[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I understand what you are saying.

What I am saying, and the source of my question, is that I am playing this deck as a more grindy version of Maverick and currently I am not playing black, which I have mentioned several times.

So the actual question was: what would you do if you took out Knight? The mana base and creature selection would obviously change, but how would you do it?

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There's no question of "how" if there's not a compelling "why". Maverick is already SUPER grindy, at that point it just feels like you're wasting match time.

They're 2 different decks. It's almost certainly better to play Punishing Mav or play 4C. Doing something in the middle seems very frivolous to discuss. Not trying to dump on your ideas here, you just can't expect a nuanced answer (on the 4C thread) for a non-compelling question. This could be a fine idea to brew around in a new thread though.

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Originally Posted by Thoughtsauce

There's no question of "how" if there's not a compelling "why". Maverick is already SUPER grindy, at that point it just feels like you're wasting match time.

They're 2 different decks. It's almost certainly better to play Punishing Mav or play 4C. Doing something in the middle seems very frivolous to discuss. Not trying to dump on your ideas here, you just can't expect a nuanced answer (on the 4C thread) for a non-compelling question. This could be a fine idea to brew around in a new thread though.

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Or you could just answer the question.

I am very clear on what the decks are and do. I am also clear on what aggro loam is and isn't.

So... what would you change in the deck if you had to remove knight of the reliquary?

So I have a few questions for the ladies and gents that have been playing this deck a lot longer then I have. First off I came from Miracles and decided to give up the blue control in legacy and move to something different and saw this deck and decided to give it a go.

After reading a ton of posts here and trying to find other info I'm just trying to get some advice on a sideboard and maybe a land base. My local meta is just a few friends who all play different decks and not a large diversity due to funds and not wanting to proxy everything all the time.

So I guess question is what should a sideboard look like for the current legacy meta. (I'm planning on playing this deck at the SCG Open in DC)
Currently I'm running:
1x Containment Priest
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Golgari Charm
1x Garruk Rentless
1x Tireless Tracker
2x Cabal Therapy

Yeah i know its 17 cards I need to cut 2 card and I have no idea what I need for some matches. I have played a ton of matches vs Storm, DnT, Burn, Grixis Delver, BR Renimator but besides that i have no other experience with the deck besides the few matches I have against some of the decks we started proxying for practice. The Cabal Therapy's have done some work sometimes but I'm not sure if they are right. I was using them to great extent against storm with a diamond and a way to get Dryad arbor but other than that I'm not to sure about them. Any advice would be helpful here

My landbase is:
1x Barren Moor
1x Cabal Pit
1x Badlands
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath

any advice here is it to much or not enough of one thing or not enough of another or what not? With my current meta the lands seam great but I don't know if I am overloading on utility lands or what not. One thing that I do not have is a Tabernacle i just cant afford one. I do have access to a Horizon Canopy for this event if i want to use it but I haven't been testing with it. Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks in advance

Hey, first of all my thoughts about your sideboard:
Looks pretty normal to me, except maybe 3 sweeper and 3 of thalia/canonist are more than normal. I would cut probably 1 thalia and 1 deluge. The cabal therapies do not look very good, imo. Since you need to have a dryad arbor to make them a good discard spell and even then you can miss the first try. They are bad without arbor, because you don´t want to sacrifice another creature. And even sacrificing your arbor sets you back 1 land and you want to be fast(er) against combo decks like S&S, Storm, Reanimator, Belcher.... Therefore i would change the therapies to thoughtseizes. In the end you have the classic sideboard (except - tracker, + StP), but there is a reason we play some of the cards.
You could also go the -3 leyline and + bojuka bog, + crop rotation and something, maybe another grave hate card, but i like the 3 leylines more as grave hate package. The crop rotation would also help to get the combo faster in some matchups like burn, or others where a 20/20 flying creature is enough to win.


