[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I had an interesting situation when I was just messing around last night. I was a little off my game (a few beers and no sleep, i misbuilt a ponder stack...) but I ended up with a hand of like:

2 land in play
(in hand)
2 LED
2 D. Rit
1 bargain
1 Land
1 Mystical Tutor

Is there any way to win this turn (turn 2) with this? I thought there was by tutoring for DDay and the going draw4, but that only works if you pull a cantrip in the top 4 along with DDay, which I didn't.

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Rit, Rit, LED, LED, Mystical Tutor (BBBBB) for IGG, Bargain (BB) breaking LEDs for UUU and BBB (UUUBBBBB, 6 storm), drawing IGG and 3 other cards. Play IGG floating UBBB returning mystical tutor, bargain, led. Play LED, Mystical Tutor for Tendrils, Bargain breaking LED for BBB and hope that somewhere in the other 6 cards you drew you hit either Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, or Lotus Petal (or a Brainstorm/Ponder/Tendrils/etc).

You would think that Landstill doesn't put any pressure on you (and this is correct), but if your life total is suddenly 7-10, that Mishra's Factory is a lot more pressure than you want. While you do get additional cards, generally spending BBB for a Duress effect or to put yourself on a clock against a deck that wouldn't normally have a clock isn't the best (considering you probably burn a ritual effect to do it or you're opening yourself up to Wasteland (and in the process, likely just Duressing away Counterspell if they don't have a threat on board).

EDIT: Didnt thought of the Igg route.

Depending on the opponent it might be a good idea to try Drit + Bargain turn two and Mystical for the missing piece with second land to aim at a turn 3 combo.

Against MWC (I think Torgar was piloting one of IBA's more recent builds), I found that I was far more successful when I would side out pretty much all of my combo (leaving in Mystical Tutors) for something like this:

+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Rushing River
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Slaughter Pact
+1 Grapeshot
+1 Helm of Awakening
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Extirpate

-2 Doomsday
-4 Dark Ritual
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Cruel Bargain
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Ponder

The basic idea is that the only ways they have to beat us involve artifact creatures (Painter Beats or Mill combo or Belcher Kill), Eternal Dragon, or Decree of Justice. We have all the time in the world to setup 2x Top + Helm + Grapeshot/Tendrils and we can do it off actual lands. I just brought in all of my removal and decided to out-control MWC. It worked. As it turns out, 5c Control-Combo beats Mono White Control-Combo in the Control-Combo mirror.

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Originally Posted by emidln

Rit, Rit, LED, LED, Mystical Tutor (BBBBB) for IGG, Bargain (BB) breaking LEDs for UUU and BBB (UUUBBBBB, 6 storm), drawing IGG and 3 other cards. Play IGG floating UBBB returning mystical tutor, bargain, led. Play LED, Mystical Tutor for Tendrils, Bargain breaking LED for BBB and hope that somewhere in the other 6 cards you drew you hit either Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, or Lotus Petal (or a Brainstorm/Ponder/Tendrils/etc).

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In case you're running IT you could also go this way:

Mystical Tutor for IT, Rit, Rit, LED, LED (BBBBB), cast Bargain breaking 1x LED for BBB (BBBBB), draw into IT. Play IT for IGG breaking LED (BBBBBB), play IGG, return IT and 2x Dark Ritual (BB). Rit, Rit (BBBBBB), cast IT for Tendrils for 24.

The Reason for breaking one LED while casting bargain is that you could draw into IGG - this way you can cast it, break the second LED, discard IT+other, return IT, LED, LED.

Also: if you draw into Tendrils, simply discard it for the second LED and return it instead of IT.

The only way you can fizzle this way would be drawing into Tendrils AND IGG through Bargain, but that's a risk I would take :wink:

Okay, another situation: The game has gone longer than expected, and I have lands in play, 1 island, 1 swamp, 1 scrubland, 1 plains. My hand is D. Rit, brainstorm, LED, Doomsday. The best I can make this do is 9 storm with a standard cantrip stack (meditate, petal, d. rit, d. rit, tendrils). I don't think there is any way to work a double sensei's in there, because you're deck deathing yourself and i can't think of a good way (other than waiting till next turn and hoping you draw a useful spell) to add one more storm.

