I think the question is 'if not that then what?' Mystic Crusader is the only thing I could see being better - it can reliably attack, but it's harder to turn on threshold with Mono-W.
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I think the question is 'if not that then what?' Mystic Crusader is the only thing I could see being better - it can reliably attack, but it's harder to turn on threshold with Mono-W.
What do you think of running a 1/1 Crusader/Paladin En-Vec split? I feel like ProR/ProB could be reasonable. Does not die to Push/Bolt and can block Angler for days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
That's what I'm trying to figure out. The answer might be that nothing is better. Mystic Crusader seems okay, but when you add the fact that you'll be siding in RiP in many of those matchups, it feels mediocre. It's also not a human for Cavern, for what that's worth. I'll keep testing things in the flex slots as I do my leagues. Mystic Crusader, Aerial Responder, and Paladin En-Vec are the next couple of things I'm going to toy around with. I don't think any of them are going to be great, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
It's also possible that the answer ends up being going back to an Avenger/Crusader heavy list and trying to close out the games quickly instead of dragging the games on with something that they can't kill.
I don't think Mystic Crusader is very good. It's not just bad with Rest in Peace - it's bad against any Deathrite Shaman deck. There is a reason why Nimble Mongoose isn't played anymore.
I'm currently testing a toolbox based human deck and it's great to have the option of having 1 Fiendslayer Paladin to search out, not just for the Grixis Delver/Control but against any deck dedicated to red removals like UR delver, Burn, Lands, etc. Of course the card isn't good against Angler or Pyromancer, but choosing between Paladin and Miran comes down to boardstate. This deck struggles with Pyromancer no matter what cards you play, until you start siding in things like Orzhov Pontiff and Holy Light.
Grixis Delver plays 4 bolt and 1-2 forked bolt, so if you really need a threat to stick, Paladin may be the better option. Against Czech Pile, Miran Crusader is the better card most of the time due to their lack of pure red removal spells. Take note that if any of these builds play Snapcaster Mage, you should consider the higher probability of Miran Crusader dying.
Story time. Decklist included at the end, criticisms for its construct very appreciated.
K2, my youngest 13yo son, attended a Sunday national side event of legacy that gives out a Underground Sea as top prize. This is a big deal in our small country as getting something like this sent in would incur taxes and thus more expensive. Because it's based here on our small hometown and most of the legacy players in the bigger cities usually don't take a flight down just for this, the attendance was low at 15 players but still 5 towns represented. For time consideration purposes it was left at 4 rounds but capped to top 4 elimination.
Very unfortunately due to work and related incidents I could not join him with omnishow to work towards the top as a team, so the mother fetched him and had to hit the brakes real hard at one stage on the way there, which resulted in a box tumbling forward from some part of the car.
[conversation in car]
Mum: "What's the sound? Can you find it?"
K2: (morning grumpiness)
Mum: "Do it already, cmon"
K2: "found it. purple box. dad must've left it there"
Mum: "ok bring it along"
K2: (grumbles)
Mum: "Do it! Just in case! And what's inside?"
K2: (looks inside, and quitely closes it and puts it in bag)
Turned out I accidentally left it there the day before, and it contained all the DnT support cards for both legacy and modern. So he was happy to bring it along after all.
[online chat]
Me: !@#!@%$!@$etcetc!@#!@$@! really angry about work and sorry I can't join you blah blah to compete for this as a blah blah blah
K2: Dad. The deck is wrong.
Me: What do you mean? It's the same list you used in GP Vegas 17!
K2: Add one more horizon
Me: ?!?! Are you sure? You had one in vegas, and I thought 2 was a lot. You'll lose quite a few points of life with 3?
K2: Meh. +1 Eigango
Me: 7 plains?! Blood moon against you?
K2: Don't want THC. Remove 1 Flickerwisp
Me: You putting sanctum?
K2: 4 mirrans, 3 serras
Me: Holy are you setting up a prison or are you being really aggro
K2: brb. Updating decklists.
