[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Here are a few questions that I would like to discuss. I feel like discussing individual card choices is difficult until we have a solid, general theoretical understanding of the following issues. I'm wondering, now that everyone knows that TC is really good:

1) What happens to the value of discard spells? One argument goes "Hymn/TS is easy to recover from because of Cruise, so they become worse" and another goes "Hymn/TS are more valuable as ways to counteract opposing cruises." Which is right? Similar question holds for Liliana. How much weaker is the +1 now? Is she closer to being a glorified Diabolic Edict?

2) Did the tapout style or the Stifle style benefit more from TC? I want to say that since TC is a sorcery, you'd like to tap out more often than not, but I don't know if that's really true.

3) How aggressively do we need to lower our curve? Do spells like Hymn become much worse because we need the velocity to enable Cruise earlier? Or can we afford to be more patient with Cruise than other shells?

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Originally Posted by iostream

3) How aggressively do we need to lower our curve? Do spells like Hymn become much worse because we need the velocity to enable Cruise earlier? Or can we afford to be more patient with Cruise than other shells?

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btm10 and I were discussing this point specifically a day or so ago. It seems that if we transition from Hymn to Tourach to say Thoughtseize, we are able to Cruise faster. This change also gives the deck a little more flexibility in the early turns, especially on turn two following a turn one fetch into Deathrite. This would give a slightly more aggressive slant early while also allowing faster TC for reloading. We haven't tested the variations yet, but it is on our radar as something to look into.

I am wondering if a maindeck (or two) Toxic Deluge would be good in the format now. Given that Elves and Young Pyromancer may be increasingly common threats, perhaps Liliana isn't quite the bomb she used to be. I'd still probably want at least 1 copy, but she (and Hymn) seems a bit worse if people are running TCruise. Deluge seems to be a great way to come back from an opponent deploying multiple threats post-Cruise. In a format that moves towards high velocity, Abrupt Decay becomes a bit worse so having a sweeper to make up the difference is pretty important. I certainly loved Deluge when I was running it as a singleton before TCruise was spoiled.

I don't think the deck can really support it with Thoughtseize + Deluge, but here's another thought on the Goyf issue: Bitterblossom? It's a 2cmc evasive threat that seems better equipped to deal with UWr Miracles than most, doesn't rely on the graveyard, and the lifeloss can be mitigated with DRS or binning it with your own ADecay if it really comes down to it. 2 Jitte in the SB would also be pretty great along with this card. Obviously the drawbacks include the lifeloss, making opposing Goyfs monstrous, being pretty slow, susceptible to Spell Pierce, and not immediately providing an onboard threat/blocker. But it's something I've considered playing before to specifically deal with UWR Miracles

Ultimately we are cramped for space and need to figure out what the options really are.

Starting with the following as a given:
19 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Decay
3 TCruise

That leaves 10 cards. Likely 4 slots goes to Goyf, but there are arguments for alternative threats. The 20th Land becomes almost necessary if we decide to play some 3CMC cards and/or Hymn. We want some form of additional disruption, whether it be Hymn, TSeize/IoK, Stifle, Spell Pierce, or whatever. There are arguments going towards running the full playset of TCruise, as even if it leads to awkward draws, being able to consistently fire it off early is the key to winning some matchups. And of course there are utility slots to consider: Sylvan Library, Liliana, additional Removal of some kind, etc.

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On a completely separate thought, Grixis actually seems like a perfectly valid Delver shell now: getting access to DRS, Delver, and YP (and Swiftspear/TNN if additional threats are warranted) seems good. Pretty much all the advantages of UR plus having DRS + discard and Black SB cards. Maybe even live the dream of Cabal Therapy + G. Probe + Y. Pyromancer?

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

btm10 and I were discussing this point specifically a day or so ago. It seems that if we transition from Hymn to Tourach to say Thoughtseize, we are able to Cruise faster. This change also gives the deck a little more flexibility in the early turns, especially on turn two following a turn one fetch into Deathrite. This would give a slightly more aggressive slant early while also allowing faster TC for reloading. We haven't tested the variations yet, but it is on our radar as something to look into.

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I was going to post this.

But its a little bit more than that. With 4 goyfs, 4 drs, and 3 TCs, people will bring in RIP. The randomness of Hymn may not be as advantageous than a thoughtseize were we could pluck away their gy hate.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I was going to post this.

But its a little bit more than that. With 4 goyfs, 4 drs, and 3 TCs, people will bring in RIP. The randomness of Hymn may not be as advantageous than a thoughtseize were we could pluck away their gy hate.

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4 Abrupt Decay main + 2 Krosan Grip in the SB makes Rest in Peace not a major issue unless the opponent has more counters than us. In that situation they will control everything but RiP and we'll have full graveyards and an empty board.

I think the real issue right now is whether devoting a 5th of the shell to proactive disruption works in this meta. Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize are both less effective than they were due to the recovery capability of a TC after heavy disruption. The original TA had 16 pieces of proactive disruption and 8 counters. The Stifles were disruption 13-16 and also functioned as pseudo-counters in the mid to late game.

You could make a good argument that we're below the threshold of disruption required to stay strong in the new meta. The character of our disruption has also been weakened.

So do we go back up to very heavy disruption to try to stay even or do we flow some in front of the meta and accept the fact that discard is just not as strong as it was?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

So do we go back up to very heavy disruption to try to stay even or do we flow some in front of the meta and accept the fact that discard is just not as strong as it was?

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I'll reiterate what I said before: it is still pretty unclear whether or not discard is any worse. Maybe stripping a Cruise from your opponent's hand is really powerful. Maybe discard is a mirror breaker in Cruise v Cruise matches because you have not just Cruise to create card advantage, but also Hymn.

The potential arguments go on and on, and I think we haven't really carefully worked through what is actually correct.

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Originally Posted by iostream

I'll reiterate what I said before: it is still pretty unclear whether or not discard is any worse. Maybe stripping a Cruise from your opponent's hand is really powerful. Maybe discard is a mirror breaker in Cruise v Cruise matches because you have not just Cruise to create card advantage, but also Hymn.

The potential arguments go on and on, and I think we haven't really carefully worked through what is actually correct.

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The UR Delver lists argue that discard is less effective at this point. Can't smack them down even with a good draw and not have them get right back up off the mat with a little luck. That possibility did not exist before TC. That it exists now is a big deal. They also play Gitaxian Probe as a 4-of, which gives them too much information for Hymn to have the shock and awe effect it used too.

Envelop is now going to go into a lot of sideboards to deal with TC. It was already in some SB's for S&T, Hymn, Glimpse of Nature, Terminus and Entreat mainly. The additional lists adding it is splash damage for both Hymn and Thoughtseize. The number of dangerous Sorcery's that must be responded too with a cheap hard counter has reached a critical mass in the meta.

I do agree that it's possible that Hymn hasn't been hit badly at this point but I don't know whether it is still a kill card early the way it was before. If it's not I'd rather have targeted discard than it, even if the discard cannot hit land.

In this meta if Hymn is not a killer I'd rather have a Counterspell than it because the Counterspell will stop the thing that is going to kill me otherwise most of the time.

OK, so going along with the idea that discard is going to become less advantageous, do we shift towards having more permission? Because if TC is going to be so big a deal as to nullify the advantages of discard, does that make permission, even soft permission like Spell Pierce, better? It seems like a lot of times, people are tapping out for TC, so anything from Force Spike to Mana Leak just wrecks those plays (I am kind of considering Spell Pierce again).