EDIT: Also, my current list that I've been having a lot of success with:

4 M. Tutor
4 DDay
4 Chant
4 Duress
1 Wipe away
4 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 ponder
4 D. Rit
4 LED
3 Petal
1 C. Rit
2 Draw4
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 scrub
1 sea
1 tundra

SB:
3 Serenity
1 IT
1 IGG
1 HOA
1 GS
1 slaughter pact
2 Extirpate
3 R. River
1 Wipe away
1 E. Truth

If you guys are looking for something with a little more strength against DS and a little faster goldfish, give this a try. Lotus petals really help round everything out and being able to fetch a basic of each color is really nice. I miss k.grip a little against control, but wipe away is doing well enough at getting rid of counterbalance.

Meditate, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond/Dark Ritual, Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony = 22 life.

Just curious, do you guys ever wish you had a second removal spell MD? I've been running Wipe Away and Slaughter Pact and just straight up love being able to kill Mage or Teeg with out breaking stride.

As far as SBs go, against aggro I find boarding in a set of ITs is pretty good, especially when you want to board out the excess disruption.

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Meditate, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond/Dark Ritual, Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony = 22 life.

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Dammit, I didn't think of an IGG trick. I definitely need more practice with this deck before october.


@Breathweapon: What does your board look like? I don't know how you could fit a whole set of tutors. Also, how much accell do you play? It wouldnt be worth it to board them in without 14 accell or more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I had an interesting situation when I was just messing around last night. I was a little off my game (a few beers and no sleep, i misbuilt a ponder stack...) but I ended up with a hand of like:

2 land in play
(in hand)
2 LED
2 D. Rit
1 bargain
1 Land
1 Mystical Tutor

Is there any way to win this turn (turn 2) with this? I thought there was by tutoring for DDay and the going draw4, but that only works if you pull a cantrip in the top 4 along with DDay, which I didn't.

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If you got IT, Mystical into it, then rituals and LEDs, followed by Bargain, cracking one of the LEDs in response. You will draw into IT + 3 stuffs, having already achieved a storm of 6, with UUUBB in pool. Play whatever, then IT, cracking the last LED in response and then IGG, getting IT + 2 stuffs back for lots of Tendrils copies.

EDIT - So fucking late. I kinda skipped 10 posts after the quoted one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Dammit, I didn't think of an IGG trick. I definitely need more practice with this deck before october.


@Breathweapon: What does your board look like? I don't know how you could fit a whole set of tutors. Also, how much accell do you play? It wouldnt be worth it to board them in without 14 accell or more.

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I'm using Emidln's list more or less, the SB is just bounce and IT, I was finding the ITs useful vs aggro despite their loss of speed relative to the loss of acceleration because they circumvented randomness like burn and Pithing Needle.

It's kind of like a Storm transformational SB.

Will Ad Nauseum have a place in FT?

It won't (read pages 38-39).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I'm using Emidln's list more or less, the SB is just bounce and IT, I was finding the ITs useful vs aggro despite their loss of speed relative to the loss of acceleration because they circumvented randomness like burn and Pithing Needle.

It's kind of like a Storm transformational SB.

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Oh, I absolutely run one and another IGG, I was just curious about running 4x.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Oh, I absolutely run one and another IGG, I was just curious about running 4x.

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Is the second IGG how you guys are making up for the loss of Storm count from the lack of acceleration?

Sort of. With 2 IGGs the IGG-Loop becomes an alternative kill route, it doesn't function well with only one IGG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Sort of. With 2 IGGs the IGG-Loop becomes an alternative kill route, it doesn't function well with only one IGG.

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One play I find myself frequently doing is laying 2xLED as soon as possible against discard and then m. tutoring for IT so the entire kill is invulnerable to discard. To do this, you only need 1 IT but you need 2 IGGs as well. (this also works nicely hiding things with brainstorm)

(2 land, 2 LED in play, IT on top of deck) draw, play IT (storm 1) pop both LED for BBBBBB, fetch IGG, play IGG (II, BB) return IT, 2LED, play 2 LED (IV, BB) Play IT on the stack pop leds for BBBBBB (V, BBBBBB) Fetch IGG, IGG returning LEDx2, IT (VI, BB) play 2x LED (VIII, BB) Play IT, pop 2x LED on the stack for BBBBBB, (IX, BBBBBB) fetch tendrils, tendrils for 20 with BB floating.

EDIT: You all knew that kill route, otherwise you wouldn't be playing this deck. Sorry for restating the obvious.

So the Top + Cantrip stack is incredibly cool. I don't think I can explain exactly how dope winning with 5 mana but not using the graveyard/leaving things to chance is without stealing dopness factors from Ray Robillard. Winning with 4 mana is even better. So much so that I really want to fit in Street Wraiths in addition to Top, Brainstorm, and Ponder. Thoughts on how best to achieve this? I have some ideas I've been testing, but nothing has panned out quite well enough to post yet.

