Would Rolling Earthquake be an option?
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Would Rolling Earthquake be an option?
That seems worse than Firespout, since it costs 3R for a similar effect, and you can't make it hit only flying or non-flying creatures. For 2 mana Pyroclasm seems better.Quote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
Yeah true, I guess in a low mana deck like this the X will never be more than 2-3 really.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Treasureless list (6/118): http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14900&iddeck=110391
Quite an overload of cmc3 cards in sb. But as two of them are against non-Waste decks, this might be appropriate. I still cannot swallow the absence of Spell Snare, but maybe it's just me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
Speaking of the new UR Delver builds, I'm speaking strictly of MWS experiences. But I'm still pretty hesitant to use BEB, as it's crappy card 90 % of time. All that it stops is Swiftspear (and accoasiaonla burn spell) while being useless in any other mu, I cannot imagine any reasonable scenario where it would be a good card to sb in. Flusterstorm has got its applications against Terminus, Stifle, discard and storm in general, so I'll take my change to avoid/outplay UR pilots while having some cards to bring in against the rest of field.Quote:
I'm curious to know what everyone else's experience with RUG against U/R Delver has been like. Swiftspear is just so aggressive (often bigger than Goyf in the early game), and Blood Moon or Price of Progress out of the board hurts. I'm considering replacing Flusterstorms with Hydroblasts to deal with these.
Frankly, Swiftspear is more annoying than anything else, but if they got a constant stream of cantrips, it can get out of hand. IDK. BEB is sooo narrow, yet reliable in dealing with the monk, that I got no real opinion on it. for now I'll don't use it, but if those decks become more usual, IO may consider ading a copy or two.
For me, the main trouble is this:
- I want two slots against Elves and grave decks; I want two Cages. (and I'd love to squeeze Crypt in to supppress thresh, stop opposing LftL, etc.)
- I want at least one (but rather two) Needle, becasue it stops otherwise deadly cards (Liliana) or the ones that help the opponent in tremendous way (Top, even DRS)
- I want Pyroblasts, and yes, I rather want to stop TC than a mere 1/2 dude. Three are a must, imho, esp. as this is cantrip format.
- I want Flusterstoms, becasue RUG plays no Countertop/Chalice/bears and Storm is not that easy mu.
- Losing to Batterskull (or Chalice lock or WCE or Ensnaring Bridge) is not on my list of priorities. With the premiere equipment all over the place, Artifact Mutation is brilliant. The otehr slot might be anything else, I prefer Grudge due to in-built CA, but one may consider Revelry as it destroys Moon. Still, one slot is not enogh, imho.
- So this leaves me with what, four slots? Rough/Tumble is a no-brainer (I just realized that once in a pale moon it may kill Tstalker, wow!), because elves, DnT and your-usual-deck-with-DRS-and-Bob are legitimate part of meta. And I guess we all know how good is RUG in fighting through opposing walls, be it KotR (not exactly everyday's choice) or... umm... Goyf; so yeah, two Submerges are that.
That's some perfect fifteen, isn't that? :scratches head:
Just to post here so you don't feel alone with your headache, Elves would love to:
- Have a lot of combo hate in the board that ideally allows it to develop at the same time.
- Can't play Teeg because you need NO for speed but Teeg kills that.
- The more creatures you board out, the worse Glimpse becomes as a power spell and utility card.
- Same hate doesn't necessarily apply for Storm and Show and Tell.
- Need to beat Miracles. Again, Teeg would be good but lolnope. 2-4 Needle/Null Rods is ideal.
- Graveyard hate, GY combo is bad. Cage would be good, but again, NO/GSZ engine rears it's ugly head.
- Decay to answer hate cards/Delver
- Utility cards/NO targets somewhere in the 75 to shore up fair matchups/S&T postboard.
You have at most 2-3 flex slots for utility cards in the main, rest needs to be handled in the SB. There's just not enough room.
I'm considering a special slot for sb in case TC decks will be good. I may play it either alongside two Cages, or maybe instead of one.
Phyrexian Furnace - good thing about this card is that they cannot choose which (worst) card they'd remove, it simply take the bottom one, done.
Scrabbling Claws - what I like is that I may remove my own stuff in response to DRS activation - losing the targeted card, but yeah, I'd lose it anyway, but now I'm stopping the elf -, so this forces them to use they're own gy and further increasing pressure against that grave and decreasing usage of it.