I do think we keep Liliana, as discarding can also fuel our own TC plays, but if other discard effects need to go, permission might be how we fight it.

Hey guys, I just found this site and finally have a place to try and get some advice on my BUG list. I've been under the impression for some time that nobody really discussed legacy anywhere regularly so I've been working at it on my own largely. Curious what you guys think of my current list, some changes I've made recently

-3 hymn +3 thoughtseize - mostly the same thought you guys have been discussing for the last couple pages, not sure if this is correct since I've won a lot of games by just T2 hymning someone out of the game and subsequent hymns are often too much to handle if they managed through the first.
-2 Dark Confidant/Tombstalker +2 TNN - I've been testing and RiP is really a back breaker, I can usually get through it eventually but by then it's given my opponent a lot of time to set up more powerful plays. Also while I like bob a lot I've been playing a lot more burn decks so I'd rather have TNN as a wall and generally un-disruptable clock. I also really like that in some matchups a T2 TNN is just good enough or buys me a huge amount of time.
+2 treasure cruise -2 ponder - not sure if this is right, I added some more land to make up for the lost ponder however
+2 spell pierce -2 flex slot - this is a test, so far I do like spell pierce but am unsure if it will make the MD. It's sort of bias towards my local meta with lots of burn players lately as well.

Here's the list, the sideboard will likely be tweaked a little but at this point I don't really want to let go of my hymns.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Cards for SB that I'm considering but don't know if they have a spot - Null Rod, Toxic Deluge, spell snare, life from the loam.

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Originally Posted by jb231

Hey guys, I just found this site and finally have a place to try and get some advice on my BUG list. I've been under the impression for some time that nobody really discussed legacy anywhere regularly so I've been working at it on my own largely. Curious what you guys think of my current list, some changes I've made recently.

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I like Thoughtseize, but I'd never, ever cut a Force before cutting a Daze. I'd also drop Envelop from the board for either Spell Pierce or Negate. Dimir Charm maindeck has been great for me.

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

btm10 and I were discussing this point specifically a day or so ago. It seems that if we transition from Hymn to Tourach to say Thoughtseize, we are able to Cruise faster. This change also gives the deck a little more flexibility in the early turns, especially on turn two following a turn one fetch into Deathrite. This would give a slightly more aggressive slant early while also allowing faster TC for reloading. We haven't tested the variations yet, but it is on our radar as something to look into.

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To expand on Sturtzilla's point about Thoughtseize vs. Hymn in in main - I didn't approach the idea from a standpoint of being more aggressive, but rather one of considering the effect of Treasure Cruise. As several people have pointed out, TC lets opponents draw out of the 2-for-1 and stabilize. Furthermore, Treasure Cruise favors a longer game where the tempo lines of DRS into Delver + Hymn or Delver into Hymn are less effective not only because of our opponents' Cruises but because we are also interested in casting Cruise. From this base (longer game, opponents more capable of offsetting card advantage), it makes sense to orient ourselves toward answering specific threats to our game plan rather than broad spectrum disruption designed to keep our opponents on the ropes until we can kill them. Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition operate on a plan of lining up your hand with our opponents. For instance, a hand of 2 lands, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, Daze, Brainstorm encourages turn one DRS into turn two Thoughtseize (taking removal) + Delver; on the other hand, an opening hand of 2 lands, Abrupt Decay, DRS, Ponder, Liliana, Thoughtseize would favor a slower line where you'd be inclined to use Thoughtseize on a threat and set up a more controlling/midrangey game based on developing advantage with Liliana. With Hymn instead of Thougthseize the second hand is likely a bad keep because you aren't pressuring your opponent's life total and are forced to fire Ponder off on turn 2 to find a threat, but the hand as it is simply allows you to grind your opponent out by taking the card in hand that hurts you the most, Decaying or Liliana'ing their remaining threat (which you probably know about because of Thoughtseize) and playing out a slow game.

In the above example, the second Thoughtseize hand also makes a larger number of Ponders keepable because you aren't squeezed into killing your opponent before they recover from Hymn. In the second example, a Treasure Cruise off of Ponder becomes pretty appealing, especially with turn 3 Liliana after a Thoughtseize to clear the way, whereas you'd be so hard pressed to hit a threat if your opener had Hymn in the Thoughtseize slot that a Ponder of DRS, Fetch, Cruise is probably not keepable, whereas the Thoughtseize hand is happy to draw the fetch from Ponder, draw Cruise for its next turn, and +1 Liliana, shuffle away DRS, and either use Decay and Cruise next turn or simply to Cruise to a fresh 3 if nothing merits Decay.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I am wondering if a maindeck (or two) Toxic Deluge would be good in the format now. Given that Elves and Young Pyromancer may be increasingly common threats, perhaps Liliana isn't quite the bomb she used to be. I'd still probably want at least 1 copy, but she (and Hymn) seems a bit worse if people are running TCruise. Deluge seems to be a great way to come back from an opponent deploying multiple threats post-Cruise. In a format that moves towards high velocity, Abrupt Decay becomes a bit worse so having a sweeper to make up the difference is pretty important. I certainly loved Deluge when I was running it as a singleton before TCruise was spoiled.

I don't think the deck can really support it with Thoughtseize + Deluge, but here's another thought on the Goyf issue: Bitterblossom? It's a 2cmc evasive threat that seems better equipped to deal with UWr Miracles than most, doesn't rely on the graveyard, and the lifeloss can be mitigated with DRS or binning it with your own ADecay if it really comes down to it. 2 Jitte in the SB would also be pretty great along with this card. Obviously the drawbacks include the lifeloss, making opposing Goyfs monstrous, being pretty slow, susceptible to Spell Pierce, and not immediately providing an onboard threat/blocker. But it's something I've considered playing before to specifically deal with UWR Miracles

Ultimately we are cramped for space and need to figure out what the options really are.

Starting with the following as a given:
19 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Decay
3 TCruise

That leaves 10 cards. Likely 4 slots goes to Goyf, but there are arguments for alternative threats. The 20th Land becomes almost necessary if we decide to play some 3CMC cards and/or Hymn. We want some form of additional disruption, whether it be Hymn, TSeize/IoK, Stifle, Spell Pierce, or whatever. There are arguments going towards running the full playset of TCruise, as even if it leads to awkward draws, being able to consistently fire it off early is the key to winning some matchups. And of course there are utility slots to consider: Sylvan Library, Liliana, additional Removal of some kind, etc.

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On a completely separate thought, Grixis actually seems like a perfectly valid Delver shell now: getting access to DRS, Delver, and YP (and Swiftspear/TNN if additional threats are warranted) seems good. Pretty much all the advantages of UR plus having DRS + discard and Black SB cards. Maybe even live the dream of Cabal Therapy + G. Probe + Y. Pyromancer?

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I agree with the thought here, but I'm not sure about the details. The more controlling shells are probably happier with Deluge than this deck is because they're happier casting a 3 mana spell that isn't a threat in its own right (which Liliana is against a lot of decks). I definitely agree that Thoughtseize + Deluge is probably wrong and that Thoughtseize + Deluge + Bitterblossom is unsupportable unless we also run Wandering Stream, which is terrible. That being said, Bitterblossom might be worth testing as a sideboard option, but I feel like it's at its best against Miracles and very slow against everything else, whereas Creeping Tar Pit is great against a number of decks and helps out with expensive sideboard cards like Jace and Zur's Wierding.

