[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by MadRhetoric17

Well unless you're going down on NO and targets for it, the number of counters doesn't matter.

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This makes absolutely no sense at all. Do try again.

Same goes for comparing Craterhoof to Elderscale. Hoof wins you the game, Elderscale might keep you from losing it. If one were to run Elderscale, it would be in substitution of Ruric Thar. Since Ruric Thar has more applications, however little you might need them, there is no sense in running the Wurm. Don't forget Ruric also keeps you from losing whilst preventing your opponent from furthering their gameplan, which is exactly what the Wurm doesn't do. The Wurm allows your opponent to dig for an answer where Ruric kills them for it.

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Originally Posted by Atikin

The answer to problem 3 in that article seems slimy as hell. So you throw down cabal therapy and quickly say lightning bolt, then they cast it in response, and after it resolves you go "I was just saying lightning bolt for fun to try and trick ya, I actually name force of will."

On the other hand it is brilliant though...

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I may be missing something, but I can't really get behind it. If you say "lightning bolt" as you cast it, you are just giving him more information and options. You are telling him "if you do nothing I will pick lightning bolt, if you do something I will pick and you don't know what it will be."

If you just play it and stare at him, you are saying "regardless of if you do something or not, you don't know what I will pick".

Naming early just gives him the choice of letting you grab his bolt if that's what he thinks is best. I guess it's a mind game to hope he is too dumb/preoccupied to realize you just gave him additional control/options, but he is never in a worse position from you saying your pick early.

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Originally Posted by jamie7keller

I may be missing something, but I can't really get behind it. If you say "lightning bolt" as you cast it, you are just giving him more information and options. You are telling him "if you do nothing I will pick lightning bolt, if you do something I will pick and you don't know what it will be."

If you just play it and stare at him, you are saying "regardless of if you do something or not, you don't know what I will pick".

Naming early just gives him the choice of letting you grab his bolt if that's what he thinks is best. I guess it's a mind game to hope he is too dumb/preoccupied to realize you just gave him additional control/options, but he is never in a worse position from you saying your pick early.

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You want to get rid of FoW and bolt so you can safely cast Ooze. If you sit there and stare, you can only get ride of either bot or FoW. By mindgaming him, you run the chance of him bolting something else, so you can then name FoW with therapy, thus paving the way for your scooze.

I wrote an Elves primer for SCG this week (on the select side). Many of you are likely familiar with the core concepts discussed but since my list is more streamlined (More cheap elves, smaller toolbox) than most discussed here it may be worthwhile to understand my reasoning in a more structured format.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-To-Elves.html

Thanks Ross! I've been waiting for this to drop!

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

You want to get rid of FoW and bolt so you can safely cast Ooze. If you sit there and stare, you can only get ride of either bot or FoW. By mindgaming him, you run the chance of him bolting something else, so you can then name FoW with therapy, thus paving the way for your scooze.

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Ahh. Thanks. I missed the part where your only out is getting them both. You need to play to your outs, and if him making a mistake is your only out, you ought to let him. :)

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Originally Posted by Echelon

This makes absolutely no sense at all. Do try again.

Same goes for comparing Craterhoof to Elderscale. Hoof wins you the game, Elderscale might keep you from losing it. If one were to run Elderscale, it would be in substitution of Ruric Thar. Since Ruric Thar has more applications, however little you might need them, there is no sense in running the Wurm. Don't forget Ruric also keeps you from losing whilst preventing your opponent from furthering their gameplan, which is exactly what the Wurm doesn't do. The Wurm allows your opponent to dig for an answer where Ruric kills them for it.

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Just because you didn't get it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Maybe because it was because you didn't read the next few sentences you didn't include in your quote? What I'm saying is that if I'm replacing one high mana, must counter card with another, the number of counters my opponent has only makes a difference if my sideboard strategy is to take out NO/NO Targets in order to reduce the number of such cards in the deck. If that is in fact your strategy, then my statement would indeed not apply to you.

I guess this begs the question of, how many NO/NO Targets are right to have in the deck after boarding? Clearly this depends on your maindeck as well.

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Originally Posted by MadRhetoric17

Just because you didn't get it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Maybe because it was because you didn't read the next few sentences you didn't include in your quote? What I'm saying is that if I'm replacing one high mana, must counter card with another, the number of counters my opponent has only makes a difference if my sideboard strategy is to take out NO/NO Targets in order to reduce the number of such cards in the deck. If that is in fact your strategy, then my statement would indeed not apply to you.

I guess this begs the question of, how many NO/NO Targets are right to have in the deck after boarding? Clearly this depends on your maindeck as well.

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The whole discussion is waxing and waning with the question "for which decks is Elderscale a must-counter?". If the sole answer is "UR Delver without Submerge" i'm not impressed. The biggest issue is that It does nothing better than Ruric except being mono-colored

What flabbergast me the most is that Ruric Thar, The Motherfucker is still discussed!
I remember people telling me I was wrong when I said he would be a sweet 3rd NO target for the MD.

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

What flabbergast me the most is that Ruric Thar, The Motherfucker is still discussed!
I remember people telling me I was wrong when I said he would be a sweet 3rd NO target for the MD.