-1 Cabal
-1 DD/Bargain
-1 Ponder
+3 SW

I don't like Bargain, there are not that many situations where you cant get U after DD.
I had it once with the standard SDT into Meditate stack, but normally when I use that Stack I have LED in play.

EDIT: 6 life to combo of seems ok

Has the lifeloss from street wraith been a factor at all when playtesting? Just curious. It's the same amount of lifeloss as Thoughtseize, and that is too much loss for me, is it different when it's a cantrip instead of a protection spell? Maybe this is what's holding SW up. IDK.

Pce,

--DC

The idea to reinclude SW has its merits, i thought about about some variations and how to create more efficient stacks, this is what i came up with so far:

Needed:
SDT in play, SW in hand

[Top]
LED
Ideas Unbound
Petal/LED
LED
Tendrils
[Bottom]

Gain:
5 Storm + Tendrils

How To: I suppose you know that.

The big advantage here is that no mana is needed after Doomsday, downside is that it needs a otherwise dead card (Ideas Unbound). I couldnt make it work with a Draw4, because there you would have drawn the Tendrils and a Petal + Dark Rit isnt enought to power it out Thoughts?

EDIT:

If you dont have SDT, but a cantrip it could also be done, but you need the mana to play the cantrip. Result is again 5 Storm + Tendrils

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Needed:
SDT in play, SW in hand

[Top]
LED
Ideas Unbound
Petal/LED
LED
Tendrils
[Bottom]

Gain:
5 Storm + Tendrils

How To: I suppose you know that.

The big advantage here is that no mana is needed after Doomsday, downside is that it needs a otherwise dead card (Ideas Unbound). I couldnt make it work with a Draw4, because there you would have drawn the Tendrils and a Petal + Dark Rit isnt enought to power it out Thoughts?

EDIT:

If you dont have SDT it could also be done, but you need the mana to play the cantrip. Result is again 5 Storm + Tendrils

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Have you been playing ideas unbound in practice, or was this just to make the stack work? I'd be willing to try out ideas, although as a setup spell (which is what it would be, i think) it's sub-par. It does give a few fifferent options for DDay stacks with things like ponder that could generate higher storm with enough mana as well as more "pass the turn" stacks since you don't worry about deck death. It warrants consideration, but is so useless outside the combo because of its card disadvantage and CC that I don't know if the stacks it can make are worth it.

Used to make the "No outside mana needed stack" to work, i am just a guy who is doing DD stack technology, i dont like random mws games and my testpartners a very unreliable. :rolleyes:

The problem is that Ideas Unbound is a sorcery, as well as a lousy set-up spell in comparison to any draw-4. It does nothing for the control matchup as it gives absolutely no card advantage. It doesn't even replace itself. This is absolutely a dead draw any time it's not in a DD stack. It even opens you up to graveyard hate (this is minimal, but it could theoretically be a problem).

I'm all for a hybrid version of FT, molding the IGG/SW version into the SDT/D-Day version, but I'm not sure useless cards are the way to go. I think we need to come up with a better manaless stack. It's definitely a sweet idea being able to go off with virtually no accel other than BBB, which is doable by lands or a single Ritual effect.

The problem I've been having is finding Top. I assume SW is/will be just as hard to find. I've been needing to find a way to get to my cantrip. A lot of times I have a Brainstorm + 2x cards in my hand, but my accel is an LED, OR I'll have the whole combo other than Top and no way to find it. That seems to be my problem.

Someone said that ponder piles weren't possible. That seems riduculous. LMK?

Also, why is a manaless stack necessary? I mean, if it only builds you 5 storm plus tendrils, you are still 4 storm-count short of winning, and mini-Tendrils + D-Day seems bad...I can see going IGG --> Mini-Tendrils into D-Day mini tendrils. More than that, maybe I'm not getting it's usefulness. More cantrips, sure. Manaless Stacks...meh. Not so much.

Call me crazy....

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: Ever since someone said something about Vampiric Tutor, I've been feeling very wistful...I want them badly...

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Someone said that ponder piles weren't possible. That seems riduculous. LMK?