Then your landbase:
29 lands (if i counted correctly) seem pretty high, but with DD+ Stage, Maze you need more than the normal count. The thing is, what did you cut from your spell package to increase the land count. I feel like i don´t want to cut Decays, Fires, Creatures to have the combo, but that is up to you i guess. Plain adding the combo to your landbase neglects the bad manabase issues you would have if you switch the combo against 2 mana porducing lands. Speaking about the manabase, do you play liliana´s ? If you play them you can consider playing cabal pit instead of barb. ring to help your mana. The rest seems totally fine, i am playing basically the same mana base (without the combo) and am pretty happy with it. I never tested the horizon canopy, but it looks like a worse cycle land if you want to use it as cycling outlet. You don´t have the time to pay 2 mana to draw 1 card, + loam every turn. Therefore a cycle land only costs 1, but don´t cost you a landdrop. Maybe it will help in the early game sometimes, but i think most of the time you rather want it to be a cycle land in the late game.

You absolutely don´t need a tabernacle (especially without crop rot).

Hope i helped you some amount, even when i just take like the classic build as reference and point towards it. But with more info about your main we can probably help a bit more.

I like all 4 hate bears. I'd cut Garruk and Tracker. Agree on switching the Therapies to Thoughtseize if you have them. Priest could be cut to swap for a Swords, but if you have Elves or SnT then the Priest is invaluable.

Having both Barb Ring and Cabal Pit seems like overkill. I'd cut the Ring, possibly run Horizon Canopy in that slot.

Depths, Stage, Maze, Dryad, GQ is a lot of extra utility lands that clog up the hand and take up land drops, so maybe narrow those down unless you're also running some Runamap Excavators in the main.

I think it would be worthwhile to post the full main deck.

https://deckstats.net/decks/77592/825627-4c-loam

Here's a current list of what I have been running for the last few months. I am switching the Cabal Thearpys for thoughtsiezes. But I just set this up from what was sitting in my deck box currently

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I like all 4 hate bears. I'd cut Garruk and Tracker. Agree on switching the Therapies to Thoughtseize if you have them. Priest could be cut to swap for a Swords, but if you have Elves or SnT then the Priest is invaluable.

Having both Barb Ring and Cabal Pit seems like overkill. I'd cut the Ring, possibly run Horizon Canopy in that slot.

Depths, Stage, Maze, Dryad, GQ is a lot of extra utility lands that clog up the hand and take up land drops, so maybe narrow those down unless you're also running some Runamap Excavators in the main.

I think it would be worthwhile to post the full main deck.

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I agree with you on the Thoughtseizes.

Also I like the Barb Ring as another wincon of the deck because I am used to people seeing the 20/20 threat and trying to stop it and not thinking of the barb ring burn out. My thoughts for adding it to the deck was because I was once burnt out by one while i was on Miracles and my op did not have the 20/20 kill possible (though he was on lands not loam)

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Originally Posted by justarandomdude

Hey, first of all my thoughts about your sideboard:
Looks pretty normal to me, except maybe 3 sweeper and 3 of thalia/canonist are more than normal. I would cut probably 1 thalia and 1 deluge. The cabal therapies do not look very good, imo. Since you need to have a dryad arbor to make them a good discard spell and even then you can miss the first try. They are bad without arbor, because you don´t want to sacrifice another creature. And even sacrificing your arbor sets you back 1 land and you want to be fast(er) against combo decks like S&S, Storm, Reanimator, Belcher.... Therefore i would change the therapies to thoughtseizes. In the end you have the classic sideboard (except - tracker, + StP), but there is a reason we play some of the cards.
You could also go the -3 leyline and + bojuka bog, + crop rotation and something, maybe another grave hate card, but i like the 3 leylines more as grave hate package. The crop rotation would also help to get the combo faster in some matchups like burn, or others where a 20/20 flying creature is enough to win.