Finally, I'm not sure if 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Cruise is the right configuration, especially without Sylvan Library - Sylvan is really more of a "core" card than are Ponders 3-4, IMO. Then again, I've already dropped a Daze because I almost never want to draw it after turn 2 and it's really only good in a comparatively small number of opening hands, so perhaps I'm an outlier in this regard.

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Originally Posted by btm10

To expand on Sturtzilla's point about Thoughtseize vs. Hymn in in main - I didn't approach the idea from a standpoint of being more aggressive, but rather one of considering the effect of Treasure Cruise. As several people have pointed out, TC lets opponents draw out of the 2-for-1 and stabilize. Furthermore, Treasure Cruise favors a longer game where the tempo lines of DRS into Delver + Hymn or Delver into Hymn are less effective not only because of our opponents' Cruises but because we are also interested in casting Cruise. From this base (longer game, opponents more capable of offsetting card advantage), it makes sense to orient ourselves toward answering specific threats to our game plan rather than broad spectrum disruption designed to keep our opponents on the ropes until we can kill them. Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition operate on a plan of lining up your hand with our opponents. For instance, a hand of 2 lands, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, Daze, Brainstorm encourages turn one DRS into turn two Thoughtseize (taking removal) + Delver; on the other hand, an opening hand of 2 lands, Abrupt Decay, DRS, Ponder, Liliana, Thoughtseize would favor a slower line where you'd be inclined to use Thoughtseize on a threat and set up a more controlling/midrangey game based on developing advantage with Liliana. With Hymn instead of Thougthseize the second hand is likely a bad keep because you aren't pressuring your opponent's life total and are forced to fire Ponder off on turn 2 to find a threat, but the hand as it is simply allows you to grind your opponent out by taking the card in hand that hurts you the most, Decaying or Liliana'ing their remaining threat (which you probably know about because of Thoughtseize) and playing out a slow game.

In the above example, the second Thoughtseize hand also makes a larger number of Ponders keepable because you aren't squeezed into killing your opponent before they recover from Hymn. In the second example, a Treasure Cruise off of Ponder becomes pretty appealing, especially with turn 3 Liliana after a Thoughtseize to clear the way, whereas you'd be so hard pressed to hit a threat if your opener had Hymn in the Thoughtseize slot that a Ponder of DRS, Fetch, Cruise is probably not keepable, whereas the Thoughtseize hand is happy to draw the fetch from Ponder, draw Cruise for its next turn, and +1 Liliana, shuffle away DRS, and either use Decay and Cruise next turn or simply to Cruise to a fresh 3 if nothing merits Decay.

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Great post - this is exactly the kind of general theory discussion I think we should be having. A few comments about the discussion of Hand #2:

Maybe I'm bad at playing this deck, but [2 lands, Abrupt Decay, DRS, Ponder, Liliana, Hymn] is a hand I would keep against an unknown opponent. You don't have a very efficient way of pressuring life totals, but you do have DRS, which can probably ping for 2 while you wait into draw into gas. This is not very powerful, but you are so well set up to play the long game that you can afford to be patient - i.e. even if your opponent has like 3 solid creatures in hand turn 2, Hymn will probably get at least one, and depending on what's left behind, you have Decay/Lili to clean up. Perhaps you'll be a card short of cleaning up, but maybe not - if the opponent's hand is that loaded, then TS is probably even worse since in addition to not being able to deal with what's coming, you don't have any probability at all of getting lucky with a meaningful 2-for-1, and on top of that you're making an actively tempo-negative play. I think regardless of whether you have Hymn or TS in that hand, if turn 2 Ponder shows a Cruise and 2 other random cards, I think I'm keeping it and setting up Cruise. But more generally, I think it's easy to cook up hands where either TS or Hymn is better. [3 lands, Delver, Ponder, Liliana, Hymn or TS] on the play clearly wants TS to protect the 1 threat in hand. [2 lands, Wasteland, DRS, Brainstorm, Liliana, Hymn or TS] clearly wants Hymn to set up the soft-lock. It's not really sufficient to look at it on an example-by-example level.

After testing more, I think I have a better idea of how to answer this question, although I emphasize that I am still quite uncertain and actively am soliciting people who disagree with me to explain why I am wrong. Here are three general thoughts:

1) The pre-TC theory question of whether TS or Hymn is better in general was argued ad nauseam last spring after Drew Levin wrote that article about it, and I think the results since then pretty strongly suggest that Hymn was in general stronger (pre-TC) for various reasons. Recall that the general argument (which seems to have been borne out by experience) is that if (pre-TC) BUG has any sort of on-board presence, it is favored in topdeck wars because we have few lands, cheap answers, better and more mana-efficient threats than almost any other deck, and a lot of cantrips to filter our topdecks into the correct thing. That is, if your opponent is out of cards and on the back foot while Delver is knocking, it is hard to imagine BUG losing. Thus, breaking up resilient strategies and getting your opponent hellbent is good because we are awesome at playing the attrition game, and that's what Hymn is best at enabling in general.

2) The question at hand now is whether or not Treasure Cruise specifically changes argument (1). I'm inclined from my testing to argue that it doesn't - BUG is still not closing the game out fast. You're still not actually trying to depolarize your opponent's hand and force through a bunch of damage like Drew Levin was arguing - you're still playing the attrition game (which, by the way, TC seems to slot perfectly into). It is true that TC can dig your opponent out of a tight spot, but whenever a TC from either player hits the stack, it's going to be something both players have to fight over, and stripping their hand of cards before TC hits is generically good at helping you win those counterspell wars, especially because they usually involve Force of Will, which is by itself another 2-for-1 for you. i.e. It is hard for your opponents to have so many cards that they can fight through Hymn, deal with your board, and then on top of that effectively fight over Cruise by turn 4. For example, there have been games in testing where my opponent simply didn't have a random blue card to pitch to force because of Hymn.

3) However, as I mentioned, TC itself is terrific at enabling the attrition game. If we resolve it, we can run out multiple cheap threats which demand that the opponent play out their (usually more expensive) answers, which is almost as good as stripping the opponent's hand. It could be the case then that *in general* we can get away with running fewer discards - most non-Stifle builds played either 4 Hymn or a 3/2 Hymn/TS split to enable the attrition game pre-TC. Perhaps 4 TC + 2 Hymn or 3 TC + 3 Hymn is the correct package now. But in the context of arguments (1) and (2), I think the discards we do run should still be Hymn to Tourach.

Here are the two lists I've been testing. I've actually come to the conclusion that right now, FOUR Treasure Cruise is the right call.

19 lands (2 Trop, 1 Bayou)
1 Liliana otV
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Decay
4 TSeize
4 TCruise

OR

18 Lands
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (or a 3/3 split might be okay too)
0 Liliana main deck
Rest the same as above

Running Hymn to Tourach is still a completely valid choice, but I wouldn't feel as comfortable playing it with only 18 or 19 lands. I actually like having all the cheap discard as both proactive disruption and fuel for early/multiple TCruise. I think Discard in general gets weaker in the format with TCruise, but if you get to *choose* what you nab, it seems a little better than randomly discarding 2 from a heavy grip.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

4 Ponder
4 TSeize

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Would you consider some number of Git Probes instead?

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Would you consider some number of Git Probes instead?

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No. Probe does nothing for this deck really. In UR it pumps Swiftspear and Pyromancer, so it actually has utility beyond just cycling to fuel Cruise. With BUG I think we want to play *actual* spells, not a bunch of do-nothing interstitial fluff.

