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When your opponent plays a tendrills with storm 10 (so in total 11 tendrills on stack) when you are at 20 life you let 9 copy's of the tendrills resolve, thus losing 18 life. Then you sac children in response to the next tendrills thats on the stack, gaining 18 life, then you let the remaining 3 tendrills on the stack resolve, resulting in him gaining 22 life, and you losing 6 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammunition
With Enlightened Tutor, Wheel of Sun and Moon seems like a potentially good idea all of the sudden. But is it better than the hate we already have? Also, at WW, it is a bit hard on the mana supply.
Has anyone tried Runed Halo against Zoo? It feels uncomfortable with Pridemages running around. But we have so many must-kill artifacts and enchantments, that I think they will be overloaded at some point. Opinions?
I found that it was good, because it gives their pridemages another priority target. We already have equipment, vials and oblivion rings. The chances of us running out of must-kill enchantments and artifacts is lesser to that of them running out of pridemages. It's also handy against Pro-Bant and Re-animator assuming we manage to bait their counters. It also means that we don't have to worry about goyfs as much. It's a generally useful card in a lot of matchups, but I am worried it is kind of slow. I'll try to order the cards I need so I can use the list I posted earlier. I'll tell about how I did when this eventually happens.
It is also a good card vs. combo..
Runed halo @ tendrils, go.
Im curious as to why these builds run sword so plowshares over path to exile? I would think them gaining a land isnt as much of a drawback for this deck as the lifegain can be..
Ive been playing with this list (just online testing) and it has been serving me pretty well:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
17 [IA] Plains (2)
4 [CHP] Mutavault
// Creatures
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
1 [ZEN] Kor Duelist
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
2 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
4 [CNF] Path to Exile
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [VI] Retribution of the Meek
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
any thoughts from more seasoned players?
Thought #1 on that list is that you should probably be playing Mishra's Factory over mutavault.
Thought #2 is that you're making a basic deckbuilding mistake-- you're spreading out a LOT of 2- and 3-ofs. You want to keep your best cards at 4s, to improve both consistancy and quality. The use of tutor targets like Figure and Duelist is fine, but you probably want 4 Mother of Runes. The card's broken. Just be careful about cutting numbers like that.
Additionally, Aven Mindcensor is cute, and I really like it, but it's probably the weakest card in the list... You'll probably want to cut it.
Mana:
12 [RAV] Plains (3)
Utility lands:
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
Main combo:
3 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [DS] AEther Vial
Beatsticks:
2 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
Anti-Aggro:
3 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
Mystic toolbox:
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
Removal:
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard:
Anti-Combo:
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [ON] True Believer
General gravehate:
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
Artifact hate:
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
Reanimator, zoo,
SB: 3 [VI] Retribution of the Meek/Meekstone
I decided to split my list into sections, depending on the cards purpose. The list is 62 cards, so I have to cut something out, but I'm unsure what. I also need to cut something out for a 4th Flickerwisp for additional trickery. I'm running my original SB, since I do not have any Enchanted Tutors to work with IRL. I'm still iffy on the SB, but it looks a bit better now. I've got a horrible matchup against dredge and belcher, but if they do not go off turn 1, I have a chance. Does anyone else have any opinions?
Cutting out Mangara might be one possibility, but removing what used to be the focus of the dck doesn't seem nice.
Nice is not important. I will not be cutting Mangara because it wins games you otherwise have no business winning. Even with Blazing Archon and Iona at the same time, reanimator is still not safe. In fact I did this yesterday afternoon to the annoyance of my opponent. It catches FoW like a champ. Mangara is the card that gives inevitability to the rest of what is otherwise a deck that can't properly do aggro and has spotty control.
Agreed on midcensor, I ended up finding some Karakas for a reasonable price so -2 mincensor +2 mangara. and my manabase is nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Isei
4 wasteland
3 karakas
14 plains
I dont think Mother of runes needs to be a 4 of, she is amazing when paired with another creature, on her own, she is pretty lame unless on blocking duty. 3 feels about right to me...