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<-- guilty!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

<-- guilty!

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Well your basic MO is to lambast anything interesting ever so it's hardly a surprise http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user...b50f-25x28.png

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Well your basic MO is to lambast anything interesting ever so it's hardly a surprise http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user...b50f-25x28.png

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Only if "interresting" boils down to "unneccessary", "cute" or "stupid" and lack any comprehensible reasoning for inclusion, then ... yeah ;)

I can bear being wrong and even admit it.

IN A WORLD GONE MAD WITH CUTE TECH...

Lemnear is the

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5131&type=card

Coming to a theater near you.

Scryb ranger can untap things.

edit:
magus of the candelabra.

edit again:
dang this thing survives g.charm... legit?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Only if "interresting" boils down to "unneccessary", "cute" or "stupid" and lack any comprehensible reasoning for inclusion, then ... yeah ;)

I can bear being wrong and even admit it.

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can you bear being wrong to a literal bear though?

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Originally Posted by danyul

IN A WORLD GONE MAD WITH CUTE TECH...

Lemnear is the

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6558&type=card

Coming to a theater near you.

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Fixed ;D

btw, nice article Ross. I respect your opinions on this deck a lot, and your success speaks for itself. It's nice to see some of my elf bretheren coming to the same conclusions I am (ie: culling all the cute crap, streamlining the deck's game 1 objective, and making combo enemy #1 with 6 discards).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The whole discussion is waxing and waning with the question "for which decks is Elderscale a must-counter?". If the sole answer is "UR Delver without Submerge" i'm not impressed. The biggest issue is that It does nothing better than Ruric except being mono-colored

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As I mentioned in my earlier post, the second deck I consider it useful for is Burn. Also, I'm not sure why you say "UR Delver without Submerge." I haven't seen any UR Delver decks WITH submerge, so am I crazy for assuming the most common build we'll be seeing won't have them? As for storm, I'm not really taking it into consideration. I would rather take a 5% increase in win percentage against UR Delver and Burn than a 20% increase against storm. Just my experience with the metagame here.

So the real question then is when is Ruric Thar better than Elderscale against those decks, or vice versa? This entirely depends on your view of how many answers UR Delver has to an Elderscale in play. Based on your comment about submerge, you're giving them credit for a spell I haven't seen in any decklists. If you're going to assume all of them are playing submerge/vapor snag, then yes the answer is obvious.

The whole scenario I was asking about in the first place is this: assuming maximizing your game against Burn/UR Delver (with no bounce), which wins more games Elderscale or Ruric Thar? I would imagine there are some games where either deck can still burn/attack you out while ignoring the Ruric Thar. The only time I can think of Elderscale being worse is when they bolt/fireblast to kill when they were at low enough life that Ruric would have prevented them from doing that or killing you. I also like the idea of a creature that they have to deal with before killing you, doesn't have to ever put itself into combat, and would require either 3 bolts or a bolt and fireblast to kill. Again, I'm not saying I'm correct in my logic or anything, I'm just saying that you were addressing things that I specifically didn't want to consider when I originally started asking.

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

btw, nice article Ross. I respect your opinions on this deck a lot, and your success speaks for itself. It's nice to see some of my elf bretheren coming to the same conclusions I am (ie: culling all the cute crap, streamlining the deck's game 1 objective, and making combo enemy #1 with 6 discards).

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Ross.dec in the finals too: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76019

People play planeswalkers like Garruk Relentless, I think it fits perfect in the deck. I just saw Ross's list and I am still thinking that its important to have outs against Stoneblade. I do agree that the Elderscale Wurm can be very clunky. I have considered cutting it in favor of the 4th NO, or 4th Heritage Druid. I find that having 4 Natural Order means that you are more likely to draw multiples in your opening hand.

I want to know who has had tournament success with Ruric-Thar? I've played that guy before and I loved him but I feel he doesn't save you from death. I was at 1 and hardcasted a Wurm against BUG. I ended up taking the game and then playing a behemoth later. I view Elves I guess as an Aggro combo deck. I played during the Extended era also known as Elf Ball but I do expect Delver, Miracles, D&T Stoneblade variations and BUG to be popular. I feel do to all the hate towards elves having a regular list with very little protection will be the downfall of the deck.

Which is why I try and stay away from the stock lists because I think they are going to face more pressure than one which someone is not prepared for. I run 3 Natural Order because I am the kind of guy who either will GSZ for a fattie or NO. I have hard casted my fatties recently without any cradle as well. I think the reason Elves is good is because it can easily fix itself if it fizzles, unlike many other combo decks. It has versatility and a lot of quickness.

I have decided to cut the 2 Chains from the SB for 2 Cabal Therapy. I think after reading Ross's article I am going to stick with needle over null rod. I guess it sucks if I get paired against a deck that Null Rod shuts down.

I am different and run my silver bullets in the main because that's my playstyle. I feel ooze is very good against Delver especially with gaining life, and I really like having the sage main, though I might change it to SB and put the 4th NO in.

Here's my SB as it is:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm/Elderscale Wurm (not sure)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Freyalise
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm (not positive on this one anymore)
1 Wren's Run Packmaster/Wilt Leaf Liege