[Game Report]
I got this really late last night and he was tired and had a headache and could not remember much. Because I wasn't there and there were no friendlies with him this is all I got:
R1: Dredge #1. Not quite a good player with it.
G1: Crushed him (newbie)
G2: He went off on turn 2
G3: tie (time, he played slow all the way)
(by this point K2 was really angry cuz round 1 tie due to time was due to opponent inexperience)
R2: BUG
G1: no FoW, toxic deluge, just attacked aggressively, mirran crusader + sword
G2: he controlled the board right from the start and won
G3: ate opponent for breakfast. sanctum prelate on 2 stopped abrupt decay, grindy but aggro'ed in
K2: "Fought BUG"
Me: "Oh? Chomp?"
K2: "Nomnomnomnomnom. Very close games though" (we have this running joke: he's always enjoyed winning against BUG. 100% match wins)
Me: "still. afternoon snack"
K2: "There's another DnT. 2 dredge. 1 Maverick. 1 Blade control. But a few were incomplete decks. Blade control had rattlechains and mausoleum wanderer. 1 of the dredge is playing amalgams, interesting."
K2: "OMG! Dredge #1 tied again!"
R3: POX.
G1: crushed opponent with superior board state
G2: opponent controlled right from the start
G3: hand had 1 plains, 1 aether vial, 5 threats. First 6 turns yielded no land, vial ticked up to 3 and stayed, and crew went off. Sanctum prelate to 1 to prevent pithing needle against vial which kept spitting out threats, and won.
R4: dredge #2
Risky ID: if dredge #1 wins, it's tiebreakers; decided not to play because he believed dredge #2 was a bad MU. Tested 2 games, lost 0-2
K2: "We're still waiting to hear who's #4"
Me: "Why the wait?"
K2: "Dredge #1 won the last 2 matches and got 8 points like me"
Me: "They don't have reporter so everything is on paper and therefore tiebreakers need calculators."
K2: (22 minutes later) "gtg I'm 4."
R5: dredge #2 same guy in R4
G1: opponent was landless, didn't take off in time. Mirran and gang went in fast.
G2: he mulls to 4, so was behind by at least 4 turns and the white guys went in fast.
R6: Lands. Don't have decklist but choose any Tier 1 deck out there with a tabernacle.
G1: exiled/bounced avatar 6 times with swords and flicker wisp and karakas etc; wastelands was never drawn; opponent could not win with 6 cards left in deck. Picked up library, look through cards there, and scooped. 1 hour 15 minute game.
G2: almost died to tireless tracker and ate avenger, mom with jitte and its counters; 3 mazes of ith. Avatar, sword, Avatar, exile, meanwhile his creatures chewed 5-8 life at a time, flicker one ith away just to squeeze more than 8 damage at one stage. RiP was in play ultimately and opponent ran out of wincons, and scoops. 45 minute game. Was close as K2 had only 5 cards in library but board state was enough to finish opponent off, and walks home with a trophy and underground sea.
Post game:
K2: "Tabernacle is soooooo OP. Had to pay so much. Also, the Mystic Crusader was useless"
Me: "Ok thanks for experimenting. Sorry last night we had no time to customize together"
K2: "Judges for finals noted 6 times the avatar was plowed"
Me: "Did you just chew away more than 120 points of damage for the finals?"
K2: "It happens. Online I played against lands, and it went for 45 minutes. Didn't lose, but we left the game as it took too long"
Me: "I looked him up. He's a serious player from a much bigger town so he's a much more experienced player"
K2: "He got 1 warning. And misplayed once"
Mum: "The stars aligned. (1) First, you needed to accidentally leave the box in the car. (2) I nearly had to get into an accident. (3) The box had to tumble out. (4) He had to look at the contents after being pushed. (5) Close tie breakers to top 4 (6) Luck on his side R5 opponent didn't have a good hand as dredge"
Spectator LGS good player: "aw mate it was a fully sick match. he's probably told you all about it but he played professionally."
Me: "You know that the thesource is talking about 22 lands for 27 creatures, right? Lots of discussion, reasons, results, track records, experiences...."