Aagin, since noone really answered my question: why STP instead of Path to exile in these decks? I get the usefulness of being able to swords your own creature, but other than that the life gain for your opponent doesnt seem that appealing
I can tell you that I don't play Path to Exile because that card sucks.
It is probably not a good idea to allow the opponent to fetch nonbasics in a deck running lots of manadenial is probably a bad idea.
Has anyone tried borrowing other mono-white techniques from other decks?
Maybe try to shoehorn 4x Flagstones of Trokair and 2-3x Armageddon? We already have AEther Vial to help us drop creatures. And we could recycle our lands via Jotun Grunts. I mean D&T is a weenie deck right?
If not, what about Quinn's Snow engine? But obviously, the drawback with that is we have to run 22 snowlands and SDTops. It helps us draw more cards late game but it does remove the mana-denial aspect of the game.
Any more ideas?
I have been meaning to yoink the SB from UW Tempo, because it seems better than the current one I'm using. I just haven't gotten around to it. Flagstones+Armageddon might work, but I can't erally think of what to cut out. I like the deck more or less as it is.
Flagstones was used previously, but most lists dropped them along with Cataclysm. I still use them, but thats mostly because I run Cataclysms in the sideboard sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Done some major revisions to my list...
12 [IA] Plains (2)
3 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
// Creatures
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [EX] Cataclysm
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [WL] Serenity
Finks+Cataclysm seems like a good time when the situation comes up.... Are most people dropping Cataclysm due to the mana cost? It is still an amazing late game bomb
I ended up dropping it because I had no idea what else to cut instead. I've found that Goldmeadow HArrier is a good card in a lot of matchups, so I kept it instead. I also kept a 3rd Oblivion Ring, and the maindecked Runed Halos. I need to add a 3rd Mangara, but I have no idea what to cut out anymore.
Here's my list for reference:
// Lands
3 [LG] Karakas
12 [RAV] Plains (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [VI] Retribution of the Meek
SB: 3 [ON] True Believer
I'm very unhappy that I had to cut down to 3 Flickerwisps and 2 Mangaras to fit in some of the other cards. But I have found that this list works rather well. Cutting Ranger of Eos so I can fit in a 4th Flickerwisp and 3rd Mangara is a possibility.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
I would drop the Rangers of Eos. By the time you actually play him he hasnīt been too impressive for me. A lategame Mystic is a lot more useable. No matter what you do, you really should try to play Mangara #3 and Flickerwisp #4. I changed the Ranger of Eos for two Kitchenfinks because they basically play the same role. I will explain:
Size --> Both are 3/2
Card advantage --> Ranger gets you two Mothers/Harriers if still in deck; Kitchenfink replays itself
Cost--> Finks cc3 vs Eos cc4
Replay with Flickerwisp --> Eos finds rarely enough targets to do the trick twice; Kitchenfinks does the trick
Combat--> Finks are better to control the board by blocking dead and applying pressure
Live --> It is suprisingly easy to get an average of 6 live out of the Finks which is a neck breaker for burn, makes the Zoo matchup a lot easier (I mean he can almost kill every critter they have twice and boost us with at least 4 live, making it hard for Zoo to keep up the pressure) and sometimes makes it hard for decks like ANT to get the right count for the Tendrils if you make it that far. It helps you keep up pressure if people play stuff like boardsweepers and sac effects (pox) and some others.
So in total I found Finks more suitable as a allround talent for my playstile.
Mother and Harrier almost do the same thing as well (negate a single attacker) except that mother helps more to connecting with an equipped creature by giving protection rather then tapping one blocker. She also helps in protecting your creatures against removal and seems to be more scary to most people. I would play 4 Mothers and add as many Harriers to the deck as you feel are needed to support the big guys, you donīt want a deck of tappers and protecters and losing the beaf.