I don't get why anyone would cut any number of Ponder, that card is *busted* and strengthens the deck by a considerable amount. I see Delver lists playing less than 4 copies and it's just wrong. Heck, even most non-Delver blue decks should be playing all four (e.g. Miracles).

I'm about to play a Legacy FNM, so I'll report back on how the list with 4 Cruise does in the real world. But preliminary online testing makes me think that 4 is better than 3 when you're running Thoughtseize.

Played this tonight at the local shop:

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Silver Bullet

1 Ensnaring Bridge

Draw/Search

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

Counters

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare

Removal

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Repeal
2 Psionic Blast

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Creeping Tarpit

SB

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Envelop
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Surgical Extraction

The list did ok with a 2-0 win vs MBC, a 1-0 loss to Miracles and 2-0 win vs Burn.

The wins against MBC were just the product of blue card advantage, selection and denial being better than anything mono-black can do. The 2 MD Spell Pierces and the Spell Snare were just brutal against him and after I brought in the Envelops the two lists weren't close. I knew the match was over game 2 when he opened up on the play with Swamp, pass. I was holding a Pierce, an Envelop, a Brainstorm and a Delver with 3 lands.

The loss to Miracles was long and ended with him ultimating Jace and then playing another one and bouncing the Goyf that was going to kill him the next turn.

I had a turn late game where I looked at 25 cards and could not find one of the Psionic Blasts to kill him at 4 life. The sequence started with me tapping 4 mana and delving 4 for DTT at the end of his turn and putting Treasure Cruise and a Ponder in my hand while I put 5 land on the bottom of the pile. I then drew and TC'd into another Treasure Cruise and a Ponder, delving 6 more in the process. I Pondered twice in a row, reshuffling both times and drawing before dropping a fetch and TCing again delving another 6 and leaving me with 4 untapped mana. I Brainstormed at the end of the sequence and cursed my luck. He was hellbent at that point and all I had to do was find one of the Psionic Blasts and he was toast.

The thing that got us so late in the action was his 6 Swords to Plowshares via 2 Snapcaster Mages and him having nothing to remove Ensnaring Bridge with. I made a real mistake late in the game when I countered an Entreat the Angels. Those suckers were never going to hit me but I was paranoid and it was Miracles so I let go of a precious Counterspell. That was the difference in the first Jace hitting the table.

Postboard he would have had Council's Judgement but I'd have had another Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Envelop, 2 Krosan Grip and an Echoing Truth to choose from.

The matchup against Burn was a walkover in my favor. He got me down to 12 life by the end of turn 2 in both games but once the denial came on board he was resolving only the spells I wanted him too and he couldn't get around the numerous counters. I had a flipped Delver pressuring him in game 1 and he finally surrendered and tried to bolt it and when I put it back in my hand with Repeal he was at 1 card in hand and I had 5, including a Counterspell and a Spell Snare and it was all over at that point. I played the Delver back out again in my second main and he couldn't touch it or me again until the game was over. He did get a really bad land run in the middle part of the game and that was a key factor. The ironic thing is that I had both Psionic Blasts in my opening hand in this game and one of them wound up being the kill spell. I shuffled the other one away early with Brainstorm and a fetch because I knew they were a mixed blessing in the matchup. I boarded both of them out for game 2.

Game two he dropped Goblin Guide Turn 1 and handed me a Tropical Island. Turn 2 the Guide showed us an Abrupt Decay after which he dropped an Eidolon, giving me a choice, easy choice, and I killed the Eidolon on my turn 2 and got hit by the Guide twice again before Repealing it his attack phase and then Counterspelling it when he tried to put it back down. He Fireblasted at that point which would have got me to 3 and I Forced that, since I had Trop, USea and 2 Islands in play and I knew PoP wouldn't kill me. I dropped a DRS on my turn and and then Hydroblasted his attempt to remove it with Searing Blaze. The DRS got me back up to 9 life by removing his Goblin Guide and the Eidolon and I just sailed in from there. He tried to force a draw in the game with a PoP with me at 4 and him at 2 and I Spell Snared it hoping I wouldn't have to Force an REB in the process since he had 1 card in hand after that and 3 is the magic number in that list.

I played a friend's Elves list 4 times before the competition started and he snuffed me 4 times in a row. Twice it was bad draws on my part but the other games were just Elves being Elves. I found Ensnaring Bridge twice in the games and each time he tutored up Reclamation Sage eventually and killed it. I was playing near hellbent at that point to keep the bridge working and that forced me to counter things that I didn't really want to counter to stay low on cards. Treasure Cruise is a terrible card against Elves. It does nothing to stop them from Glimpsing and going off and it takes 3 turns minimum to cast. We were just playing main lists all 4 games and what I was thinking all 4 games is that the TC I was holding was getting me killed in the process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Played this tonight at the local shop:

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Silver Bullet

1 Ensnaring Bridge

Draw/Search

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

Counters

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare

Removal

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Repeal
2 Psionic Blast

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Creeping Tarpit

SB

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Envelop
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Surgical Extraction

The list did ok with a 2-0 win vs MBC, a 1-0 loss to Miracles and 2-0 win vs Burn.

The wins against MBC were just the product of blue card advantage, selection and denial being better than anything mono-black can do. The 2 MD Spell Pierces and the Spell Snare were just brutal against him and after I brought in the Envelops the two lists weren't close. I knew the match was over game 2 when he opened up on the play with Swamp, pass. I was holding a Pierce, an Envelop, a Brainstorm and a Delver with 3 lands.

The loss to Miracles was long and ended with him ultimating Jace and then playing another one and bouncing the Goyf that was going to kill him the next turn.

I had a turn late game where I looked at 25 cards and could not find one of the Psionic Blasts to kill him at 4 life. The sequence started with me tapping 4 mana and delving 4 for DTT at the end of his turn and putting Treasure Cruise and a Ponder in my hand while I put 5 land on the bottom of the pile. I then drew and TC'd into another Treasure Cruise and a Ponder, delving 6 more in the process. I Pondered twice in a row, reshuffling both times and drawing before dropping a fetch and TCing again delving another 6 and leaving me with 4 untapped mana. I Brainstormed at the end of the sequence and cursed my luck. He was hellbent at that point and all I had to do was find one of the Psionic Blasts and he was toast.

The thing that got us so late in the action was his 6 Swords to Plowshares via 2 Snapcaster Mages and him having nothing to remove Ensnaring Bridge with. I made a real mistake late in the game when I countered an Entreat the Angels. Those suckers were never going to hit me but I was paranoid and it was Miracles so I let go of a precious Counterspell. That was the difference in the first Jace hitting the table.

Postboard he would have had Council's Judgement but I'd have had another Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Envelop, 2 Krosan Grip and an Echoing Truth to choose from.

The matchup against Burn was a walkover in my favor. He got me down to 12 life by the end of turn 2 in both games but once the denial came on board he was resolving only the spells I wanted him too and he couldn't get around the numerous counters. I had a flipped Delver pressuring him in game 1 and he finally surrendered and tried to bolt it and when I put it back in my hand with Repeal he was at 1 card in hand and I had 5, including a Counterspell and a Spell Snare and it was all over at that point. I played the Delver back out again in my second main and he couldn't touch it or me again until the game was over. He did get a really bad land run in the middle part of the game and that was a key factor. The ironic thing is that I had both Psionic Blasts in my opening hand in this game and one of them wound up being the kill spell. I shuffled the other one away early with Brainstorm and a fetch because I knew they were a mixed blessing in the matchup. I boarded both of them out for game 2.