K2: "OMG no....disgree...golden rule for DnT modern and legacy is 23 lands..."
[Mainboard]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo castle
7 Plains
[Sideboard]
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Council's Judgment
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mystic Crusader
Thanks for the read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Errata'd to human actually.
Neat! That's a good one to get people with on paper...Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
If I understand correctly, Ixalan rules changes (legendary planeswalkers) now allow us to bounce animated Gideons with Karakas, right?
Certainly reads that way, I'm more interested in what decks will come up and use the fact that you can now have different versions of the same planeswalker in play at the same time (eg: Liliana of the Veil and Liliana the Last Hope)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
Except that Karakas was long ago errata'd to only bounce legendary creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by J ♥ 5
It may allow us to bounce an ANIMATED Gideon, which will become a creature and now have the legendary supertype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosque
@rostov
Great post. Congrats to your son.
Not sure I would have the hutzpah to play that main list, but it certainly looks aggressive.
@everyone
What is the state of DnT builds in your opinion?
It seems like the options are WW and RW at the larger level, but within WW there is some division over aggression vs control vs splitting the middle (this is not a new dilemma per se, but it seems to be coming up again, so something in the meta is sparking it, right?)
The core has not, AFAIK, changed:
22 lands
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 additional (plains, Canopies, Caverns, man lands, etc.)
29 Spells
4 thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
4 StP
4 Aether Vial
2 Flickerwisp (I am tempted to say 3, but i can't imagine not running 4)
2 Recruiter of the Guard (a new staple?)
2 Phyrexian Revoker (2 seems to the be the minimum)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SFI
That's 51 fixed slots and 9 available slots 9/0 or 8/1 on spells/lands, depending.
rostov's son K2 ran a very aggro list with 7 Serra/Crusaders and a Palace Jailer.
phyrexianProvoker on MTGSalvation ran a very control-heavy list with 1 Aven Mindcensor, 1 Banisher Priest, +2 Flickerwisp, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Sanctum Prelate, 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Path to Exile for his 9 spells and his 4 added lands, 1 Ghost Quarter, 1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Plains.
Medea_'s list falls in between.
Is it metagame broadly, or is this just about what you expect to see locally vs. the big event broad meta? Thoughts?
My list is basically the stock list thats pretty close to what Medea run's with -3 Plains, +3 Flagstones of Trokair maindeck and -2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar -2 Surgical Extraction +2 Cataclysm +1 Grafdiggers Cage +1 Sanctum Prelate sideboard. I arrived at the maindeck after tinkering around with the slots that I do not consider set in stone, such as the last Flickerwisp, the Crusaders, the Avengers and the last Revoker I arrived at the stock list independently. I think that if you completely optimize the deck for the general metagame right now, thats the 60 that I believe are optimal. The changes people make to make the deck better in specific matchups tend to make the deck lose more against other decks than I am comfortable with in my opinion. I would rather have the deck be close against everything than to polarize my matchups. I value that type of consistency a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
That being said, if I'm running at a small local event where I know a good number of the people who are showing up, I'll run something more targeted, I.E. with a second Sanctum Prelate maindeck if I'm expecting a lot of combo, or 6 Graveyard hate spells if I'm expecting a bunch of storm and reanimator, or 3 Crusaders maindeck if I'm expecting BUG and Czech pile. In a less open field you can definitely capitalize on a narrower metagame by correctly predicting what is going to be there and applying pressure in the correct spots.
Off topic, but I swear Medea was throwing shade at me for running masterpiece Vial's. Whats the general consensus on which Vial art to run? I love my brownish border Vial's personally!
Right, I somehow only read the Liliana part and filled in the blanks, whoops. Of course yes it does the Gideon bouncing if he's a creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
You aren't wrong. The art isn't bad, but the original Vial art has a special place in my heart. I have MM ones on MTGO because I optimized my cart and that's what happened; that's also how I got those terrible Masterpiece Containment Priests. Ick.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
@redtwister
I think the WW shell is pretty stable, at least as stable as it has ever been. Like always, there's the debate about the last couple of flex slots, but things are largely static at this point. A few of us have been experimenting in the last couple of slots, but we keep coming back to the same things.
