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Sure, here it is!Quote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
Sobre unas Nuevas Falsificaciones y Conspiranoias Varias, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández
The main differences were that these fakes were better. It's weigh was pretty similar, it felt and looked more like a legit card, but in the end, those also were distinguishable.
How is it immoral in any way, shape, or form? You seem to recognise that legality and morality are two very different things, which is a step up from most people in this thread, but you haven't provided any basis for your argument. So on what grounds do you argue that it is somehow immoral for people to buy a few fakes to play with their mates? Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I mean, consider that Wizards doesn't even print many cards necessary to play legacy due to the reserve list, and an unwillingness to reprint staples like Force of Will and Wasteland, and you can't even call it stealing. It's not illegal to obtain these for personal use, and the only real issue with it is that the cards are produced by a legitimate third party group that are practising copyright infringement. If your argument consists of depicting copyright infringement as immoral behaviour, that's a pretty low bar, especially given that in this case, copyright protection is actually hindering a healthy market process. This is a good post on the issue of copyright and morality, though there are many others out there. Here's a quote from an actual copyright lawyer of 27 years on the subject:
From this article.Quote:
In terms of morality and the Valenti quote. To me, copyright is an economic right, not a moral right and does not raise moral issues. The Second Circuit made this point too, agreeing with Judge Lynch:
“Copyright and trademark are not matters of strong moral principle.
Intellectual property regimes are economic legislation based on policy
decisions that assign rights based on assessments of what legal rules will produce the greatest economic good for society as a whole.” Sarl Louis Feraud Int’l v. Viewfinder, Inc., 406 F. Supp. 2d 274, 281 (S.D.N.Y. 2005), affirmed on this point, vacated and remanded on other grounds, 489 F.3d 474, 480 n.3 (2d Cir. 2007).
Morality is used in the Copyright Wars as a way to cover up the inability to justify expansion of rights on economic grounds.
It isn't even clear that copyright fulfils its stated purpose, which is to promote innovation, so really, the whole copyright-infringement-morality argument seems pretty damn shaky. As I've already tried to get through to people a number of times now, morality has no bearing on this discussion, and is a fall-back for those without any argument to speak of. There is nothing wrong with a few guys buying these and playing with their mates, provided they don't sell them, and don't try to trade them under the guise of them being real cards (disclosed trades should be fine, undisclosed trades would probably constitute fraud).
As for insinuating that I'm somehow involved in the production of counterfeits, don't be a child. Not only is that kind of accusation intellectually lazy, it doesn't add anything to the discussion at hand. If you find it suspicious that I make it my duty to be well informed and educated, maybe you should be playing less magic, and doing more reading.
I am in support of reprints, but I cannot condone counterfeits. Furthermore, I feel a number of things you stated were misleading.
Playability and reprints are both parts of the supply/demand curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
How did you arrive at that figure of 90%? I would call it an exaggeration, but that would be giving it too much credit because I feel like you just pulled it out of your ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
They are not 90% of the tournament scene, regardless of what metric you want to use, whether it's aggregate attendance, prize support, or whatever. SCG holds about 40 Legacy Opens each year, averaging perhaps 300 players per event, for a total of 12000 participants. One of my local game stores alone holds 50 weeklies with 30-40 players, accounting for at least 1500 players on just Monday nights alone, not even counting attendance from the larger (roughly monthly events) from that store alone, a number which by itself would already contradict your assertion of "90% of the US legacy tournament scene". There are dozens of other stores in the area that hold Legacy events, to say nothing of other large stores across the country.
This is complete conjecture, and while it may happen, SCG has strengthened its commitment to Legacy in the last year by replacing all non-Legacy Sunday Opens with Legacy Sunday Opens for 2014. No one but the employees at SCG can know with certainty what their future plans are, but simply asserting something to match your assumptions does not make your case more compelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Many players have asked why SCG doesn't hold Modern tournaments on various forums, as well as on SCG's feedback page itself. This is not surprising, since a very vocal subset of players were convinced that SCG was going to abandon Legacy support in favor of Modern two years ago, and they considered the double Standard, Team Sealed, etc. Sunday Opens as part of a progression towards that end. When SCG announced that they were going back to Standard/Legacy Opens only, these players commented on the announcement page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Even more players have applauded SCG for further committing to Legacy.