Game two he dropped Goblin Guide Turn 1 and handed me a Tropical Island. Turn 2 the Guide showed us an Abrupt Decay after which he dropped an Eidolon, giving me a choice, easy choice, and I killed the Eidolon on my turn 2 and got hit by the Guide twice again before Repealing it his attack phase and then Counterspelling it when he tried to put it back down. He Fireblasted at that point which would have got me to 3 and I Forced that, since I had Trop, USea and 2 Islands in play and I knew PoP wouldn't kill me. I dropped a DRS on my turn and and then Hydroblasted his attempt to remove it with Searing Blaze. The DRS got me back up to 9 life by removing his Goblin Guide and the Eidolon and I just sailed in from there. He tried to force a draw in the game with a PoP with me at 4 and him at 2 and I Spell Snared it hoping I wouldn't have to Force an REB in the process since he had 1 card in hand after that and 3 is the magic number in that list.

I played a friend's Elves list 4 times before the competition started and he snuffed me 4 times in a row. Twice it was bad draws on my part but the other games were just Elves being Elves. I found Ensnaring Bridge twice in the games and each time he tutored up Reclamation Sage eventually and killed it. I was playing near hellbent at that point to keep the bridge working and that forced me to counter things that I didn't really want to counter to stay low on cards. Treasure Cruise is a terrible card against Elves. It does nothing to stop them from Glimpsing and going off and it takes 3 turns minimum to cast. We were just playing main lists all 4 games and what I was thinking all 4 games is that the TC I was holding was getting me killed in the process.

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The pre-board matchup against Elves is going to be rough no matter how the deck is built. Treasure Cruise isn't much worse than any other card you could realistically play maindeck. Postboard I've found the treasure cruises to be great when you are boarding in a ton of removal and sweepers - they really lock up the game and your graveyard is full of the aforementioned spells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GtF

The pre-board matchup against Elves is going to be rough no matter how the deck is built. Treasure Cruise isn't much worse than any other card you could realistically play maindeck. Postboard I've found the treasure cruises to be great when you are boarding in a ton of removal and sweepers - they really lock up the game and your graveyard is full of the aforementioned spells.

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The pre-board matches are really bad but the big problem is that they go off during their turn when many of the sweepers don't work very well. I was hoping that the counters would be more effective than discard and sorcery speed sweepers but they really weren't much better. They save like two creatures from every sweeper using their bounce combos and they already have two other creatures in hand waiting for Glimpse to go off or the board to be reset. It just felt like an uphill battle every time. Glimpse of Nature has to be countered. Natural Order has to be countered. Green Sun's Zenith has to be countered. Then you have the problem that by turn 3 they can often go off with none of the above. It's just an ugly match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The pre-board matches are really bad but the big problem is that they go off during their turn when many of the sweepers don't work very well. I was hoping that the counters would be more effective than discard and sorcery speed sweepers but they really weren't much better. They save like two creatures from every sweeper using their bounce combos and they already have two other creatures in hand waiting for Glimpse to go off or the board to be reset. It just felt like an uphill battle every time. Glimpse of Nature has to be countered. Natural Order has to be countered. Green Sun's Zenith has to be countered. Then you have the problem that by turn 3 they can often go off with none of the above. It's just an ugly match.

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Elves is always tough. When constructing my sideboard I often think about whether a certain card, if not dedicated for Elves, can be brought in with even a small positive impact on the MU. I generally side in anywhere between 11-13 cards when playing Team America. It's probably our worst matchup among tier decks. Worse than Miracles. If you haven't gotten much practice against the deck, you'd best do heavy playtesting against it and figure out a game plan that works for you. Or you could come to the dark side and play Miracles...:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Elves is always tough. When constructing my sideboard I often think about whether a certain card, if not dedicated for Elves, can be brought in with even a small positive impact on the MU. I generally side in anywhere between 11-13 cards when playing Team America. It's probably our worst matchup among tier decks. Worse than Miracles. If you haven't gotten much practice against the deck, you'd best do heavy playtesting against it and figure out a game plan that works for you. Or you could come to the dark side and play Miracles...:cool:

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I can't play Miracles. Spinning the top every turn in a control build would push me towards time in every match.

The list above has some control features to it but it doesn't do that unless the opponent is playing draw-go also and spinning the top every turn.

The cards I would have brought in against Elves if we'd sideboarded were 2 Grafdiggers Cages, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Marsh Casualties and 2 Envelop. He wasn't playing any lords that I saw and that forced me to play from a very bad position when I had bridge out so I would likely have tuned the first one out. The only thing it was blocking most of the time was a few 2 power elves. It was stopping him from going to get Craterhoof to finish me but instead he was getting the Reclamation Sage and hitting me for 4 or 5 a turn when he had a tutor of some sort.

I'm thinking maybe 1 Toxic Deluge in the main, with a Psionic Blast going away. The list is controlling enough that having a singleton sweeper to go find doesn't seem bad. I'm also thinking maybe 1 Pernicious Deed instead of the Ensnaring Bridge main. The problem is that the thing that makes the list work well right now is that it has a BUG Delver threat base, cantrips and land count but a BUG Control answer set. It's a hybrid that can play off of 3 mana pretty well and I'm not sure that adding deed to that does much more for me than bridge did. The deed is still dying to Reclamation Sage if he has a tutor in hand the turn I cast it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I can't play Miracles. Spinning the top every turn in a control build would push me towards time in every match.

The list above has some control features to it but it doesn't do that unless the opponent is playing draw-go also and spinning the top every turn.

The cards I would have brought in against Elves if we'd sideboarded were 2 Grafdiggers Cages, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Marsh Casualties and 2 Envelop. He wasn't playing any lords that I saw and that forced me to play from a very bad position when I had bridge out so I would likely have tuned the first one out. The only thing it was blocking most of the time was a few 2 power elves. It was stopping him from going to get Craterhoof to finish me but instead he was getting the Reclamation Sage and hitting me for 4 or 5 a turn when he had a tutor of some sort.

I'm thinking maybe 1 Toxic Deluge in the main, with a Psionic Blast going away. The list is controlling enough that having a singleton sweeper to go find doesn't seem bad. I'm also thinking maybe 1 Pernicious Deed instead of the Ensnaring Bridge main. The problem is that the thing that makes the list work well right now is that it has a BUG Delver threat base, cantrips and land count but a BUG Control answer set. It's a hybrid that can play off of 3 mana pretty well and I'm not sure that adding deed to that does much more for me than bridge did. The deed is still dying to Reclamation Sage if he has a tutor in hand the turn I cast it.

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Heh? I assumed you tested boarded games too. Testing only the main deck against elves is going to give you skewed results. It's the sideboarded games that especially matter in this MU so I would focus on that if you want to figure out the Elves matchup. BUG Delver, unless you are playing something extremely divergent from stock lists, is going to lose the vast majority of Game One to Elves. The only time you beat Elves game one is if you get a good turn one Delver start or they're bricking real hard.

Also, I don't want to discourage you from testing different ideas and posting about them on here, but I think the direction you're trying to take the deck doesn't match up well with Team America's strategy, which is to be a tapout tempo deck game one and then have the ability to become a more rock-style deck games two and three. I think you'd be better off testing something more grindy like some sort of BUG Midrange or Control deck. In another words something that doesn't play Delver. Just my two cents.

