Only issue I have with this statement is that getting to 4 mana vs. lands without a hitch. I also dislike Mentor against lands, I'm all for the Jace ulting out of the game plan to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa
Printable View
Only issue I have with this statement is that getting to 4 mana vs. lands without a hitch. I also dislike Mentor against lands, I'm all for the Jace ulting out of the game plan to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa
After step one and two you have exactly all the time in the world to find four mana and a jace. The matchup moves at a GLACIAL pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Finally got a chance to play again after the banlist update. Didn't have a lot of time to get things together, so my list was sub-optimal, but I did go 4-0 at our local. Was good to get some practice in before the SCG here on Sunday.
Here's what I played last night:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Pierce
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard (even more sketchy):
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Containment Priest
1 Baneslayer Angel
I beat RUG delver, Grixis Delver, Reanimator, and Monobrown Smokestacks?
It wasn't perfect, but this felt like a really good start. Feels great that nobody else can keep up in long games anymore :) Baneslayer is clearly wrong but I couldn't find Keranos or my 3rd Entreat in the 15 minutes I spent putting things together. From how that went, here's my plan for Sunday:
Maindeck: -1 Ponder, +1 Clique
Sideboard: -2 Wear // Tear, -1 Baneslayer Angel, -1 Rest in Peace, -2 Vendilion Clique +2 Disenchant, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Keranos, +1 Containment Priest, +1 Blood Moon.
I'm a little concerned about the lands matchup with this, but I don't have a lot of time to make more changes in 2 days anyway.
Your list seems solid. I have been trying the second Counterspell main deck opposed to 1 spell pierce and i just started running 2 Mentor main opposed to the clique. I like the second Counterspell im in the fence about Mentor in main still.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
As for side board. I wouldn't cut Rest in peace from your side. It has too great of an impact on the format. I would personally run 1 Surgical Extraction opposed to Relic. If you turn 0 Lands Life of the Loam. It really makes your day easier. Granted that's if they can't save it. But Rest in peace can hurt lands badly too. Not to mention how many other decks it hurts. BUG, dredge, anything running DRS and Goyf.
Question for you though. Why cut the Wear//Tears from your list?
If you're afraid of lots of mana denial, having to have red mana to cast Wear is a big downside. Wear // Tear can be a huge liability against Death & Taxes or against Delver variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
I have always believed this as well. But there are guys at my shop thar swear by Wear//Tear and how good it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by presquepartout
Granted i know it's amazing. But i always thought the exact thing you stated. It's not good if you can't cast it.
Doesn't it put blood moon in the same category too?Quote:
Originally Posted by presquepartout
What matches would you board in Blood Moon vs Wear/Tear?
that's why I have a double Disenchant in SB.
3 Pyroblast and 2 Blood Moons is all the red I want to see
(Running a list very similar to the above)Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
If Bloodmoon resolves, you don't need to worry about wasteland, so the calculus is different with that. I used to run 1 mountain and 1 volcanic, but the additional non-blue land is frequently a liability. I've changed to 3 volcanics lately, but that is not perfect either.
Wear/tear is superior to disenchant in the mirror, and the interaction with (your own) CB is great. Being forced to get volcanics to deal with null rods and needles vs delver decks is the trade off. Getting 2 for 1 practically never happens, but the ability to manipulate the cmc is huge in the mirror in the face of a resolved CB.
lol playing wear/disenchant vs the mirror.
Wear // Tear is perfectly fine for the mirror. It's amazing to float with a Top when you have CB in play. And when fused, it's a reasonable out to the CounterTop lock. I'd rather have Engineered Explosives in this latter situation, but given that so many cards can get cut, I almost always have room for Wear // Tear. Disenchant is a lot worse in the mirror.
Playing mirrors makes me want to quit legacy. Your opponent hitting blind with balances while you dont is some high level bullshit. yes im salty :mad:
I can understand your feeling. Such is the nature of Counterbalance in general really. As Miracle players we only get reminded of this in mirrors.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
For those who have been playing lists with Mentor, how is the card performing??? In talking with other miracle players there has been mixed opinion. Some say the banning of Dig Through Time has made the card significantly worse to the point where we shouldn't even play it in our sb probably. Others say it's still good enough to be played in the md still. Haven't been able to test much recently to answer this question of whether Mentor should be played in this new meta so if anyone has some play experience to answer this question do tell.