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Ponder piles are possible, why not? The fact is that they are simply the worst of them all. It's like a SW only pile... you never get enough storm unless you get that extra mana, which usually is lots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Also, why is a manaless stack necessary? I mean, if it only builds you 5 storm plus tendrils, you are still 4 storm-count short of winning, and mini-Tendrils + D-Day seems bad...I can see going IGG --> Mini-Tendrils into D-Day mini tendrils. More than that, maybe I'm not getting it's usefulness. More cantrips, sure. Manaless Stacks...meh. Not so much.

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A manaless pile is good for the control match, since you will be able to spend your disruption in the same turn it's being played without requiring further mana investiment. The contradiction is that control matches tend to last longer, while you will use your cantrips to dig for disruption while keeping a single ritual in hand. This makes you run out of cantrips, usually having that single necessary one for enabling the pile. At a very first glance, it seems useful if you want to go into that 5c combo-control transformation emidln showed a few posts back, which won't work against decks that attack your manabase.

Given deadlock's example, you can do something such as Disruption, Disruption, Doomsday, 5 spells, Tendrils gives you 9 storm. Throw a Ritual in here and you got 10. Requires 3 mana (with SW, else 4), 5 specific cards in hand and Top on the board.

Yeah, I just don't see Street Wraith being that useful, outside of the cheaper, conditional stack it's just costing me life and mulligans.

The stack is cool tho', we need to unban Gush:wink:

God that would be so hawt...

@DC: With brainstorm, 2 cards in hand, and LED you can go off with just an extra U after DDay. Here's the stack:

Brainstorm
Petal
LED
IGG
Tendrils

Ponder stacks are also possible. It's...why we play ponder?

What do you guys think about night's whisper? Can we make any stacks out of it? It might be an acceptable 1-of if it allowed a pass the turn/manaless win...

EDIT: I can't come up with much off the top of my head. Perhaps I was just wrong when I thought it enabled something cool.

[QUOTE=rsaunder;280390
EDIT: I can't come up with much off the top of my head. Perhaps I was just wrong when I thought it enabled something cool.[/QUOTE]


I actually had started to say something like that about Night's Whisper in my previous post, but couldn't come up with anything either. I know it's possible, as it draws cards and therefore there is a possible stack. I'm almost certain that Vintage storm lists run it.

Pce,

--DC

I'm sure Night Whispers, X, IGG, X, Tendrils works, but I don't see how it's better than our alternatives. Night Whispers into Dark Ritual, Night Whispers, X, X, X is a 3 card, 0 mana filter and I suppose Night Whispers into that UU Draw 3 card sets up a potential stack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I'm sure Night Whispers, X, IGG, X, Tendrils works, but I don't see how it's better than our alternatives. Night Whispers into Dark Ritual, Night Whispers, X, X, X is a 3 card, 0 mana filter and I suppose Night Whispers into that UU Draw 3 card sets up a potential stack.

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Eh, it requires that we run two bad cards. I'll give the stacks some thought in anthro today, maybe I can break something. It's just an interesting card because it's not awful pre-doomsday (might even be good) and has potential to not suck.

EDIT: Use one: (pass the turn stack)

Without SDT in play: Total cost next turn 4BR All but 1B can be payed with LED:

Whisper
SDT
HOA
SDT
Grapeshot

The cool thing about this stack is that it requires NOTHING but mana and 2 life.

With SDT in play: 3B. Requires no cards in hand. Once again, can be paid with LED mana after the first 1B.

Whisper
SDT
LED
HOA
Grapeshot

These stacks basically exist to make it so you don't need 2 cards in hand for a pass-the-turn stack, which might be game changing against discard.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

These stacks basically exist to make it so you don't need 2 cards in hand for a pass-the-turn stack, which might be game changing against discard.

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Yeah, Night Whispers is more or less -1 mana -2 life to get around Brainstorm's restrictions, but using Night Whispers to draw into the stack also has a lot of possible implications.

Maybe it's a useful singleton? I can't really see running a set with Top and all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Yeah, Night Whispers is more or less -1 mana -2 life to get around Brainstorm's restrictions, but using Night Whispers to draw into the stack also has a lot of possible implications.

Maybe it's a useful singleton? I can't really see running a set with Top and all.

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Oh, i don't even know if it's a singleton. It hasnt made its way into any "win this turn" stacks yet. And it's not like we have room for a draw spell that narrow and underpowered...

It doesn't work well because drawing two cards takes away from being able to play a Draw-4 in the stack without a brainstorm.

Maybe include it in the SB for the HoA combo? Seems stupid. Emidln said it's what is holding a few storm combo builds up in Vintage. I think we shouldn't use it...