Regarding my FNM experience:

1. Four Treasure Cruise is correct. You aren't guaranteed to see multiple or even ANY copies, so maxing out on the card improves the chances of seeing it. You can drop a copy or two in SB games if you suspect Rest in Peace.
2. I am not so sure that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn. Not every opponent is going to be playing a deck that's soft to the effect, and you'd still rather have Hymn against most non-Blue decks. I think we can probably get away with running 19 lands, but maybe 20 lands + 3 Hymn is the way to go. Seize did fine, but I think I'm going to go back to Hymn for the time being. Maybe stay with 19 lands but drop the 4th Wasteland.
3. 1 Liliana is okay with 4 TCruise to find the lone copy. Plus, as a 3-drop in a 19-land deck it's not something you want to see early most of the time.
4. I never had an issue with Tarmogoyf/DRS + Cruise. I was able to refill the graveyard shortly after each Cruise so they never really suffered much from the card. This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
5. Delver actually feels like the worst card in the deck. I am seriously considering dropping it for something else. We are playing a midrange deck (at least in comparison to other UR or RUG), and while a double Delver draw is nuts, I don't like how we don't have Burn to actually close out a game once you get the opponent in single digits. So I am considering dropping the tempo angle for something else...

This is one of the most popular decks in the format. I'm surprised there isn't a thread for it on here! All I see is stuff like "BUG Delver" and "UWR Delver"? What are these decks?

Here's a recent list that did well at the SCGNJ tournament:

Stephen Mann, 5th place, Sultai Delver
(http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109242)

Creatures [12]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [17]
1 Sultai Charm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [9]
2 Treasure Cruise
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [20]
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Dismember
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Snare
2 Submerge
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Regarding my FNM experience:

1. Four Treasure Cruise is correct. You aren't guaranteed to see multiple or even ANY copies, so maxing out on the card improves the chances of seeing it. You can drop a copy or two in SB games if you suspect Rest in Peace.
2. I am not so sure that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn. Not every opponent is going to be playing a deck that's soft to the effect, and you'd still rather have Hymn against most non-Blue decks. I think we can probably get away with running 19 lands, but maybe 20 lands + 3 Hymn is the way to go. Seize did fine, but I think I'm going to go back to Hymn for the time being. Maybe stay with 19 lands but drop the 4th Wasteland.
3. 1 Liliana is okay with 4 TCruise to find the lone copy. Plus, as a 3-drop in a 19-land deck it's not something you want to see early most of the time.
4. I never had an issue with Tarmogoyf/DRS + Cruise. I was able to refill the graveyard shortly after each Cruise so they never really suffered much from the card. This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
5. Delver actually feels like the worst card in the deck. I am seriously considering dropping it for something else. We are playing a midrange deck (at least in comparison to other UR or RUG), and while a double Delver draw is nuts, I don't like how we don't have Burn to actually close out a game once you get the opponent in single digits. So I am considering dropping the tempo angle for something else...

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Very interesting idea with cutting the Delvers. A local has been playing BUG Delver with Stifle and Hymn fairly successfully. It seems awful since you're stranding cards in hand with Stifle and then Hymning them, but turns out they're both just very disruptive and good on their own. So running with both ideas, here's a list I did some testing with against lordofthepit playing Shardless BUG:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit

After the games it was very clear that you're right 4 Cruise is right. The deck was surprisingly good, and I feel like I got a bit unlucky in some preboard games in not drawing my cantrips or creatures or removal. Strix is insanely good against this deck, but Deluge out of the board was a great answer, maybe it should be main, and maybe there should be multiple. In one game I got to cast Cruise 3 times, and had threshold again a turn later. Stifle was insane on the play, and decent on the draw against Shardless. I might continue testing a list like this. I'm not convinced by Gitaxian Probe, probably it should be a Disfigure and a Cruise. Another land is reasonable too.

I was very skeptical with the 4 TC's but i ran a gauntlet and damn 4 is the right number

I was never unhappy to see it.

However, we do need to address the issue with how to deal with opposing TC's since we use all of our gy to draw, which makes depend on their gy for our goyfs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Also, I don't want to discourage you from testing different ideas and posting about them on here, but I think the direction you're trying to take the deck doesn't match up well with Team America's strategy, which is to be a tapout tempo deck game one and then have the ability to become a more rock-style deck games two and three. I think you'd be better off testing something more grindy like some sort of BUG Midrange or Control deck. In another words something that doesn't play Delver. Just my two cents.

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Right now the 3 best creatures in the meta are Delver, DRS and Goyf. Having them in a BUG shell that will always have 1 or 2 mana open after turn 1 and will sit on 2 mana until the mid-game is pretty powerful.

My argument for going with counters instead of discard is that the way the meta seems to be stacking up the discard is beginning to look pretty frail after the first couple of turns. You can't use it on their turn when they're casting things designed to gut you like a trout and these days that includes refilling their hand, which it didn't used too.

Look at my build as a half-tapout build that taps out half it's mana every turn to play timely removal and cheap under-costed threats and then holds half it's mana for the opponent's turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Right now the 3 best creatures in the meta are Delver, DRS and Goyf. Having them in a BUG shell that will always have 1 or 2 mana open after turn 1 and will sit on 2 mana until the mid-game is pretty powerful.

My argument for going with counters instead of discard is that the way the meta seems to be stacking up the discard is beginning to look pretty frail after the first couple of turns. You can't use it on their turn when they're casting things designed to gut you like a trout and these days that includes refilling their hand, which it didn't used too.

Look at my build as a half-tapout build that taps out half it's mana every turn to play timely removal and cheap under-costed threats and then holds half it's mana for the opponent's turn.

---

He's probably not talking about the Counterspells (which are pretty mediocre) but the really bad cards like Repeal, Psionic Blast and Ensaring Bridge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

Very interesting idea with cutting the Delvers. A local has been playing BUG Delver with Stifle and Hymn fairly successfully. It seems awful since you're stranding cards in hand with Stifle and then Hymning them, but turns out they're both just very disruptive and good on their own. So running with both ideas, here's a list I did some testing with against lordofthepit playing Shardless BUG:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit

After the games it was very clear that you're right 4 Cruise is right. The deck was surprisingly good, and I feel like I got a bit unlucky in some preboard games in not drawing my cantrips or creatures or removal. Strix is insanely good against this deck, but Deluge out of the board was a great answer, maybe it should be main, and maybe there should be multiple. In one game I got to cast Cruise 3 times, and had threshold again a turn later. Stifle was insane on the play, and decent on the draw against Shardless. I might continue testing a list like this. I'm not convinced by Gitaxian Probe, probably it should be a Disfigure and a Cruise. Another land is reasonable too.

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How did you feel with the threat count in this deck? Seems rather light but I'm assuming Treasure Cruise makes that less of an issue than it'd otherwise would be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CorpT

He's probably not talking about the Counterspells (which are pretty mediocre) but the really bad cards like Repeal, Psionic Blast and Ensaring Bridge.

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Repeal really isn't bad in this list. It's big card advantage against the people trying to remove our threats. I drew 5 cards on Friday night and saved 4 creatures in the process in 5 games. Repeal invalidated Smallpox (hard), Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning Bolt x2.