Can someone knowledgeable talk briefly about why only the Wr lists consider playing Chalice of the Void? For example, it seems to me that the change from 4 StP, 4 Plains, 2-3 Flex Slots to 4 Chalice, 4 Cavern, 2-3 Blessed Alliance could happen even in the WW list. Has anyone tried it? Or is there some convincing theoretical reason that the WW list couldn't make the shift to Chalice?
Most lists that play chalice are doing a colorless version, with maybe dishing out Thalia HC with Ancient Tomb or playing Eldrazi stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham
Chalice is a lot better if you can combine it with cavern of souls and ancient tomb. I think a turn 1-2 card that greatly strengthens all the bad match-ups, most combo decks, any deck with cantrips/removals, etc. are worth playing but most people here are against the idea. Chalice is good not only in the early game but also late game at x=2 and x=3, while you are able to cast your spells through aether vial or cavern of souls (though you need a human dedicated build). The decks you'll miss having StP in are the non-elves creature based match-ups but a resolved chalice crushes many of these decks.
So the Blessed Alliance monstrosity was my brew. I think I've got at least one version of that up on the decklists tab of my site; if it isn't, you can find a version in SCG's database from some team event or another in Roanoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham
It was an offshoot of a deck that Bahra was playing at the time, which had Dismember or no removal in the BA slot instead. I was worried about the combination of Ancient Tomb and Dismember being too hard on the life total, which is why I dropped it. It had the upside of being better against TNN and Marit Lage, but worse against DRS and Young Pyromancer. Maxing out on Cavern to push cards through Chalice made the splash close to free. It's not that it couldn't be a monowhite deck, it's just that there was little cost to not splashing given the direction things were going. At the time, Elves was the expected top dog, so the splash cards and Chalice combined actually made for a positive Elves matchup, a real rarity for a D&T deck.
This was separate from an Ancient Tomb D&T deck Enevoldson was working on at the time. He had some stuff like Displacer and THC in the main. His Chalices were in the board He's Scaabs on MTGO, so you can probably find the list pretty easily.
A question for everyone. I have 5 cards to board in versus True-Name Grixis Delver which is getting more popular playing 2 True-Name and 2 Gurmag. They are 2 Judgment, 2 Path, and 1 more Sanctum Prelate in addition to the one main. Using Medea's main deck as a guide, what 5 cards do you board out? I worry I may not be boarding correctly and want others thoughts on the matter. I'll hold off on what I board out because I wanna hear others opinions without any influence of how I already board.
My plan is 3 Revoker 1 Mirran Crusader. If I want to bring in the second Prelate, I'd drop the second Crusader. I don't usually bring it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
I'm testing this list:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
(22 lands)
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains (I will not play less than 10 plains with 22 lands total)
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre (maybe I look "alternative" right now, but I prefer these over surgicals)
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
Maybe I will side like WashableWater1
On the play I used to side out sofi because it's often the second or third choise with mystic. Usually the main problem is to keep life points up, so you keep batterskull or/and jitte.
Is this with or without DRS? If so, then you can cut all three Revokers. If they do have Deathrite, leaving one in in fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
I am actually not a huge fan of Prelate here, unless this is version that is completely dependent on one-mana spells. They often have ways to kill things at different mana costs, it often doesn't come down until they have already set up, and the Grey Ogre stats make it fairly useless in combat. The other big issue is that this is presumably there to set on one, but you are boarding in extra Path to Exile. Tread carefully here.
If they are heavy on red removal, you can trim a Mirran Crusader, but you want access to at least one one. Its great with equipment and brickwalls Angler, but just dying to Forked Bolt all the time is bad.
Another thing to keep in mind is what you expect them to do post-board. You often have to deal with things like Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental. Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Flickerwisp are all quite good in the matchup, but it can also be fine to hedge against the -1 effects by trimming one of a few of your 1 toughness creatures. This is another strong point of Mirran Crusader, because its one of the few respectable creatures even after the minus.