Instead of the Harriers I for example play 2 Canonists, being of acceptable size with easy to spend mana, fitting the curve and being good in various situations.
I personally donīt play the runed halo maindeck (but in SB). I would be interested how good they are against a random deck. Is it worth running a Halo to negate a Goyf for example or a certain Merfolk.
Donīt try to tell you what to do. Just trying to give you an idea of my point of view. Replies are appreciated
;-)
I would cut Ranger of Eos or maybe basilisk collar. I tried him yesterday with one figure and one isamaru as a tutor targets, but i was very dissatisfied with him (in lategame, i have vial@2 or 3, you can't set vial@4 and 4 mana is too much with all equipments in deck),whereas Mangara really shined in Survival rock matchup and Flickerwisp was awesome as usually. I've tried Goldmeadow Harrier few days ago and he suprised me because he is so annoying for opponent :D.
I'll try a version with the rangers cut out in favor of a 4th Flickerwisp and 3rd Mangara.
I've found that MD Halo helps a good bit. It negates a single creature. It can also help a lot in some matchups where they run only a few specific creatures. I've been liking Goldmeadow Harrier a lot. In testing, it helped against most aggro-matchups. It lets us keep another one of their creatures from attacking, and stops their Jitte-bearer. It also helps against stuff like DD, Re-animator and a few others.
Basilisk Collar is good with Mother of Runes and it helps us race aggro. I would rather not cut it out.
Death and Taxes made 14th place at SCG 5K in Orlando this weekend:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=31994
Looks like he opted to run BFT at the one drop slot. There wasn't a single zoo deck in the T16 though, does anyone know what the meta was like?
I'm curious about the inclusion of Wing Shards. I wonder how well it worked out for him.
BFT as a 1-drop is another idea that I believe is worth considering as a meta-pick in a zoo/goblins heavy meta.
wing shards i think is against progenitals and aggrodecks, not sure though
BFT does really seem ike an interesting inclusion for the mainboard, but I myself have never really feared red decks that much.
Its great against Goblins, Agro Loam, Zoo (with apes), Progenitus, Ichorid and more ofcourse.. I guess its ok to play it mainboard if your meta full of the decks mentioned..
Well, I think I am moving my Canonists to the Sideboard, they were just subpar tonight for the last time. I am also consider finally replacing my Figures for Moms, but I gotta ask: how have Kitchen Finks worked for the players that use them? My Meta (s) seem to be becoming increasingly more and more aggro based.
Finn's 5k report is up.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?17050-[REPORT]-5K-Orlando
Seems maindeck Forge-Tender was not such a strange choice after all.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1270181048
I think you guys just had a field day. This shit kicks ass. Whats gonna get cut for it? You can find 2 with Rangers of Eos too.
EDIT:
Nvm, its good, but not as great as I thought it was. I had no idea it started at Level 0.
Actually, I think this is really what Death and Taxes needs right now. It's a much better equipment carrier than BFT and Isamaru, and is another late game finisher. If you have nothing else to do, attacking with a 3/3 first strike on turn 2 is still great. You can also Vial him in turn 2 and pump. And lastly, a mana sink if we really get flooded, though I find that with all the equipment, we sometimes don't have too much mana just laying around. Unfortunately, 3/3 still dies to bolt and we can't keep mana open to play Swords and stuff.
Well its better in what context? BFT is certainly better when you are dealing with Burn. Its irrelevant if you are dealing with PTE or STP.
Its easier to get it to a 3/3 First Strike than it is to get Figure to a 4/4. The great thing when comparing him to Figure is that you can always use extra mana to get him to 7 faster unlike Figure which is a much bigger mana sink. In that sense, you can afford to play many non-basics like Wasteland and Port without having to get to 5 plains just to make him huge.
I think its worth noting, though, that saving him with Flickerwisp makes him lose his counters. :/
But it is another creature that NEEDS to be removed, unlike BFT. Greater threat density while maintaining the curve of this deck is important. At level two, it still kills all of Zoo's smaller creatures.