If you see it as a way to return the opponent's creatures and things then it's a mediocre card even though it replaces itself in the process but it usually gets played to put your own thing back in hand very cheaply and it causes really annoying card advantage swings for the opponent who thinks he has things counted out when he doesn't.

I saved 2 Delvers and 2 DRS and got to play all of them back out in addition to drawing another card.

If you're not trying to save a 1cc or 2cc creature then you lose so much tempo putting it back into your hand that it's probably not worth the play. A flipped Delver comes back for :u: and draws a card and then it lands on the board as a Delver of Secrets the same turn, since your opponent will wait for Delver to flip to kill it most of the time and take it out during the attack phase.

If you think Counterspells are mediocre in this meta you haven't had anybody Dig Through Time on you yet. Just wait, you'll get there.

On the topic of trying to preempt opposing treasure cruises, I really have to chime in on the notion that dimir charm's stock has risen in the current metagame.

Prior to the printing of treasure cruise I ran a miser's copy and was always very impressed with it. The number of powerful sorceries and creatures that it deals with has already been pointed to in recent posts. Now, however, it is likely indeed that we are going to be staring down opposing treasure cruises as well. The charm costs 2, granted, and you will sometimes find yourself in situations where you simply can't justify holding up the mana for hopes of countering a cruise instead of progressing your board, but the charm is significantly more flexible than envelop, particularly because it kills many creatures that are run side-by-side treasure cruise, namely: deathrites, swiftspear (on your own turn, at least, since even a reactive spell only puts its power to 2), unflipped delvers, young pyromancers, and stoneforge mystics if and when UWR delver adopts the cruise.

Further still, the often despised 3rd mode actually gains marginal utility via performing a reasonable thought scour impression. I imagine this to be a weak argument in its own right, and it will not be a mode you want to jam just in the interest of being cute or being unnecessarily aggressive in hoping to maximize your cruises, but it will no doubt come up more often than it used to. It used to be viable just when you were desperate and needed to dig into a relevant topdeck, or if an opponent main-phased a sensei's top (which means, almost always, that they are trying to stick a JTMS) and you wanted to screw their draw.

The only qualm I have with dimir charm is that it does not hit dig through time, although envelop doesn't either, and I suspect - at least until dig through time lists get more of the limelight - that treasure cruise is bound to be the more ubiquitous of the two delve spells.

Dig Through Time is the most powerful spell I've seen since Ancestral Recall. It's not quite the same power level because it only gets you +1 card and it relies on delve but when you can actually cast it it's better than AR. 2 out of the next 7 and garbage on the bottom is just a killer effect on the opponent's end phase. I had Miracles go hellbent against me because he thought DTT was going to kill him. I countered the Force and was staring at 4 cards in hand to zero for him the next turn. I looked at 25 cards between the DTT at end of turn and the end of my first main phase.

That's just ridiculous dig. Didn't find the win but that's just luck. I had somewhere between 30 and 35 cards in my library when I began the run and missed on the two win-cons despite looking at 25 overall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Repeal really isn't bad in this list. It's big card advantage against the people trying to remove our threats. I drew 5 cards on Friday night and saved 4 creatures in the process in 5 games. Repeal invalidated Smallpox (hard), Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning Bolt x2.

If you see it as a way to return the opponent's creatures and things then it's a mediocre card even though it replaces itself in the process but it usually gets played to put your own thing back in hand very cheaply and it causes really annoying card advantage swings for the opponent who thinks he has things counted out when he doesn't.

I saved 2 Delvers and 2 DRS and got to play all of them back out in addition to drawing another card.

If you're not trying to save a 1cc or 2cc creature then you lose so much tempo putting it back into your hand that it's probably not worth the play. A flipped Delver comes back for :u: and draws a card and then it lands on the board as a Delver of Secrets the same turn, since your opponent will wait for Delver to flip to kill it most of the time and take it out during the attack phase.

If you think Counterspells are mediocre in this meta you haven't had anybody Dig Through Time on you yet. Just wait, you'll get there.

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In every circumstance where you used Repeal, a counter of some sort would've been superior, especially against Smallpox. You were card neutral in the other cases, but even "losing a card" by countering the removal spells is better than running something narrow like Repeal because a counter (in this case, I'm primarily thinking of Spell Pierce and Daze) is more flexible. As for Counterspell, leaving UU up on your opponent's turn is a big cost because the deck isn't configured around casting spells for UU. If you want a 2 mana (mostly) hard counter, Negate and Mana Leak are better because they allow you to counter off of U.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carnifex

On the topic of trying to preempt opposing treasure cruises, I really have to chime in on the notion that dimir charm's stock has risen in the current metagame.

Prior to the printing of treasure cruise I ran a miser's copy and was always very impressed with it. The number of powerful sorceries and creatures that it deals with has already been pointed to in recent posts. Now, however, it is likely indeed that we are going to be staring down opposing treasure cruises as well. The charm costs 2, granted, and you will sometimes find yourself in situations where you simply can't justify holding up the mana for hopes of countering a cruise instead of progressing your board, but the charm is significantly more flexible than envelop, particularly because it kills many creatures that are run side-by-side treasure cruise, namely: deathrites, swiftspear (on your own turn, at least, since even a reactive spell only puts its power to 2), unflipped delvers, young pyromancers, and stoneforge mystics if and when UWR delver adopts the cruise.

Further still, the often despised 3rd mode actually gains marginal utility via performing a reasonable thought scour impression. I imagine this to be a weak argument in its own right, and it will not be a mode you want to jam just in the interest of being cute or being unnecessarily aggressive in hoping to maximize your cruises, but it will no doubt come up more often than it used to. It used to be viable just when you were desperate and needed to dig into a relevant topdeck, or if an opponent main-phased a sensei's top (which means, almost always, that they are trying to stick a JTMS) and you wanted to screw their draw.

The only qualm I have with dimir charm is that it does not hit dig through time, although envelop doesn't either, and I suspect - at least until dig through time lists get more of the limelight - that treasure cruise is bound to be the more ubiquitous of the two delve spells.

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The miser's Dimir Charm is one of my favorite cards to draw. I can't think of a time where I had it and wished it was something else. The fact that we just got a juicy new target for it makes it that much better. I got to use the third mode twice in testing yesterday - once to clear two lands that I had Brainstormed back (and incidentally turn on Treasure Cruise for U) at my opponent's EOT, and once to snag a Top (and to my surprise, an Entreat) my Miracles opponent had flipped.

As for Delver being the weakest card - I like the Delver-less lists aside from the fact that it's a slower deck that continues to run Daze. I think that without Delver you lose the only reason for running a card that is straight garbage after turn 4 in almost all games that aren't about killing quickly with Delver.

On a more constructive note, I've done a few games of two-fisted testing with the Delver-less list wcm8 posted, but -4 Daze, -1 Ponder, +2 Snacaster Mage, +1 Dimir Charm, +1 Pierce, +1 Land. I'm thinking about Mana Leak over Pierce since this makes the deck even less about tempo, but Snapcaster has been amazing.

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Originally Posted by btm10

In every circumstance where you used Repeal, a counter of some sort would've been superior, especially against Smallpox. You were card neutral in the other cases, but even "losing a card" by countering the removal spells is better than running something narrow like Repeal because a counter (in this case, I'm primarily thinking of Spell Pierce and Daze) is more flexible. As for Counterspell, leaving UU up on your opponent's turn is a big cost because the deck isn't configured around casting spells for UU. If you want a 2 mana (mostly) hard counter, Negate and Mana Leak are better because they allow you to counter off of U.