But honestly, those cards are pretty narrow, and there's trouble that they might not even matter in particular game/match, although this is somehow negated by the fact that they cantrip. However, this is kind of a "pitches to FoW" argument and that's moot point...
before i went to pilot UGinfect the past weeks, im running that certain list - 2 chains + 1tarfire +1forkedQuote:
Originally Posted by SORO
im always glad seeing my all time favorite deck doin very good still!
I top 4'd a 41 man today with nearly the same 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
Maindeck changes: -1 spell pierce, +1 spell snare
Sideboard changes: -1 sulfuric vortex, -1 pyroblast, +1 V clique, +1 spell snare.
Deck was good all day, games I lost didn't involve cruise, just really hot draws.
Matt, what's the reason for Snare in sb? Against Goyf decks you take Submerge, and except for Jund with its overload of cmc2 cards (Hymn, Bob, Ooze, Library, PFire) and maybe Miracles (CB and CS), I don't see much need for it.
I mean... I play two Snares, so it may seem silly to argue against it, but I maindeck them, so that's the difference. And I even very often side them out for more live cards.
But yeah, maybe your approach is right. After all, there are mus where you may use Snare only against Goyf and nothing else, and you even take Snares out for Submerges in g2+g3. So it's not like the card is crucial, while it may help in those mus where the :2: spells are more usual - like the above examples -, so you simply sb them in when you need to stop that Chalice, CBalance, IT, Goyf, Hymn or whatever else...
Oh, congrats on your result! Btw, what have you won? Anything spicy?
Snare was straight over-performing in testing. I tested a lot against UWR delver where the submerge is useless but snare freed up my bolts to hit delvers instead and it was impossible to play around. Obvious targets are goyf, counterbalance, stoneforge mystic, rest in peace (sometimes back breaking), snapcaster, young pyromancer (This fucker stalls all the ground troups while delver dies really fast), scavenging ooze, and daze (/sarcasm). I didn't find it stranded in my hand and was only unhappy with it once after I drew it following a goyf resolution. If anything, I think it really compliments the submerge opposing goyf plan. You time walk them and then get to tempo them and it feels GREAT. I've been playing with the card since Dreadstill though so it's really to taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Additionally it was a meta decision. Some of the best players in the area show up with Miracles regardless of how well the deck is positioned. In this event they cannibalized themselves early and I happened to dodge miracles somehow and instead played against 2 rounds of delver, painter, esper stoneblade with lingering souls, and blue maverick. Snare was fine against what I expected and useful against what I actually faced.
Store credit, which I've been using towards getting vintage staples and birthday gifts for those at my store that have to routinely borrow cards. I got an Unlimited set of power, time vault, and 1 Mishra's workshop from it. Can't wait for Legacy/Vintage Champs!
So this just took 4th place at the SCG today:
4 Delver
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Jitte
1 VClique
I don't know how I feel about the sideboard. nor young pyromancer but the YP has been hot lately. I also wonder why 3 krosan Grip's and 6 blasts! I can't see this deck not maindecking spellsnare or Git Probe with YP maindecked. I have to give it some testing before I'm sold on it. Also would like to see Joan Anton Mateo do a tournament report on it.
Well, that would be me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
I also top4:ed the previous Danish Legacy Masters just half a year ago with the exact same MD:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13661&iddeck=100355
I went 6-1 in the swiss and lost to D&T in top8. I played against a total of 3 decks with treasure cruise. I let it resolve every time. If it does not kill me or my Nimble Mongoose, I rarely bother.
If I was to express my feelings regarding the current trends in RUG in general and the last couple of pages of this thread in particular, I would say I am not that impressed. I don't need a lot of cards to win, I need the right cards at the right time. And honestly, the right card is pretty much Nimble Mongoose, every time. Therefore, I am reluctant to make changes to a deck I've been playing with success for 6+ years if it includes removing Mongoose, adding 2-drops and nerfing my own sweepers. It would change my playstyle and entire gameplan in almost every matchup, and being old and tired, I'm just not that interested ;)
With that said, I confess that cruise is a fantastic card that generates new gameplans on its own. Just not for this deck.
Congratulations for your great results (We would thank a report:smile:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly_Bear
Last week I´ve been playing against Delver-Treasure decks and my Canadian worked as well as always. Treasure is not a problem neither a solution for us (knowing that Joan Anton Mateo did a great tournament in Worcester with the "RUG-Treasure"). I will definitely continue with my mongoose.