The production, sale, and use (in tournaments) of counterfeits are both illegal and immoral.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Price is determined using both supply and demand, and you can't have a price without some form of demand. The number of cards in circulation constitutes the supply, and the playability of a card constitutes the vast bulk of its demand, with collectibility coming in at a distant second. If you have a vast supply, even the most highly sought after card will be cheap, but this isn't what we're talking about here. The cards we're discussing are limited in supply, and their demand comes from the fact that they are the best cards at what they do, in what is currently the premier competitive format in the game. Without playability, most cards are effectively worthless, as most every card in the game outside of a small percentage actually is. I honestly don't understand how people can be refuting this point, because it's basic -- we're talking about the exception when we discuss expensive cards, because the vast majority that have ever been printed are barely worth more than the cardboard they're printed on. They're not expensive because they're not playable.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Case in point: strip mine is practically worthless, while wasteland is now $100. If strip mine were playable in legacy, it would be a 4-of in most decks. Since it's banned, it has no playability, and thus no demand. It's effectively worthless because it isn't legal in any relevant format.
You're discounting the effect that providing prize money and streamed tournaments has on the scene. Without high profile tournaments and coverage, legacy would lose relevance very, very fast. I mean, how many people give a shit about vintage now? I bet the number is staggering, dozens even. Without SCG, legacy would be in a lot of trouble, and I don't think anybody who's being honest with themselves can really deny that.Quote:
How did you arrive at that figure of 90%? I would call it an exaggeration, but that would be giving it too much credit because I feel like you just pulled it out of your ass.
They are not 90% of the tournament scene, regardless of what metric you want to use, whether it's aggregate attendance, prize support, or whatever. SCG holds about 40 Legacy Opens each year, averaging perhaps 300 players per event, for a total of 12000 participants. One of my local game stores alone holds 50 weeklies with 30-40 players, accounting for at least 1500 players on just Monday nights alone, not even counting attendance from the larger (roughly monthly events) from that store alone, a number which by itself would already contradict your assertion of "90% of the US legacy tournament scene". There are dozens of other stores in the area that hold Legacy events, to say nothing of other large stores across the country.
I'm well aware of SCG's commitment, I'm saying it won't be the norm for the long term. In fact I specifically chose the words "as early as next year", because SCG has made a commitment to legacy for 2014. But don't kid yourself that they would stick with the format if modern proved to be a more profitable venture. Modern likely already has a larger playerbase, and if it stays on its current trajectory, will eventually overtake legacy through sheer power of numbers. According to the latest figures, there are an estimated 12 million people playing the game now, and roughly 300,000 of each revised dual in existence. That's 75,000 playsets for a total of 750,000 across all ten duals. How long until modern goes past this figure? There's a glut of new players that have just experienced (or are about to experience) their first rotation, and clamouring for fetches to be reprinted so that they can get into modern. If even 10% of all players buy in (and they will, modern is being pushed very, very hard by Wizards), they'll already have cruised past the upper limit of what legacy is able to support. With consistent reprints, it's pretty inconceivable that modern won't replace legacy in the long term.Quote:
This is complete conjecture, and while it may happen, SCG has strengthened its commitment to Legacy in the last year by replacing all non-Legacy Sunday Opens with Legacy Sunday Opens for 2014. No one but the employees at SCG can know with certainty what their future plans are, but simply asserting something to match your assumptions does not make your case more compelling.
I'm not talking about older players, I'm talking about new players. Once demand reaches critical mass, SCG will absolutely replace legacy. If you can't see this, you're fooling yourself.Quote:
Many players have asked why SCG doesn't hold Modern tournaments on various forums, as well as on SCG's feedback page itself. This is not surprising, since a very vocal subset of players were convinced that SCG was going to abandon Legacy support in favor of Modern two years ago, and they considered the double Standard, Team Sealed, etc. Sunday Opens as part of a progression towards that end. When SCG announced that they were going back to Standard/Legacy Opens only, these players commented on the announcement page.
And I'm one of them. You don't seem to realise that I'm on the side of legacy in all of this.Quote:
Even more players have applauded SCG for further committing to Legacy.
See my previous post, this has nothing to do with morality.Quote:
The production, sale, and use (in tournaments) of counterfeits are both illegal and immoral.