How often are you guys reliant on Top for your combo? Percentage; just a casual guess...If it's more than 44% of the time, how do you find it? Just lucksack into it, or is there something I'm missing? I get in situations where I really need it to combo off (without having to topdeck like Chuck Norris) and I have no way to find one and haven't seen one while cantripping. I realize that saving cantrips for comboing off works, but LED can get in the way of that.

Pce,

--DC

I agree on whisper. Not to be played.

I generally win with top exactly the percentage of the time that I draw it and it isn't countered. Very rarely will I have a top in play and use brainstorm stacks instead (especially because you can use top for it). Top is, from what I've seen, the best setup spell and combo enabler in the deck. It comes down the turn before and you can be productive with it and still use it to combo, unlike brainstorm/ponder. The only reason I would consider running LDV would be as a more consistant way to find top, but that's kinda janky...

A decent NW stack:

Needed:
-SDT in play, SW in hand, 1 floating
-10 life before / 5 life after DD

[top]
LED
NW
LED
IGG
Tendrils
[bottom]

8 Storm + Tendrils

The requirements of cards and mana are the same as a stack already posted, except that it only needs one colourless, but adds gy dependence and more life. Benefit is that it generates more storm though.

I did a bunch of other Street Wraith stacks in Excel, i dont think there is a point to post them all here, but maybe it would be nice to upload them somewhere?

What are the thoughts on the second basic Island? Its nice to have 4 basics, but sometimes i wish i got a second Underground Sea or something similiar that produces B, because i run into situations where i want to cast Doomsday without the help of a Ritual effect.

Bayou, Sea, Scrubland, Swamp

Atm I play a 2nd Tundra instead of Bayou but I think a 2nd Sea would be better.


plz post your Stacks here :wink:

My manabase:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Heath//Mire (tested mire, haven't tested heath; I think Mire is best)
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

I've been testing a 9th Fetch, and guess that it's not bad. The more fetches and basix, the less you'll get screwed by Moon effects, and you thin 1x more, giving you a deck with lower land density. I haven't had the problem of running out of lands to fetch, because let's face it--we go off turn 3/4. Our games don't go to 8 land drops...

Pce,

--DC

I'm pretty land light at the moment, but keep in mind I run 3 petals:

4 Strand
4 Delta
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 sea
1 tundra
1 scrub

I'd like to find room for land #16, either a trop or another sea. The deck runs just so smoothly with 3 petals though, I'm reluctant to cut one for what would be the worst land in the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I've been testing a 9th Fetch, and guess that it's not bad. The more fetches and basix, the less you'll get screwed by Moon effects, and you thin 1x more, giving you a deck with lower land density. I haven't had the problem of running out of lands to fetch, because let's face it--we go off turn 3/4. Our games don't go to 8 land drops...

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Rarely will a non blue fetchland keep you from getting Moon screwed. Your primary goal is not to win under moon, but to get rid of it and then win. For that, you need blue, maybe white, depending on how accessible Serenity is and how much can you ignore Magus in case he's there, to be able to cast your Rushing Rivers, Echoing Truths, Mystical Tutors and cantrips. After you've got ridden of Moon, crack your former mountains into whichever colors you need.

Idk, that's a good theory, but I play against Dragon Stompy all the time and I do combo through it. When your removal is K. Grip and they drop a magus, you kind of have to, at least game one is that way.

I've gone back to Wipe Away in the main. I have to due to Magus being present.

Oh well. Oh, I've dropped Meddling Mages out of my sideboard as I literally do not see thresh EVER. Or Landstill. Or anything besides TES, Ichorid, Spring Tide, Dragon Stompy and Burn. It's an interesting meta...Spring Tide is the hardest one to beat combo-wise, Dragon Stompy screws me hardcore often, burn is a race that I only win against by IGGing off, and Ichorid is cake any way you cut it. TES is a coinflip, honestly. I know we've had this conversation, but that's how it pans out for me. Disruption is the key to winning against TES. I know Mages do okay against Spring Tide, but they are easily dealt with via Cunning Wish-->bounce spell. I'm comfortable enough with Duress-->Extirpate. That buys me enough time to win.

I don't have the right meta to test Meddling Mage in. Someone else should...

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: Sunday Evening: Just went 3-0 in matches vs. TES...2-1, 2-0, 2-1 respectively. His two wins were due to turn one wins on the play. It just reminds me why I like Mystical Tutors, and thus this storm build the best. I took my buddy's list and turned around and went 2-0 against him with it...0.o

IDK...lol