Also keep in mind that it can actually be fine to trim a Plow or two when bringing in Path, as Path is just a strict upgrade here but you might not actually need a full 8 removal spells depending on the situation. Against something like Eldrazi or Infect when all you want to do is kill creatures you just want as many one-mana spells as possible, but against more interactive decks it can be better to have more utility (and you can get stuck with a hand of 2 or 3 Plows and Paths against a True Name).
Not sure about the exact configuration of you opponents deck or what else is in your deck or sideboard, but if you put a gun to my head and made me give you a TL:DR based on your short summary, then:
-3 Revoker, -1 Prelate
+2 Path, +2 Judgment
question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent
and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?
in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..
greets
Many games SoLaS does nothing at all, so it's often as bad as an uncastable Batterskull. 22 vs 23 lands is not be a substantial factor in determining whether Batterskull should be in the main deck. It's one of the few cards like Flickerwisps that can pull you out of a losing board state because the lifelink is substantial.Quote:
Originally Posted by heyoka
Batterskull wasn't added to the deck to combat Eldrazi. It adds flexibility to Stoneforge Mystic, allowing it to be significantly more threatening and representing a more mana efficienct recurring threat. When you cut Batterskull, Stoneforge no longer can be a 4/4 vigilance lifelink.Quote:
Originally Posted by heyoka
SoLaS is also a very weak replacement. It serves a similar function to SoFi, but is significantly more situational. Each can get you +1 card, but SoLaS requires there to be a useful creature in the yard and then to not have an active DRS. It's also only +2 damage compared to +4 for all the other equipment. It's in general a poor card that is good only in specific matchups.
22 lands is the consensus now?
Way back in time, when thomas won his first GP with D&T, the stock list had 23 lands with Batterskull and the need for mana to operate ports.
I'm still using 23 lands and still having mana problems from time to time. I also use 2 Canopies to have some card draw if i draw too many lands...
The difference between 22 and 23 lands is not going to be easy to make out by playing games. You'll get stuck with 23 lands and flood with 22. I believe that the optimal number with a stock list is slightly more than 23. 22 will still be fine, just slightly suboptimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
23 is the safer play over a large number of games, imo.
Using this baseline strategy implemented at https://repl.it/IXTG/40:
* For 7-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 2-5 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
* For 6-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 2-4 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
* For 5-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 1-4 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
You get:
23 lands, 15 W:
- Distribution of keepable hand sizes
- 4 card keeps: 0.0025
- 5 card keeps: 0.0240
- 6 card keeps: 0.0964
- 7 card keeps: 0.8771
- Playable Flickerwisp
- Turn 3 - 0.6835
- Turn 4 - 0.8937
22 lands, 14 W:
- Distribution of keepable hand sizes
- 4 card keeps: 0.0032
- 5 card keeps: 0.0273
- 6 card keeps: 0.1035
- 7 card keeps: 0.8660
- Playable Flickerwisp
- Turn 3 - 0.6424
- Turn 4 - 0.8747
So if you drop from 23 lands to 22 lands you will get "punished" in the following ways:
* You will be forced to mulligan your 7s when you otherwise would not have in 1% of games
* You will be unable to cast 1WW spells on turn 3 when you otherwise would not have in 4% of games
* You will be unable to deploy 1WW creatures by turn 4 when you otherwise would have in 2% of games
I play 24 lands FWIW like Bahra did. It is a tradeoff, but we have so many mana sinks (equipment especially Batterskull, port, wasteland) that I don't really have any desire to shave more and more lands. There is a real cost to doing so. :/
Hey, what is everyone's thoughts on playing Vials into/around Daze? I had a situation where I was on the draw against U/R Delver, he led on Swiftspear and I played my Vial and got it Dazed. I ended up losing the game, and was not sure if I should have waited to play the Vial. My thinking was that Vials are great and I should try to keep one around, but U/R Delver's clock is fast enough that if I fall behind, a late Vial would not help me catch up.