I hope everyone could tell I was being a snarky butthole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Zero-sum econ is one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard of. Money I spend at the bar is not money Best Buy 'lost'. Trust me, that was always beer money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
I appreciate your response. I do agree with some of what you're saying, but I disagree with the extent of the conclusions you are reaching, and it is because of that disagreement that we have different opinions on Legacy's ability to survive without SCG. (I think Legacy would be significantly hampered but still continue at the LGS scene.)
Thank you very much! I have one question: Do the 2012 Fakes pass the Light-Test? For me comparing size + light test seems to be the most adequate method right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
+1 TsumiBandQuote:
Originally Posted by TsumiBand
I don't want this to turn into a "discussion" on the idiocy that is zero-sum economics (why do you kids even go to college these days? why go into such debt for the privilege of attending these zombie factories?) Anyway...
Can someone please explain how I'm stealing $$ from Wizards if I'm purchasing out of print cards from a counterfeiter? Last I knew, Wizards does not sell singles directly.
And why are we sooo concerned with Wizard's bottom line???? They didn't make Magic! Barack Obama and the federal government made Magic! Hey Richard Garfield, you didn't make Magic!! Your government did. How dare you make a profit!!
(that's being snarky.)
Isn't Magic WotC's? They may do whatever they want to do, e.g. not print the old cards. Isnt' it their right?
And... yes, maybe they lose money by not printing boosters with original duals, but otoh, maybe the fact that they don't sell boosters with original duals is the reason why their boosters with Call of the Herd, Goblin Piledriver, Skullclamp, Horizon Canopy and Emrakul sold/sell. I think that WotC knows better than us what brings them money.
But I still think that RL is stupidity and that the reprints should have been plenty.
I think the most important question is if the cards are sleeve playable. If they're practically undetectable from across the table while playing a game, that's as good as they have to be for people to want them.
You don't "steal" money from Wizards, you "steal" money from secondary market traders. But by that twisted logic, secondary market traders also "steal" money from you when they jack up the staple prices for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
Why is this so important? :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by [SLAYER]chaos
I really don't care whether my opponent is playing proxies or not (even in tournaments) - MtG shouldn't be a status symbol. I just don't want to get scammed when someone tries to sell me fakes as real ones.
Why do people want to buy close to indistinguishable fakes/proxies for "personal use at home" when they can just use pencil and paper? What's the intension?
Because pencil and paper / marker'd Plains proxies look absolutely hideous. Though a good printer and some patience get good slip-in-front-of-bad-cards style proxies you may not even notice as fake at a glance, so they don't ruin the play experience. Much better when you can just glance at a card to identify it, makes playing the game less stressful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan/
My buddies and I proxy decks literally all the time for various reasons, mainly for play testing reasons. We use my (or our public library) printer and use magiccard.info proxies to do so. I've never wanted better proxies. I put basic lands in sleeves and slide the cut-outs in over them. Works fine. I can proxy 3 full 75 card lists with one set of ink cartridges, the quality is very high and the printer is run of the mill. If you want good proxies just do it that way. No need to reward illegitimate business practices when there are other, just as rewarding ways to reach the same end: non-tournament legal proxies. I see no reason for wanting more than that.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.
2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.
To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew everybody's intentions and motivations for buying these cards. Are you God or Santa Claus? Also, why do you care where your opponent got his or her wizard-paper from if you get to play the game against more people, more regularly? The only obnoxious thing about it is your attitude, which is based almost entirely on unfounded conjecture. If your playing experience is that connected to the worth of your cardboard, it might be an idea to get out of legacy while the going is good. SCG will get out at some stage, and the prices will all come tumbling down. It's gravity. Counterfeits are not what you should be afraid of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins
Thanks for being civil about it, and I understand your reservations. I'm also in favour of reprints, but at this stage, my deep fear is that WotC were dumb enough to settle out of court on a lawsuit regarding the reserved list. I think it's the only rational explanation for why they haven't reprinted the cards, and why their reasons for doing so are unable to be disclosed to the players. I never bought into the whole promissory estoppel thing, but if they settled on a previous lawsuit, it would provide a precedent they would need to honour in the event that the list were repealed.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Now, I'm not saying this is right, but it's the simplest explanation that makes sense to me. What's scarier is that if it is right, then that's effectively it; reprints are not coming, end of story. I don't think anyone seriously believes that the format can sustain itself on $200 lands, and even the fact that it's gotten this far is remarkable. Nevertheless, it's completely unsustainable in the long term, and no one is benefiting from it, not even the players who want eternally high prices. And unlike counterfeits, these prices genuinely do scare me, because I believe they do have the potential to kill the format.