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I wrote a long reply to this listing specific examples of where Repeal was superior to most Legacy counter spells and then I realized that until you actually played the card you wouldn't really understand what it does. Delver of Secrets and Deathrite Shaman are two of the strongest cards in Legacy right now. The ability to save them and replay them and not give up a card in the process is really strong in most matchups. They're nightmare cards for the opponent. They cost next to nothing to cast and have an out-sized effect on play once they're active. Think about it.

The most-played removal spells in Legacy all require counter backup to resolve successfully if you have a Repeal in hand. That includes Abrupt Decay.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I wrote a long reply to this listing specific examples of where Repeal was superior to most Legacy counter spells and then I realized that until you actually played the card you wouldn't really understand what it does.

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People don't need to play Repeal, Ensnaring Bridge and Psionic Blast to know they're bad cards and have no place in competitive BUG Delver lists. We can read the cards.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The ability to save them and replay them and not give up a card in the process is really strong in most matchups. They're nightmare cards for the opponent. They cost next to nothing to cast and have an out-sized effect on play once they're active. Think about it.

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I dunno, when I get my Delver or DRS Jace-bounced, I'm pretty upset even though I haven't lost a card per se. Both Delver and DRS need a turn to set up. You are losing a lot of tempo when they get bounced. Bouncing my own guy just to blank Abrupt Decay (since that's the only card that can't be addressed by regular counterspells) sounds unbelievably weak.

STP aside, I'd rather play Golgari Charm for the regeneration mode to 'counter' removal. That way you also have a sweeper for the somewhat ubiquitous X/1 threats in the format. Repeal is actually a pretty decent card and I've played it to good effect in Modern, but it's not something I'd really consider for a BUG Tempo list. I'll grant that there are some scenarios where it's great, but it can also be dead quite often.

Psionic Blast is interesting since I do think the lack of Burn is a reason why BUG never feels quite as 'tempo-y' as its Bolt-slinging cousins, but I don't know if 3cmc makes the cut here. It's something I *would* actually consider testing. Intriguing.

Dimir Charm: Great discussion on this one. The poster who brought this up was absolutely correct about it being useful in a format with lots of small creatures + Treasure Cruise (and is also a fair beating against Miracles and miscellaneous combo decks.) Maybe this could work as a 2-of.

Lots of cards to think about. Coming to a 'perfect' list is pretty much impossible, and there is value in running singletons of a lot of the cards being discussed. I think we *should* maintain the internal consistency of BUG and run 4 copies of the most important cards, but there is some wiggle room to allow for alternatives.

Also wanted to mention, Delver is a necessity for BUG Tempo with Daze. If you drop it, you are obviously going to move into a more midrange/control direction, which is a discussion for another thread.

edit: Dimir Charm is great. Maybe this is the card that takes the Hymn/TSeize slot??

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Originally Posted by iostream

I dunno, when I get my Delver or DRS Jace-bounced, I'm pretty upset even though I haven't lost a card per se. Both Delver and DRS need a turn to set up. You are losing a lot of tempo when they get bounced. Bouncing my own guy just to blank Abrupt Decay (since that's the only card that can't be addressed by regular counterspells) sounds unbelievably weak.

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I'm usually pretty happy when my Delver or DRS gets bounced by Jace. There are many worse things that he can be doing to you and if he keeps bouncing eventually things break down. That said, there's a difference between having an opposing permanent bounce your delver and doing it yourself in response to removal or to be able to block and also keep it and get another card in the process.

The gist of the argument is that there are very few things that BUG Delver can be doing after turn 3 or so that are better than playing a Delver or DRS. Preserving the ability to do that without incurring card disadvantage, and in fact causing the opponent to have card disadvantage is pretty powerful overall.

I'm already playing 9 counters. It's not like Repeal is worse than counters 10 and 11 because really it's not. Would it be worse than counter 8 and 9? You could make that argument and I wouldn't feel pressed to try to refute it. Would Repeal be worse than Abrupt Decay 3 and 4? Most definitely.

The question I still haven't completely answered to my satisfaction at this point is whether the 2 main list Spell Pierces are better than 2 Dazes. I believe they are because half the time I'm on the draw game 1 and the Dazes definitely are weaker on the the draw. There are times when I am sitting on a Delver and a Spell Pierce in my opening grip on the play when I really wish I had a Daze instead. I sit on a blue source in that situation and wait until turn 2 to play the Delver. It's better than losing the Delver to a 1-on-1 trade.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

STP aside, I'd rather play Golgari Charm for the regeneration mode to 'counter' removal. That way you also have a sweeper for the somewhat ubiquitous X/1 threats in the format. Repeal is actually a pretty decent card and I've played it to good effect in Modern, but it's not something I'd really consider for a BUG Tempo list. I'll grant that there are some scenarios where it's great, but it can also be dead quite often.

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I believe that other than Counterspell, Ponder and Brainstorm there is no card in the list that is dead less often than Repeal. That's because it cantrips in addition to doing something that is tempo-y at worst and quite effective at times.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Psionic Blast is interesting since I do think the lack of Burn is a reason why BUG never feels quite as 'tempo-y' as its Bolt-slinging cousins, but I don't know if 3cmc makes the cut here. It's something I *would* actually consider testing. Intriguing.

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I'm going to take this to 1 in the main and leave it there. I don't ever want to have 2 of these in the opening hand although I'm perfectly willing to carry 1 until the bitter end if I have too. The reach is good to have. There are so many games where BUG gets the opponent down low and has trouble finishing.

I'm probably going Golgari Charm as the replacement although I am also considering a main list Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

edit: Dimir Charm is great. Maybe this is the card that takes the Hymn/TSeize slot??

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Maybe a 2/2 split, but I can hardly imagine running 3-4 Charm.

I cannot really understand why there is no earnest discussion in any of the Delver threads on Dig through Time versus Treasure Cruise. It seems as if everyone is saying: It worked for UR Delver and also Treasure Cruise only costs :u: so let's just take that one.

Modern style UR Delver is a 17 land deck, plays more cantrips like Gitaxian Probe and thus draws way more threats compared to Team America. As it has less land and more threats Treasure Cruise is a better card in that deck.
For Team America which plays 19-20 land and Deathrite Shaman and less cantrips I think the effect "look at the top 7 cards and choose 2" is a lot stronger than "draw 3 cards".
It ensures you draw 2 threats or Force of Will & blue card or whatever sideboard card you are looking for.

Now someone will point out: You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.
First: you can play this card in your opponents turn and that alone is very strong. It makes it so you can pay :2::u: or :3::u: without ending up tapped out.
Second: Once you are able to delve 4-6 cards in Team America you will surely have 2-3 lands 2 of which should be blue.

I think the two draw spells will push all decks into more midrangy fields if you cannot use the cards like UR Delver as burn.

ATM I play this:
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Bayou
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Ponder
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Notion Thief
1x Pithing Needle
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique

On another note: Could we shave a land for a fetchland?

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Originally Posted by hofzge

Now someone will point out: You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.

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You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.

More seriously, I don't expect to have UU more than like two thirds of the time around turn 3-4 against a Wasteland deck. Also 1 vs 2 is a big difference in playing around Daze. Those are independent of tapping out or not. And let's be real, Team America taps out most turns if things are going well.

Also nice double Bayou, triple double-blue spell manabase. Although to be fair, it's not realistic to play 4 Hymns and 2 Lili without the two Bayous.