice decks - TES isn't quite popular enough to pull many slots away from the snt combos and such..

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davek

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

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Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and LED (Infernal Tutor!!) are essential for Ad Nauseam. Against the route of Past in Flames you have a lot more time