Calm down, cowboy. It's not ludicrous. I'm doing exactly what you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins
I've printed my own "high-quality" proxies to use casually for years, and I'm not the only person that does. I own a high-end printer, and I don't want to play with a sharpie'd basic because it takes me out of the experience of playing with my buddies - I'm a fan of how cards look aesthetically, but I'm not doing to drop $250 on another Underground for my third EDH deck.
Printing my own proxies was a lot of work - from scanning/finding really hi-res images to acquiring card stock that is decent enough to feel undetectable when shuffling in sleeves. I didn't print with backs because I had no reason to do so, but the fronts are pretty much perfect from more than a few inches away. They took a lot of time (and a little money) to make them the way I wanted them to be. I enjoy the results, but I'd quickly pass up on the labor and time if I could buy comparable proxies for a few dollars.
Yes, for tabletop play with my friends. Or more accurately, casual games at my LGS on my way home from work. Not everyone who has/wants/uses fake cards is a villain.
I'm Santa Claus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Did I say I cared? I personally couldn't care less if people use proxies - I do all the time. I print them out for free and tape them to basic lands.... I wouldn't even care if they were allowed in tournament play. If someone can't afford, say, a Jace TMS but needs it for a deck, I wouldn't mind at all if they used a proxy instead - I say go for it. I was just listing the two primary ways in which these proxies will be used, to pretend as though the main usage of these fakes will be people using them as pretty proxies to play with their buddies is fucking absurd. The people that will pay those prices to get fakes shipped in from China so they can use them as attractive proxies will account for about .00000001% of these sales, the vast majority of people aren't going to pay those prices just for "fake" cards in kitchen table games when they can make high quality proxies for free using their printers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
I do, however, have a problem with scumbags reselling these fakes as legitimate cards for hugely inflated prices - and people will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, do exactly that. Hell, some of the people playing with these in tournaments might not even know they're playing with fakes... if they're not knowledgeable enough about corner shape and printing patterns. Every sale that website makes supports that practice whether you want to acknowledge it or not - if you buy 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards so you can use them casually with your buddies you are funding the business that also just sent 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards to the guy who will sell them to some unfortunate sucker under the pretense that they're legitimate. I'm wicked sorry that I offended your delicate sensibilities when I called these Chinese fakes obnoxious, but they are.
Again, you have no evidence for this assertion. The game already has numerous legal proxies in the form of championship decks, and non-tournament-legal force of wills go for $20 as we speak. It's not inconceivable that people would pay more for cards that don't have a gaudy gold border and different back. In fact, I would estimate that the vast majority of sales will go to players who have some form of disposable income (enough to play modern) but are unable to justify buying into legacy. If they want to play these in their EDH decks, or play legacy with their mates, that's actually a good thing for those respective formats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins
And... so do I? I'm not condoning the fact that some people will sell these as legitimate (though I don't have a problem with them being sold as fully-disclosed fakes), but it isn't my place to protect idiots from themselves. You should always know what it is that you're buying, and if you want the genuine article, you should know how to distinguish it from fakes, especially if you're considering paying $200 per land. This applies to anything, not just cards. I mean, your whole argument is effectively conjecture regarding the intentions of the people buying these cards, and that a few gullible people might inadvertently purchase them, thinking them the real thing. Sure, it's probable there are a few dickheads out there that will do this, but if it's a choice between more accessibility, players, and games, and preventing a few people from making poor decisions, I'll choose the former every time. Even then, if the cards get so good that they're effectively indistinguishable from the real thing, then there's no need to worry, because at that stage, they are the real thing.Quote:
I do, however, have a problem with scumbags reselling these fakes as legitimate cards for hugely inflated prices - and people will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, do exactly that. Hell, some of the people playing with these in tournaments might not even know they're playing with fakes... if they're not knowledgeable enough about corner shape and printing patterns. Every sale that website makes supports that practice whether you want to acknowledge it or not - if you buy 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards so you can use them casually with your buddies you are funding the business that also just sent 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards to the guy who will sell them to some unfortunate sucker under the pretense that they're legitimate. I'm wicked sorry that I offended your delicate sensibilities when I called these Chinese fakes obnoxious, but they are.