I still like BFT as a sideboard card. There are matchups where it shines and others where its just a 1/1. Finn did take 14th place at SCG Orlando, but he said in his report he was dissatisfied with it. I think we should test this out. Vacrix, get MWS working already!
I'm a bit sceptical about Level-Uppers for just one reason: it's sorcery-speed ability.
You can't leave open mana and Vial 'em at EOT and pump immideately.
DnT has some problems with Zoo and Zoo runs 10+ instant removal spells, so you will most often just sink your mana into nothing. That's why Figure is not that good against Zoo and this new guy will be even worse.
Also, try Goldmeadow Harrier. That little kithkin is so much needed equalizer against bigger creatures. He do that in both defensive and offensive ways (it doesn't matter for him if you tap dangerous attacker or huge blocker) and he do it early. I think versatility is the reason I like the cards so much.
I've had a lot of success with Goldmeadow Harrier. It helps against most decks that run a few dedicated large beasticks. It also taps blockers so our equipment bearer can swing. What are everyone's opinions on True Believer as a SB card? I've found that it helps against combo and paradoxically monoblack.
I've played with True Believer against Burn with great success, its a great addition to Cannonist from the board, especially if you get Mom down. I guess it would be pretty good against mono-black. I haven't really run into that much though. Its a pretty low Tier deck IMO.
I mainly run it as anti-combo, so that I have 3 maindeck hosers and I can bring in another 6 from the SB. But I decided to side in True believers as a test, because I won g1 and could still come back g3. Turns out that a lot of mono-black decks seem to have discarded some targeted removal in favor of sacrifice effects, which made it all the more efficient.
True Believers are good. Stops almost all discard spell, a good portion of combos, etc etc etc. Honestly, since I have been playing the deck 3-4 have always been in my Sideboard even when others question why.
Goldmeadow seems interesting, but I just can't seem to make myself purchase them for some reason.....
Goldmeadow Harriers are cheap, but I wouldn't order them by themselves. If you happen to be ordering other stuff, you could just stick it on top. They're what? A quarter each at most?
Hi guys,
on the subject of "Goldmeadow Harrier":
While I find him descent I feel he isnīt needed as much as other cards that could take his slot. He taps away blockers and big attacking guys. Mother does basically the same. Flickerwisp can take out blockers as well. Swords, O-Ring and Mangara all deal with creatures permanently. I donīt think itīs hard to connect with equipments due to the flying ability several creatures have. I also feel that 8 cc1 drops is enough. Goldmeadow Harrier also lacks being a threat by himself.
Other cards that can go in his spot: Canonist; BFT; Kitchen Finks or some new Level Up dude.......
At the moment I am playing 3 Canonists maindeck and find him:
a) easy to cast
b) just fast enough for dealing ok with combos, sometimes stealing G1
c) a body of 2/2 is an ok beater
d) really shines against a lot of controldecks and stuff like Enchantress, Elves, (Burn); Discard-Decks.....
I feel that D&Tīs power is based on the versatility of the cards included and the curve being well trimmed from cc1 to cc3 making this deck incredible resiliant to aggro and control and not beiing hopeless against combo.
Just my 0.02 $
Harrier does one thing no other card in here does on its own... Hold off Iona till you can karakas her out of play..... That said, I think a few deserve the slots in the maindeck....
That's also true. So far, I believe the common opinion is that Harrier is worth it as a 2-3 of. I wouldn't run more than that though.
Wow. So I was gonna build this deck right before around the time of the M10 rules changes, and I decided not to when combat damage decided to no longer use the stack. I basically thought it was going to kill the archetype.
Now I kinda want to build it again, since it's really the only viable deck that's close to White Weenie, and I just checked the price of Karakas: let's just say this deck no longer seems so budget friendly anymore. Ugh. I own zero Karakas, and a few months ago I probably could have gotten a playset easily for less than the price of one single copy. Lame.