Then your landbase:
29 lands (if i counted correctly) seem pretty high, but with DD+ Stage, Maze you need more than the normal count. The thing is, what did you cut from your spell package to increase the land count. I feel like i don´t want to cut Decays, Fires, Creatures to have the combo, but that is up to you i guess. Plain adding the combo to your landbase neglects the bad manabase issues you would have if you switch the combo against 2 mana porducing lands. Speaking about the manabase, do you play liliana´s ? If you play them you can consider playing cabal pit instead of barb. ring to help your mana. The rest seems totally fine, i am playing basically the same mana base (without the combo) and am pretty happy with it. I never tested the horizon canopy, but it looks like a worse cycle land if you want to use it as cycling outlet. You don´t have the time to pay 2 mana to draw 1 card, + loam every turn. Therefore a cycle land only costs 1, but don´t cost you a landdrop. Maybe it will help in the early game sometimes, but i think most of the time you rather want it to be a cycle land in the late game.

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I have been thinking of the crop rotation package but it seams like its only good when chalice is not. But again there are plenty of decks where chalice is bad and you still want to slam a 20/20 on the board as fast as possible so I am looking into it.

For the land base I posted my full list and like I said above the Barb ring may be because of prior experience with the card owning me in a close match. I'm still 50/50 on the combo I kill with it when I have to but even with the matches where I have to race them I still normally find a way other than the combo to kill. I just keep it there because sometimes a turn 3 20/20 is gg no matter how bad the matchup is for you .

Sorry it took me so long to post my full list school has been kicking my ass

I want to jump in the sideboard discussion as well:
is there an updated analysis on the card choices?

like why do we pick both canonist and thalia while others do not?

also, why 2 lonely thoughseize? having two single discard spell in the 75 make me feel unconfortable.
same goes for Swords to plowshare:
why two?
why StP when we run Chalice main deck??? Is there exactly for marit lage?

Other slot are pretty self explanatory.

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

I want to jump in the sideboard discussion as well:
is there an updated analysis on the card choices?

like why do we pick both canonist and thalia while others do not?

also, why 2 lonely thoughseize? having two single discard spell in the 75 make me feel unconfortable.
same goes for Swords to plowshare:
why two?
why StP when we run Chalice main deck??? Is there exactly for marit lage?

Other slot are pretty self explanatory.

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Swords to Plowshares is something of a 'transformational' sideboard plan. Swords will generally be brought in for games that Chalice is not particularly compelling (Death and Taxes, on the draw vs Czech Pile), and thus fulfils the role for effiency when trying to establish in the early game.

Though Chalice is an integral piece to our strategy, there are matchups that we are particurly vulnerable to (because we don't play Force of Will, because we aren't always on the play) that it is necessary to run our own one drops as 'buffers' where our removal spells are not important. Remember, our Chalices do not always resolve, they are sometimes removed, so it is often necessary to opt into impactful one for ones so we don't lose on turn one, or even after our Chalice is handled.

Any tips or words of wisdom about our elves matchup?

Are we typically favored?

I am playing a stock 4c list with 2 charm, 1 deluge, 1 canonize side and containment priest in the side.

I feel it will be even to slightly in our favor due to chalice, Teeg, fires and Liliana main plus very relevant cards sideboarded in.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Any tips or words of wisdom about our elves matchup?

Are we typically favored?

I am playing a stock 4c list with 2 charm, 1 deluge, 1 canonize side and containment priest in the side.

I feel it will be even to slightly in our favor due to chalice, Teeg, fires and Liliana main plus very relevant cards sideboarded in.

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Having played a TON of this matchup, here are my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.

My Goals
Pre-Board
- Land a T1 Chalice on 1
- Get Wasteland online, they run 1-2 forests depending on the build
From this point, their plan is now to chain 2-drops into a NO, as you've shut down their Glimpse plan, or find a Rec Sage (likely via GSZ). You've bought time at least.
- If you fail to get an early Chalice online, they are much more likely to build up the necessary mass to produce a T3 win. In this case, you may be on your back foot, and reliant on a slower Punishing Fire plan. I find that Liliana is win more in these situations, and not all that useful.
- Sweepers can help, but you will need more pressure on board to win if you lack Chalice / Wasteland control.