Honestly, I didn't read most of what you wrote. I sort of have a headache and am not in the mood for a lot of what I suspect is rationalizing (I apologize if I'm incorrect). However, I will say that buying counterfeits is not actually moral according to a utilitarian ideal. You are buying cheap fakes for your own personal benefit. Not only does this not contribute to the group as a whole in any way, but it actively hurts the group. Buying counterfeits directly results in the printing of more counterfeits; the eventual result of which is that Magic the Gathering can no longer be supported by Wizards, SCG, and local gaming stores. Buying counterfeits benefits the buyer (short-term at least) in that they've gotten cards for cheap but is at the expense of everyone else who plays Magic. That is not utilitarianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
I suppose you might prattle on about how counterfeits bring down the price of cards and how cheaper cards are better for everyone, kumbaya. That might be reasonable if that were the actual endgame. Unfortunately, the real endgame of excellent counterfeits permeating the market is that Magic disappears because it ceases to be profitable for Hasbro and gaming stores to support.
1. Doing something for your own personal benefit doesn't preclude the possibility of it being beneficial to the group. Given that economics is about the distribution of resources, if counterfeits improve the ability of the market to allocate resources to consumers (so long as the fake is a effective substitute for the real thing), then the net result is beneficial. Given that we're talking about a minority of cards that Wizards no longer prints, these counterfeits have the capacity to expand the market. It would have been better had they done it themselves, but here we are; the market is sorting it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
2. There's no evidence to suggest that this will kill magic; I can't think of a single example of counterfeits causing the kind of market crash people are afraid of in this thread. Limited cannot be touched by definition, and is one of the biggest formats, if not the biggest. New cards take time and money to get right, especially with new anti-counterfeiting measures coming in this year. Meanwhile, the counterfeiters can't even get 20 year old cards right, using public domain fonts. Modern, legacy, and EDH will be affected, but Wizards makes no direct profit from the secondary market anyway. Your LGS might be affected, though I don't know of any LGS that doesn't do the bulk of its trade in limited and standard anyway.
3. If we don't get new cards into circulation, legacy is stuffed as a format. The price bubble will eventually burst when SCG moves over to modern, which will almost certainly happen at some stage, unless something goes catastrophically wrong with modern within the next year or two. When that happens, we lose the bulk of the tournament scene, card value, and the format becomes an oddity played in small groups at your LGS.
You are possibly correct, but more likely delusional. I've been playing t1.5/legacy since before FoW rotated out of extended and while the price of cards considered staples in this format have risen in value over the years, this particular format has never been more popular, despite the price to play it. I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
If counterfeits become successful (ie near impossible to detect) and widespread it could very well ultimately mean the end of magic. I think many people tend to forget that what made mtg the remarkable success that it is today is that sweet fusion of collectability and a great game. Intrindically tied to the concept of collectability is scarcity and value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Part of what makes players buy new product is the (qasi-illusory) notion that what they are buying has the potential to become valuable and could be sold at a profit. If it becomes known that every year hundreds of thousands of counterfeits will be pumped into the market at a six month delay from when wotc release a new set (due to them needing time to get the newest cards right) then people will lose the incentive to buy new product which will eventually mean no more new magic cards.
Apologies for typos, writing from my phone.
The Case For Passable Proxies
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is my opinion, my case, and defense of passable proxies. These proxies are great, and I see no ethical problem with them provided people aren't selling or trading them as real cards. Unfortunately, there are some people who will do this. But players who are just using the proxies for gameplay shouldn't be shamed or judged.
The proxies are good because they allow players to have a good paper Magic the Gathering experience without having to spend a small fortune. These proxies also don't hinder or affect gameplay unlike handwritten or low quality proxies (crappy proxies encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint at cards. These cards often have inferior resolution, or no picture at all, which makes it harder to identify and recognize certain cards. All of these things slow down game play).
Passable proxies eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that has nothing to do with gameplay. They allow players that don't have thousands of dollars to play magic still have a good paper magic the gathering experience and compete with players that invest a lot of money in cards. If Jasmine has a $2500 American Control deck, and I have a $3000 Stoneblade deck, but it is made from passable proxies, I only have to pay $100 but I can still have competitive pick me up games with Jasmine at a LGS without having to spend thousands of dollars. This is a good thing because it makes a game about competition rather than money.