Please elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
There are a lot of bad cards to take out in the mirror (Swords to Plowshares, some number of Terminus, FoW is debateable). There aren't enough red blasts in the board to replace these cards, so I bring in W/T.
Now that DTT is banned, I feel like W/T makes even more sense in the mirror. The fuse mode can normally always be used, as at least one player is likely to have a top on the board.
Would you suggest keeping in all the FoW's to fight CB on the stack more aggressively?
Hello
in the last pages a few people talked about the burn matchup for a short time. This is a matchup where I would like to talk a bit further, because I am really not a bad player, I am playing Miracles for > 2 Years now, but I have not really good stats against burn. I for my self feel like it is under 50% for us. That could be, because I am boarding completely wrong. I talked to many, partially great miracle players, but almost everybody has a different plan on this matchup. Some take out Forces, some let all in, some take out removal, others not, some take out Jace/Entreat because they say you just need to CounterTop your opponent ASAP, some say card advantage of Jace is essential or racing with angels is the best plan. I have heared so many opinions on the matchup, that I am really confused what is the best way to go. So what are your opinons on this? I would like to discuss this in a bigger round, not always face to face, as I did it before.
Best regards and sorry for my (eventually) bad english
Freundla
You're correct that people sideboard for this matchup very differently. I can't speak for everyone else, but personally I agree that the key to this matchup is locking your opponent out. I usually end up taking out some number of terminus and the council's judgement for more counters. With people now playing exquisite firecraft some number of RIP may not be terrible either, because it stops it from being uncounterable and also it has the side benefit of blanking grim lavamancers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freundla
What you need to realize is: Burn only has a certain amount of gas and no way of refilling. your primary goal is to survive until then. That means dont take any unnecessary damage, every single damage matters. Therefore you want to overload on counters and removal. Sometimes its necessary to sword your own angel or clique to survive their last card which ususally is fireblast (Terminus counters it with CB).
Miracles lists and Burn lists certainly differ thats why there is no simple boarding guide. but taking cadei's latest list as an example my boarding is:
-3 JtMS (too slow, dies to bolt)
-1 Plains (one is enough)
-1 Volc (19 lands is enough, Volc deals 2 damage through pop)
-2 Mentor (you want to have mana open to counter things, flash creatures are better and more versatile, you rarely lose in the midgame because of a goblin guide or swiftspear and i would say its tough to race burn in the early game. Entreat does a better job and is alomst an instant win, lets you race vortex)
+3 Fluster (use early, on every possible target, bad in lategame)
+1 Wear (out against eidolon and vortex)
+2 Vendilion (instant speed wincon)
+1 Explosives (general removal, not great but necessary)
you should keep a hand with early removal and ways to find countertop (i wouldnt mulligan into counterbalance). The key spells are creatures and vortex. You dont lose to burn spells but to a guide or eidolon that deal 4+ damage. Fowing a turn one goblin guide or turn two eidolon isnt bad if you dont have removal. Use goblin guide as a cardadvantage tool. Fetch basics if possible or a single tundra if necessary. Fow is a necessary evil because 9 out of 10 times you cant race a vortex and need to counter it or have removal for it. concerning number of fow in this MU--> https://youtu.be/xuPSeFvXS90?t=5m00s.
Generally this is a slightly positive MU but can be anywhere from 40-55 percent depending on the decklists.
I was the original person who brought up burn. Since then I've had a little more experience with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freundla
It is mentioned above to being in Rest in Peace. I agree with this. Exquisite Firecraft hits hard and the uncounterable effect makes it dangerous.
Second, play like you would against Wasteland. Price of Progress is a card you can effectively Blank by fetching all basics. I personally run 6. 4 island 2 plains. One game my opponent had all 4 in hand at the end of the match but they didn't use them cause i had all basics and a couple fetches out. They didn't know how many basics i had so they didn't cast them. It was a bluff mind you and probably a misplay by my opponent. But still something that can happen.
Third, Don't take out all of your terminus. Not only is this a sweeper that you don't take damage from eidolon when you cast. But the most important reason i feel. It counters Fireblast. Ive lost a couple games because of late game Fireblasts.
Fourth, Be very careful with using top to draw. Most burn players I've found tend to hold back Pyroblast until you bounce top for a top deck, then they try and kill Counterbalance in response. They also do this when you fetch with no open mana.