There's no way getting around it. For all you know, you could be playing around a hand that doesn't have any counterspells or you'll just face a Force of Will regardless of whether you play it turn 1 or turn 2. You play the vial and hope it sticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tovarisch
I think playing 24 lands is reasonable but should really be paired with things like Horizon Canopy, considering this deck can flood so easily. Death and Taxes has raised its mana curve significantly since the addition of Conspiracy cards.
Thanks for those numbers Chris, I think they confirm what most of us who have played thousands of games have internalized. That said - it's not like playing more land is 100% upside either - there will be games where having more land makes you flood out, it's just much harder to put a number on those. But still - legacy is fast and missing land drops early is a common way to lose against basically everyone. I think playing lots of utility lands and not going overboard on basic Plains is a good way to hedge.
On playing vs Daze - I generally prefer to make them have it, especially g2/3 when they may have sided them out. Vs. UR Delver in particular, waiting a turn to play Vial means that you won't be able to Vial in a two drop until...3 turns from now? The game might not even last that long. In other cases you may be able to afford to play around Daze (e.g. they're doing nothing and have a handful of cards) or you can cast your less important spell first. But in general giving tempo decks a free Thalia effect all game is not a solid strategy.
I agree. you cannot afford to play around daze. playing around it will be good 50 percent of the time only.
Usually the strength of daze is that people play around it even if you don't have it. Just don't give the blue player that advantage.
You should perhaps mulligan more aggressively hands with 1 land and vial with 3 drops.
The only games you can afford to play around Daze on your vial are ones where you aren't facing enough pressure for the extra turn to matter. A Plow-heavy mana light hand is a good example of one that can, or a game against Daze Miracles.
Has anyone that's been looking for a 1WW card that's good against Delver and Czech Pile considered Kitchen Finks? It seems both removal resistant, tutorable, decent at swinging a race, and good with Flickerwisp. I might throw a couple in a build to see how they perform. The Deathrite problem seems real, and the dissynergy with RIP is also awkward, but I think it seems worth a shot.
Are we really that unfavored against delver and 4C czech pile?Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
Verdict is kind of out on Grixis Delver but based purely on statistics, the 'average' player is not favored to win. Czech Pile is definitely unfavorable because they have all the removal spells in the world and a bunch of 2-for-1s. I remember reading somewhere on reddit that Bahra considers it difficult for DnT to be dominant in this meta due to all the cabal therapies, fatal pushes, and kolaghan's command and these are not even sideboard hate. In addition to this, I would say the main problem is the mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
I definitely consider Death and Taxes to be the aggressor in these two match-ups. You want them to durdle around with cantrips while you beat them down and hope to accumulate enough card advantage with Stoneforge. If you have a slow start with no Aether Vial or stuck on lands, it's pretty much game over because they can remove your creatures 1-for-1 while beating down with their own. It's hard to mana denial Grixis when they can operate entirely on 1-mana cantrips and Deathrite Shamans and without Aether Vial, you should almost never attempt a turn 2 Wasteland/ Port and take time to develop your own board. My experience is it's often not worth it to StP a Deathrite and save it for Delver/ Pyromancer/ Gurmag.
Playing against a competent player with Czech Pile feels hopeless. Grixis is also pretty hard.
As for the Vial vs. Daze debate, I always run out a Vial turn 1 whether they have countermagic or not, as it's too good if it sticks. If it gets Forced then that's one less counterspell to get your Thalia or SFM next turn, if it gets Dazed then at least you set them back a mana for next turn (you are a taxing deck, after all). That being said, I'd be hesitant to keep a hand that depended on Vial if I was playing against a Daze deck, such as Port, Wasteland, Vial, and four creatures, because losing that Vial means your hand is crap.
Grixis Delver feels very dependent on familiarity with the matchup. While there are definitely games where mana denial is bad, or where you shouldnt Plow a Deathrite, being able to read the situation and know when to go for the throat is pretty key. I wouldnt say that you play the aggressor, but you need to be able to win the game before they just burn you out. Overall it feels quite close to even to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker
Czech Pile can feel very bad, but in my experience is actually close to even or favorable. As with Delver, mana denial is hit or miss, so knowing when to use it is difficult. K Command is always good, but it is possible to play as to prevent it from being great. Solid sideboarding makes the matchup feel like one that I'm happy to face off against.