So @ SCG Worcester, I ran the 3 Stifle, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Gitaxian Probe list, and this is the sideboard I figured out:
3 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Submerge
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
I got to 5-1 but I lost the last two rounds and finished a middling 38th. However, I was able to beat U/R Delver all three times I was paired against it. If you are able to answer their creatures, their deck is mostly cantrips and a few burn spells, they mostly spin their wheels and are unable to do anything about our large green creatures. Hydroblast definitely made it easy, but probably isn't necessary. So beating U/R Delver isn't too big a deal, it's the other decks in the meta like Reanimator and BUG Delver (which are what I lost to in the final 2 rounds) that I need to have a better strategy against.
Nimble Mongoose is the reason to play this deck. I wholeheartedly agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly_Bear
Thanks for the list and insight!
Congratulation on our results. And I share your sentiment on NM and RUG in general!Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly_Bear
for those who are testing HOOTING MANDRILS...
what do u guys think of instead of using PIERCES main, we replace it with STUBBORN DENIAL..
its a weaker pierce early on, but when we do stick mandrils or make any of our goyfs a 4 toughness...
then we dont need to worry bout em stps and submerges for our ape...
we are also equipped with a hard counter vs sol lands, manadorks, rituals, cradles...that dodges pierces.
im planning to use tarfires too to support our goyfs even when delving... when i test this out, i'll give u guys an update.
If you want late game counterspells, why not just run counterspells. They have a shot at not being dead early.
I think you are going to end up with a lot more force spikes than counterspells.
I've been running a list with 04 H. Mandrils instead of mongoose, and playing 3 tarfire and 3 stuborn denial in cocktrice, and the deck hasnt lost a game yet. So far so good.
So I want to bring up the argument no one seems to talk about is the sideboard with three cards in particular: Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry, and Krosan Grip. I personally play Krosan Grip for the split second ability, since I fear counterbalance locking me out of the game.
Depends on how many of KGrips you play. If it¨s only one, chances are you'll be locked before you'll find one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
I play three Pyroblasts, as TNN, TC, CB and JTMS are pretty annoying cards I don't wanna lose to. REBs also stops Stifle, any of Storm's cantrips, they kill Delver. I play two Needles to stop SDT, so I'm not that afraid of CB to pack KGrip which is very hard to find and play.
That's why I play Ancient Grudge (because of CA) and Artifact Mutation (as it makes enough saprolings of each BSkull to kill in few swings). I'd play Destructive Revelry if I had another free sb slot, but right now I must prevail with the two mentioned.
I' play KGrip only if the meta would be full of Miracles. It's too expensive.
Play Grip against OmniTell, as well. I run 2 in the board since I used to run a 1/1 Grudge/Grip split. OmniTell can sometimes just get you if you don't have the Grip.
-Matt
care to share the list? what are your matchups? i will try it this weekend..Quote:
Originally Posted by mextremartini
and the sideboards too, thanks!
He said it was this:Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
54 core
-4 Mongoose
+4 Mandrills
+3 Stubborn Denial
+3 Tar Fire
You're really going big on Goyf. I haven't been able to test Stubborn Denial yet... any thoughts?
Stubborn denial is too much of a situation card, so its not worth playing to me, now one might argue that spellsnare is but if you look at just about every deck in legacy has a two drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
If presumably both players are playing treasure cruise then obviously cards like nimble mongoose get bad but tarmogoyf also seems to get weaker because of the added reliance on the graveyard and if both players are delving it might get pretty small. I feel like scavenging ooze could be great at dealing with treasure cruise. Having a play set of scavenging ooze is an issue but how would you guys feel about a 2/2 split with it and quiron dryad? I'm not sure how great it would be but it seems reasonable, though I'm not very experienced with RUG delver period or tarmogoyf in a meta defined by treasure cruise so goyf could still be fine as is but it seems like graveyards empty very quickly now-a-days and the ability to delve out cards like planeswalkers or artifacts seems very potent at shrinking the old standby.