Fifth, always assume your opponent has a loaded grip. Even late game. I've made the mistake of tapping low for entreat and Jace late game when i felt i had control, only to get burned out in response. I don't have an exact number. But you should probably have 4 extra open with a couple fetches to be safe. Like every other match. There is no rush as long as you have counter/top.
Sixth- Float a Wear/Tear if possible. This one card alone cancels most of their deck. Get a 3 drop for the second float then all you have to worry about is those pesky Fireblasts.
That's all i can think of right now. I've had pretty decent success with this mentality. But like always, is subject to the situation.
Against Burn
1. Float 2 and 6 using SDT when you don't have wear//tear. That means locking PoP, Eidolon, Fireblast. Use hard counter from your hand to stop the 3, that means Vortex and Rift Bolt.
2. Without CB-T early enough, you can certainly not win. With CB-T, you can still lose.
3. Don't try to play around everything. Your opening sometimes doesn't allow you to play around Price, getting value by delaying the killing of Guide is sometimes incorrect. If you try to play around/get value from everything, you're simply being too slow. If the Burn player has everything in his hand (explosive opening), that's not something we can control.
I just played in a small legacy tournament over the weekend running 2 Mentor main deck. I was on the fence about it for a while. But honestly running 2 i feel is key now. He just does so much work and increases your clock so well. Once CounterTop is established. He is safe to drop as early as turn 5 with open mana. This is huge. Granted he isn't great all the time. But against the mirror. Oh man he gets out of control quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
I'm starting to feel the 2 mentor main is now the stock version.
I didn't cut the 4th Terminus for mine though. I feel that is dangerous. I cut a Snapcaster and the second Entreat. While powerful; im starting to see Entreat being a liability requiring so much mana to cast. Now that daze and spell pierce are being played more. I found 1 being the right number. With this set up it gives you 6 wincons.
Interesting development, I'll try this the next time I see the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyout
I agree with decan's aproach against burn. Might even board 2nd disenchant effect because they have 6 targets (4 Eidolons and 2 Sulfuric Vortex).
Rest in Peaces without Energy Field sound super janky, Grims will still deal 1 damage and Exquisite Firecrat still deals 4. They could instead have Vexing Shushers and then your RiPs will look extra silly.
Lol @boarding rip against burn. That's like boarding out your best weapon which is snapcaster. And Rip doesn't have any immediate impact like it would against reanimate. Also you have to board in at least 2 better 3 to have a good chance of finding it IN TIME!
This whole thought process is just wrong and now I understand why some of you have problems against burn with such a plan in mind. This is almost null-rod-boarding-level.
Let's say your opponent hates losing against miracles and has like 3 firecraft. It's 3cmc and a sorcery, which means its slow and you can clique it away. Also people playing that card may improve their miracles matchup but lose too much ground against other decks. Consequently you are rather going to meet those players in round one or two and not in a match for top 8.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92685Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
Well, I went 4-3 at SCG Atlanta. Played against infect 3 times which seems like it was just really bad luck. I don't think its worth making a change for that matchup alone (went 1-2 vs it), but if anybody has ideas that don't waste slots, let me know
R1 - Goblins (W)
R2 - Infect (W)
R3 - RUG Delver (W)
R4 - Bant Infect (L)
R5 - BUG Delver (W)
R6 - Infect (L)
R7 - Jund (L)
Peacekeeper. He also shuts down merfolks, dredge, reanimator, sneak show, and goblins (even better if they side incinerators out g2 and 3). Ensnaring bridge is potent, but peacekeper is hardcore lock against infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I played against a burn player with firecraft and the threat was real. I had top/balance in play with a wear/Tear floating and he hit me with it twice. I went on to win with venser and karakas as my protection against further spells. Definitely a consideration in the matchup.
Welp! I guess decan's wrong because this one guy made top 16 at a PIQ!Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
But seriously though. Rest in Peace? Vs. Burn? I feel kind of silly responding to this, but if you are /that/ afraid of these cards, then by all means, please test it. I will never say no to more data. I fail to see how the intuition behind RIP falls in line with the strategy behind playing vs. Burn. Making an uncounterable spell counterable? Sacrificing tempo in the early game to hedge against a potential creature that can STILL be answered in a variety of ways by other cards in our postboard 60?