The proxies don't hurt wizards at all because they don't print these cards anymore and they don't sell singles anymore. The proxies won't kill the secondary market for real cards because some players like supporting wizards of the coast and their LGS. Many players like having real cards. Some players don't like buying cards online. Some players don't like the fake cards, because even though they are passable, they still are distinguishable, etc.
Dood, if you want to Proxy up a deck for playing, Inform your store and playgroup and make some with a 40$ Printer. We are cool with that locally. The only reason form making indistinguishable fakes is ripping off people or cheat on sanctioned event judges while you have marked cards in your deck as those cards feel different from the restQuote:
Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat
This would be true if the duals were designed as collectibles, but the revised duals specifically weren't. That's the reason for them having a white border, because it indicated that their print run was effectively unlimited, and they were intended for use as game pieces. Black-bordered duals from alpha and beta were limited, and intended as collector's items because they were aesthetically superior. This is also the reason there are so many duals in existence; duals are not rare, but the supply is strained relative to the player base. This is exacerbated by the fact that speculators have bought in, because the reserved list means the price of duals never actually fluctuates, and only ever goes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Secondly, many players buy new cards because they're new cards. New limited formats will always have appeal, and standard has rotation built into it to ensure that people keep buying. That's the whole point of these systems. People won't stop buying cards, because they're the only source of new playables, and you can always verify that the card is real. Even with perfect counterfeits, there is still a lag between when new cards come out, and how soon counterfeiters can produce a passable copy. There's both time and cost involved. Pulling a sweet card is always good, but it's not the primary motivation for cracking packs.
I won't discount the possibility. At the end of the day, time will reveal all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
The problem with your line of thinking is that uncontrolled price rises are almost never a sign of economic health, and are instead an indication of a bubble. When bubbles pop, you do get the kind of economic collapse people here are afraid of. Incidentally, the presence of counterfeits is often a sign that there is a bubble, because the price of the commodity has detached from its inherent value, allowing counterfeiters space to operate within the market. As I mentioned earlier, the cost of buying into a format directly correlates with the number of people that play that format. That alone should be cause for alarm if the price of playing legacy keeps climbing ever higher. Eventually, a point will be reached where -- at best -- the population stays constant. More likely, it gradually decreases. If SCG ever moves away from legacy, the prize money dries up, the tournament scene takes a massive hit, people sell out, and card values collapse. Even Wizards can see that legacy right now is unsustainable without new cards.
That's only partly true. Yes, prices have risen due to higher demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
However, there are also the big dealers and speculators who drive prices sky-high for their own profit. SCG isn't providing Opens because they're nice guys, but cuttthroat dealers who abuse their quasi-monopoly to dictate the price of the secondary market. They've clearly shown that they're willing to drop Legacy in a heartbeat if something more profitable comes along (i.e. Modern). It's only a matter of time now since prices become more and more unsustainable with the rising prices. The old "corner the market and jack up the price" tactic has a limit before people say "Fuck it!" and we're probably going to see it soon, probably at the end of this year or next year with the current pace. I wouldn't be suprised if Underground Seas hit 500$ at the end of the year.
If a goddamn website bug causes Cabal Therapy to double in price and it stays high afterwards, you know there' something terrible wrong with the ecosystem.
Edit:
http://www.abugames.com/images/media...e/ABUG2002.jpg
Not true. Reread what I wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If you actually read what I'd wrote, you'd learn about other reasons why people want to play with passable proxies (they want an indistinguishable gameplay experience without spending thousands of dollars, they don't want to slow down the game with crappy proxies, they play in play circles where crappy proxies are frowned upon, etc.)
I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Because home printed proxies are crappy and have inferior resolution, quality, and coloring. They encourage players to double take and gawk at cards which slows down and hinders game play. There are also white knights and haters who on principle refuse to play against proxies because they don't look like real cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Explain to me how passable proxies threaten the entire tournament structure when they don't affect game play at all. Be specific too. People aren't going to stop buying real cards just because there are counterfeits. You certainly aren't. People never stopped buying Gucci bags, Lacoste shirts and iPods.