Both of these decks to me feel quite close to even, but even still it seems worth it to explore options that can promote the matchup from even to favorable. A lot of people have been posting about creatures that line up well against the specific removal that these decks pack, but many of those cards are pretty lackluster in other matchups. My interest in exploring Kitchen Finks is that it seems like it solves some of the problems that I have with these matchups while not being overspecialized.
I mean you have to read the situation - these are just general guidelines for what you should do. By all means StP the Deathrite Shaman if you see your opponent miss a 2nd land drop and shuffle their scry, with wasteland backup. In general, the games DnT wins against Grixis is when they win the tempo race with Thalia and Aether Vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
Not sure how Czech Pile could be favorable. You're speaking in very general terms right now (e.g how can you make K-Command great to good? It's an inherent 2-for-1 card, you have no hand information, and you cannot win this match-up by playing too conservatively). What's your definition of a solid sideboarding?
We can discuss Kitchen Finks. Its lifegain is irrelevant against Czech Pile but has uses against Grixis Delver. It doesn't match up well against the key threats offensively or defensively: gurmag angler, true-name, Leovold (can be okay but only before persist trigger), young pyromancer, baleful strix. And I can't think of a match-up aside from the classic creature based aggro (burn, merfolk, goblins) where this card is good. A lot of the other cards discussed here like Restoration Angel or even Fiendslayer Paladin have more versatility here. For example, Angel gets around a lot of removals and attacks over Leovold/ TNN and surprise block Delver. Paladin-en Vec is also a pretty good card as it blocks and gets protected from most of those threats; it's less versatile but more powerful than Fiendslayer against Grixis and Czech Pile.
You make K command less good by always thinking about which modes they would use on the board. Playing patiently so that they have to make you discard, or have to just tap a mom, or wait until you have vial on 3. Why isn't the matchup bad? Although they play a lot of removal and maindeck artifact destruction, they're still playing a pretty slow 4 color blue deck with a bunch of 3 drops and cantrips. That offers you a lot of angles to apply pressure, such as keeping them off colors or developing a board while they pay 2 mana to cantrip. They only have a couple huge threats, Jace and Gurmag. They're very weak to Rest In Peace. They're extremely weak to Cataclysm. It's even because it comes down largely to how well then half of the deck you drew counters the half of deck they drew.Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker
Why I like Finks against Czech Pile is because many games that I've played where you have a SoFi or SoLaS in play and who wins comes down to drawing one more creature than they draw removal spells. Kitchen Finks acts as 2 creatures in this game. It is weak to Deathrite and to Snapcaster, but I'm just sitting throwing ideas out there. I like a lot of what Kitchen Finks does bring to the table. I think that looking for the best White Knight is barking up the wrong tree. Attacking for 2 a turn vs 3 a turn is huge. In matchups that aren't Czech or maybe Delver for the lifelink Knight, you'll be playing a 3 mana 2/2. It will be the worst card in your deck by far. Mirran Crusader is great because at worst he attacks for 4. Playing a significantly weaker creature to beat 1 or possibly 2 bolts does not seem good enough to me. I've also been running into way more edicts than I used to, which sort of takes away that one reason you ran a Knight (it's unkillable). I would sort of like a better threat against Delver, but I've yet to figure out what it is.
What I mean by solid sideboarding is having a sideboard beat with Czech Pile in mind and not falling into card evaluation traps. I initially was sideboarding like I was playing a creature light midrange deck, leaving in 2 plows etc. it's pretty tough to suss out how good certain cards are, such as I'm still not sure if Revoker is good and Serra Avenger is bad, or if Councils Judgement isn't actually terrible. The traps that I've seen people fall into are playing Palace Jailer against Czech, or even bringing it in. I've put Gideon's in my sideboard because I thought they were going to be slam dunks that solved the creature problem. Im really happy with my current sideboard plan, but I'm not sure if it's actually optimal.