Post Board
Board in: Tabernacle, Teeg, Golgari Charms (I main 1 deluge), and sometimes Canonist or Containment Priest, depending how I built for the tournament.
Board out: Lilianas, 1 Abrupt Decay (it's fine, but worse than the above), Library (it's great, but if the game is about Library, we should have won anyway), sometimes a K-Command (again, depending on that day's build).
The strategy doesn't change dramatically, but now you have to consider their hand disruption (Therapy / Thoughtseize) and additional permanent removal (Abrupt Decay).
- Again, T1 Chalice is a beast, but you cannot rely on it as heavily as G1.
- Timely Tabernacle and Teeg can win the game. Flashing in Containment Priest is amazing game, but have to keep them from ripping it out of your hand. If they are playing more slowly and disrupting your hand after decaying a Chalice, you need to get a threat on board, or establish Wasteland control. They will be fetching basics which will make this plan awkward. If they took a turn off of little green men, it could be a good thing.
- Always kill Wirewood Symbiote first, DRS second.
- This is a great spot if you run a main / side Ghost Quarter, as taking out their forests is a thorough beating.

There will be awkward hands that you "need" to keep in the dark, but will struggle to contain them in Game One. T1/2 Bob can help you move into control, but it is frequently the wrong play if they are on a T2/3 Craterhoof.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Or you could just answer the question.

I am very clear on what the decks are and do. I am also clear on what aggro loam is and isn't.

So... what would you change in the deck if you had to remove knight of the reliquary?

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I would start by not cutting my best creature...

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Originally Posted by patrickjdoyle

I would start by not cutting my best creature...

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That was like two weeks ago!

And that still isn’t even an answer to the question!

I understand that I am suggesting something strange, but it is just an experiment. After seeing the response, I stopped posting about it and now keep my thoughts to myself.

That being said I am 6-2 and am in the top 8 of an 8 week legacy league with a blend of loam brews.

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Originally Posted by juzamjimjams

Swords to Plowshares is something of a 'transformational' sideboard plan. Swords will generally be brought in for games that Chalice is not particularly compelling (Death and Taxes, on the draw vs Czech Pile), and thus fulfils the role for effiency when trying to establish in the early game.

Though Chalice is an integral piece to our strategy, there are matchups that we are particurly vulnerable to (because we don't play Force of Will, because we aren't always on the play) that it is necessary to run our own one drops as 'buffers' where our removal spells are not important. Remember, our Chalices do not always resolve, they are sometimes removed, so it is often necessary to opt into impactful one for ones so we don't lose on turn one, or even after our Chalice is handled.

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I See, make sense, but I was also wondering why just two (I guess they get along other cards, will start to practice the deck soon) :D

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

I See, make sense, but I was also wondering why just two (I guess they get along other cards, will start to practice the deck soon) :D

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It's often three, no more are really necessary alongside the sweepers/rest of our removal suite.

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

I See, make sense, but I was also wondering why just two (I guess they get along other cards, will start to practice the deck soon) :D

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I dont really know how this deck can bet decks like ant or combo in general

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Originally Posted by fluuu

I dont really know how this deck can bet decks like ant or combo in general

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I do it all the time!

Turn 1 chalice, turn 2 GSZ for Teeg works quite well. Games 2/3 brings in even more hate bears and other hateful permanantes in general.

In short: if they don’t win turn 0/1, they usually don’t.

That being said, if they have the nuts they just win. So obviously we don’t want to play combo every match as we would rather play pretty much anything else.

Pretty much this ^.

You need to mulligan well obviously, but the deck has a high density of permanent based hate that's strong against decks such as ANT. We're a bit of a dog to true turn one decks, but I'm not sure that's a metric you should hold a non-blue fair deck to.

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Originally Posted by juzamjimjams

Pretty much this ^.

You need to mulligan well obviously, but the deck has a high density of permanent based hate that's strong against decks such as ANT. We're a bit of a dog to true turn one decks, but I'm not sure that's a metric you should hold a non-blue fair deck to.

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In your current list you are sans Liliana and are playing more utility and the DD package, can you discuss?

You mean my 4c list?