Play pauper.Quote:
Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat
Oh I missed that fake Gucci bags and Lacoste shirts aren't sold to naive people ... wait ... what? They are?! Duh!Quote:
Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat
I only hate people that make proxies that are easily distinguishable within sleeves and use that for cheating. If you have some douches in your playgroup bitching around if someone wants to try deck x in a local 4-rounder before buying into the deck at last, get a new group.
I have no clue why coloring should hinder gameplay. That's a bunch of crap you posted here...
Wtf. Are you kidding me? Are you not familiar with inkjet? I'm done arguing about this. I'll post pictures this evening of my home printed proxies off a 4-in-1inkjet printer you could get at any best buy from over 2 years ago and then you can take your crappy, inferior resolution, double-take inducing arguments and try to not look like a fool to the entire magic community. Pathetic.
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So the price is still 25ish $ for 56 cards?
What cards do they offer? Do they accept paypal?
And then there's this guy...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FFVWEQnSMQuote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
They offer free identity theft services, and they'll accept whatever form of payment you want to provide them.Quote:
Originally Posted by swoop
The way I see it, it doesn't matter what the duals were 'intended' as. Something might be intended to be a collector's item within MTG while something else is less so intended, but every magic card is in principle a collectable item. Magic cards are BOTH game pieces AND collectable trinkets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
I will agree with you that, in a vacuum, the few legacy staples that are on the reserved list being forged won't hurt wotc's bottom line or hurt MTG. But the problem is, that something like this doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even if the counterfeiters only forged cards on the reserved list, the mere fact that these forgeries exist and can be mass produced will be detrimental to MTG as a whole because it will drive a fear into the heart of the player base, because how can you know they are only forging reserved list cards? If they indeed have the tools to do this then why on earth would they stop there when Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants and other non-reserve list cards are worth so much that it would be tantamount to printing their own money.
If this truth gets to settle and fester: "you will NEVER know if ANY card you own, except if you actually pulled it out of the boosterpack yourself, is real or fake", then I'd say that would kill the game eventually. Up until now everyone probably will agree that in theory forgeries can exist that are so good that it would be impossible to know the difference. But the pivotal difference is the scale. This has never had to go beyond theorizing because the whole MTG world works under the assumption that counterfeits of the highest quality would never be able to be mass produced. We trust that WOTC would never allow this to happen, either by making their product so relatively hard to fake or by taking legal action whenever something like this props up.
Once this (admittedly illusory) notion crumbles then it fundamentally changes everything. In principle we could all just write the names of the cards we want to play with on basic lands with a magic marker. If the appeal of MTG was ONLY about the game as a bunch of interactions and a cerebral exercise then the aesthetics and collectability wouldn't matter at all. No, collectability and the illusion of value matters tremendously. The whole secondary economy is a huge part of MTG and that would effectively disappear if the above mentioned truth becomes so. Would MTG continue beyond that? Well it depends on whether you believe people would continue to pay $5 for a pack of 15 random games pieces that have no value beyond their function in the game. I don't think it would.
Hello,
did I get something wrong or is this a Game with is desinged to be played and not to bec collected as enshurence for your wellfare.
And pls try to understand that the guys you are protecting, the secound markets sellers are the ones who are actually threaten the Game.
they are the ones who are holding back cards and creating a price increase to get more money out of it and only
support the format because they can make money with it.
They are the ones who are creating the buble by keeping the supply low artificially.
This is not near to even the thought of a healthy market and we all have senn what happens when this lasts long engough, you maybe
know Detroit and I think you all know the property crisis.
the counterfeights are not a threat they are a chance to wake up and see what went wrong and that we maybe should overthinking
the attitude towards our cards and the game we are playing.
We have to get back to a healthy market were the difficulties to enter it are not a actually a reason why this format is in Danger.
So I sugest we all should thinking over the prices of our cards again and maybe take the counterfeights as a guideline to reavaluate
the prices for our cards byourself and then establish a new player to player trade organisation to avoid the high prices
of SCG and other retailers. In europe we allready have some.
all in all we have to rethink what we want from this game and if it is playing and not earining money, if it is overthink if this is the right place to do,
then we should try to decrease the price whith all tools aviable and therefore recreate a healthy market with actually can grow.
Because then we will have more tournements and fun as now, because more people will join the market.
Ah last word we are talking about ecomoics so moral is not a thing you should even concider to mention here.
Best Regards Teveshszat