For constructive discussion:
decan, I personally am not a fan of Vendilion Clique in the matchup. The disruption it provides is good but not good enough, and if I want to finish the game I'd rather just have Mentor since it stops their creatures from attacking very very well while also absorbing a card in the case they kill it (which is more likely since there is more imperative to answer Mentor than there is to answer Clique). I could be very wrong about Vendilion Clique though, as it is still instant speed removal at times.
Looking at Angelo's list, the cards I'm not ecstatic about are:
2 lands, Mentor, JTMS, Terminus
Cards in the board I'm especially interested in:
3 fluster
1 ee
1 wt
So I'd probably end up cutting the 3 Jaces and 2 lands for those 5 cards. If 2x Clique is better than the 2nd and 3rd Terminii then I could see that swap as well. Actually, I don't like the 3rd Terminus at all, so I'd probably axe that for at least 1 Clique. It's probable that I'm undervaluing Clique's filtration in this MU and it might just be better than the 2nd Mentor.
Fwiw, Jon started off 0-2 and then rattled off 5 straight wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Mentor is excellent, as it closes the game out quick - That's what you want your win conditions to do in the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Also, people arguing RiP is fine to board in... What? You wan't removal for their Vortex, Eidelon as well as counter for their PoP/Fireblast (which is why you also leave in some number of Terminus, as they are both CMC 6).
Boarding RiP is about as sane as boarding Null Rod versus x.
I can't believe 445 pages into this thread the topic is how to beat burn. :confused:
I won 1 game against miracles with Firecraft + Ring. The other game included bolt+ bolt + bolt.....Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
I wanted to play 3 rings just to have % against miracles and it paid off.
Rip seems excessive.
I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.
In some versions of the deck I've boarded in Rest in Peace against Burn...
...to have another 2 to float with Top, not to actually put into play.
but....but this is supposed to be a joke, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ubernostrum
RIGHT?
Ring + Firecraft + Lavamancer is something.. But Snapcaster is too good ^_^
I didn't know the card Firecraft yet.. Damn, annoying..
Obviously keep fow in. Like how on earth are you not doing this.Quote:
Please elaborate?
There are a lot of bad cards to take out in the mirror (Swords to Plowshares, some number of Terminus, FoW is debateable). There aren't enough red blasts in the board to replace these cards, so I bring in W/T.
Now that DTT is banned, I feel like W/T makes even more sense in the mirror. The fuse mode can normally always be used, as at least one player is likely to have a top on the board.
Would you suggest keeping in all the FoW's to fight CB on the stack more aggressively?
Wear sucks because if cb resolves in the first place you are fucked. You absolutely don't want that card to hit the opposite side fo the table, period. Stack your deck with counters and flash creatures. Force the op to empty his hand of counters and then slam your own counterbalance.
That used to be a viable stategy, I think too, but with Wear//Tear, Counterspell, Snapcaster as well as Counterbalance (all on 2) I don't think that's as strong anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by ubernostrum
So, the fun story about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
At SCG St. Louis right after BNG released, I played the Legacy Open, and got paired against Burn round 2. Won game 1 pretty easily. Game 2, I had an extra slot after boarding out dead cards, and so brought in an RiP and had it floating. Countered a Price of Progress with it. Stabilized at 2 life.
Then the opponent drew a Barbarian Ring. And he had threshold. So he cracked the Ring, I activated Top in response and he said something like "if Counter/Top gets you out of this one I'll be really impressed".
As it turns out, my (not previously seen) third card down was a Snapcaster Mage, which I drew with Top and cast to flash back Swords to Plowshares on the Snapcaster, going up to 4. I then said "OK, Barbarian Ring activation resolves". Took the match 2-0.
(and then the wheels fell off about round 5, because I'd been on the judge staff Saturday for the epic eleven-round 763-player monstrosity of a Standard Open that ran that weekend)
which are the advantages of peacekeeper over Humility? The only one i can think of is it doesnt die to krosan grip (infect), since im guessing spell pierce is not a real thing from any of those decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
Humility, on the other hand, is much better vs reanimator.
Costing one less mana is a big advantage against Infect. You might not have the time to resolve a 4 CMC spell, especially through Daze. And some infect decklists do run 1-2 Spell Pierces. That said, Peacekeeper is not 100% game over. It can be killed by Berserk, and some lists do play Piracy Charm.
Personally, I've never felt that the Reanimator matchup needs something as drastic as Humility. I can't even recall the last time that I lost to Reanimator.