I would run maybe 3 goyf and 1 ooze, def wouldn't run Quirion dryad since it can be in bolt range as soon as it hits the field. I am a firm believer that 4 delver, 4 goyf, 4 mongoose is still the correct build to play the deck. Goose is just too good over card advantage, our game plan is still to timewalk them with stifle and wasteland, while landing a delver or goose and beat them down. Cruise takes away from the gameplan and shrinks our goyfs and kills mongoose. The value you get from Mongoose is insane, not being able to be targeted is a pain for players. It laughs in the face of abrupt decay as our bolts kill DRS. I put the deck down for a break due to being burnt on playing it and picked up TES to play, but this deck is still my fav and always will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheYoungster
I have been running traditional Canadian during the last 2 weeks with a list like Henrik Johansson´s and it works incredibly. Miracles, UR Treasure-Delver, BUG Treasure-Delver, Show and Tell, UWR Delver... Our nice deck is still so powerfull. I´m very happy with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
I would cut the chain lightnings for forked bolts, git probes or spellsnares. I personally run now 1 forked bolt, 2 git probes, and 3 spell pierce. I may go back to 2 spellsnare, 2 spell pierce, and 2 forked bolt, not entirely sure yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
Were the chain lightnings problematic for you against R-Decks like UR(W) Delver?Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
I love to play them, but don't know if it's better now to switch them to forked bolts again with UR Delver everywhere.
So I'm also pondering with the oldschool config 2 pierce, 2 snare/probe, 2 forked bolt like Shifty does.
I won't touch the TC or HM train so far. I love the little mongeese too much.
artifact/enchantment hate topic:
always captured between 1 grudge / 1 krosan (yeah, because of you, miracles!) and 2 destructive revelry...
I'm pretty lazy when it comes to tournaments, so if you stand an MWS experience...
I'm satisfied with Mongoose. Yes, it's tiny, and in lategame it's outclassed by nearly everything. Otoh, our deck is sooo much bad in lategame that it doesn't even matter how we lose. We simply must keep the game in early stage and as long as their StP/Decay don't matter, I'm fine with 3-power beats. I won dozen of games simply due to shroud, where every other creature would either die or at least needed to be protected. Mongoose is our TNN in that it doesn't need an protection while we simply counter every their attempt to get of manascrew, move furtheri plan, or find/set up an anti-shroud answer like EE, Terminus, Liliana or w/e. Yes, Mongoose is not a real TNN, but then again it costs one third of TNN's mana.
I was 4-0 before dropping some close games to UWR delver and Death + Taxes today at Legacy champs. Beat 2x UR delver, death + taxes, Merfolk. Nimble mongoose was crucial in 6 of my game wins and was the only reason I was allowed to have outs in a 7th. He's so amazing that I'd rather have goose than cruise and I'll probably stick with the same list I posted a page or so back come GP NJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
a friend of mine top32ed a 400+ event...he was on the stocklist..ill wait for his report here....this just shows mongoose is still a force to reckon with!
TEMUR ALL THE WAY!
hey guys,
how would you form your sb in a elves, dnt heavy meta ?
something like this ? (MD is stock, 2 snare, 2pierce, 2 forked bolt)
2 Rough
2 sulfur elemental
2 grafdiggers cage
3 pyroblast
2 submerge
1 ancient grudge
2 flusterstorm
1 sylvan library/sulfuric vortex
instead of vortex or sylvan...i would add in another artifact hate...mutation..revelry..grip or a second grudge..the main is perfectly tweakd for a heavy green and white meta..ur sb provides lots of help too..i guess that's ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by index
2 Gitaxian Probe+ 1 Forked Bolt or 2 Chain Lightning+ something else (Fire/Ice, Thought Scour, Spell Snare)???? What is the best option in your opinion?
Finale Legacy CDF Toulouse, 05/10/2014, Ronde 4, UR DELVER vs RUG DELVER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e17CL...a2EvKHcS8sg0oQ
Classic lists still good in JapanQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
http://sanc.jp/bmo02/bom/04.html (feat. cool infect and ohh dat vengevine necro :)
http://sanc.jp/bmo02/legacy/13.html (feat. Repeal Ant)
Funny to see the Dead/Gone. Do you remeber when I mistakenly packed it into my sb instead of Rough/Tumble and it won me the game against Reanimate->Iona? That was hillarious...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
It might be worthy a maindeck slot. I thought about Assault/Battery as a way to either have a crappy answer to DRs or stupid elephant when there's nothing else to do, but Dead/Gone is so much better. It kills DRS/MoR/SFM or removes Goyf/Stalker/KotR. I'll try it.
I just playtested a few games with the new Rug delver list with young pyromancer and I have to say it is a lot better than the mongoose build. I hate to admit this bc I love mongoose and hope to see it return again to shine. Pyromancer shines against decks like esper and bug, makes the match-ups easier and allows us to be more controlling now which keeps people in the early game longer now. For the time being my mongooses are in my rug/tes binder sitting there till I decide to go back to that style of rug.