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Yeah!Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
I have been on the same track as Lilliana doesn’t really help in our more difficult matchups, where Additional GSZ/targets and the combo can.
But.....
You lose the ability to kill TNN and Delve Creatures game 1. Which I guess is kind of a big deal, but most delver/delve/TNN decks are sweet matchups.
I have a couple of simple questions about the deck.
1. Why did the deck go away from playing Deathrite Shaman? I understand the nonbo with Chalice but my experience has been that chalice gets forced/removed often and you can GSZ a lot of times for DRS with chalice in play.
2. What is the lowest you can go on land count and still run 4 moxes? I see some lists run as many as 27 lands, is that more to accommodate the red splash rather than count for moxes?
3. I currently run a junk version missing a couple of pieces. Here is a blue splash version I am thinking of building:
Creatures:13
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Ramunap Excavator
Spells:22
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
Lands:25
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
Is the creature count too high in the above? Would this deck fair similarly to the standard 4 color loam list against a meta of miracles, infect and burn? I have an Underground Sea burning a hole in my card box and I am trying to find an excuse to use it in a deck. I apologize my couple of simple questions turned into several!
I used to run DRS and still do from time-to-time. The reality is that this list is so tight that there are only so many flex spots. I've found that I'd rather have something like Ramunap to recur wastelands/cabal pits or Toxic Deluge to fight against TNN or other creatures I may need a silver bullet/board wipe for. DRS just doesn't do all that much for us - punishing fire gives us the same inevitability that DRS would otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vervandi
I run 27. Used to do 26 before I ran cabal pit. 25 is likely too low, but only testing will tell.Quote:
2. What is the lowest you can go on land count and still run 4 moxes? I see some lists run as many as 27 lands, is that more to accommodate the red splash rather than count for moxes?
The only thing the blue is buying you is Leovold, and I just don't see it being necessary in this list. Yes, Leovold is an insane magic card. However, legit question: at what time do you plan on searching him up with a GSZ? And why are you getting him over a Knight? I can't really think of any situations where I'd rather have Leovold over Knight given our deck composition.Quote:
3. I currently run a junk version missing a couple of pieces. Here is a blue splash version I am thinking of building:
Creatures:13
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Ramunap Excavator
Spells:22
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
Lands:25
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
Is the creature count too high in the above? Would this deck fair similarly to the standard 4 color loam list against a meta of miracles, infect and burn? I have an Underground Sea burning a hole in my card box and I am trying to find an excuse to use it in a deck. I apologize my couple of simple questions turned into several!
Edit: I see now your list only has 1 cycle land, which I think is a huge mistake.
Dmkay,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I do have a couple of follow up questions...
1. How many cycle lands do you run? A pair consisting of Thicket and Moor?
2. Have you tested the newer cycle lands like Scattered Grove?
3. Would Barbarian Ring be worth running in addition to or as a replacement to Cabal Pit in 4 - color loam.
4. You mention the list being tight, is that why there is not much recent discussion on this deck? Is it essentially "solved" to the point that making changes breaks the deck?
1. Yes, 1 each of Moor/ThicketQuote:
Originally Posted by Vervandi
2. I haven't
3. Sure - some people run Ring over Pit. I haven't personally done it, but it's definitely an option
4. Probably somewhat. It's not that it's solved, it's just that if you deviate too far from the list you're no longer really the original deck. There was some "discussion" earlier around what we would do if KotR wasn't in our decks. But many people pointed out that it doesn't work that way - we'd be on a different deck if KotR wasn't around. There are flex spots for sure. You could not run the liliana package and run depths/stage combo and additional hate bears or deluges or something.
It's entirely possible that Leovold is sick in this deck. My question was genuine though - when would you want to GSZ for that over any other creature? That's the real question. If there aren't enough scenarios, then I'd rather have a utility creature that actually impacts certain match ups (like Qasali Pridemage or Reclamation Sage).
My line of thinking was that it may be good against decks that run brainstorm, ponder etc. But if you're GSZ for him and it's not countered, I guess the argument could be made that if you were going to stick Leovold in those situations, Knight is an actual win con you are sticking.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmkay
I think I am just going to build the stock list. I've not had a chance to play with Punishing Fire yet so I don't know what I'm missing. Then after I am comfortable with the deck, I'll do so some tweaking. Trying to make a variant of the deck at this point I think is just me trying to be a special snowflake since I don't have competence with the true list yet.
People don’t really like deviating from winning lists. So unless you can win in a big even with your changes, you most likely will not get a positive response from the internet.
I have been experimenting with Tracker over Knight, no red, no black, and it is all very meta dependent. The deck usually has players when Chalice is good, and the support falls off when Chalice isn’t. With K. command everywhere, Chalice has a main board opposition running rampant in the meta.
If you want to discuss stranger things and broader changes, PM me. I am currently 6-2 in a legacy league with a Naya Renegade Rallier list.
So true it hurts.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Anyway, I'm not sure where OP got the idea that DRS isn't played anymore. I imagine it wasn't in the last placing list, or something. The card is perfectly reasonable to play and plenty of people still do. In fact I would say it is
not just some silver bullet, but core to how the deck functions. 4c Loam is operating at a (slightly) higher mana curve than the rest of the format to gain the benefits that 2-3drops provide over their 1drop equivalents (I'm simplifying here). In order to not be 1 turn behind our opponents we want mana acceleration. The best card by far for this is Mox diamond, as it doesn't cost us our third turn. The alternative to Mox is Green Sun's Zenith. DRS provides another piece of ramp making a larger percentage of our hands playable (without being a turn behind)
I had a friend who pretty stubbornly tested Scattered Grove (or another in the cycle). It was worse than a proper cycle land almost every time. The only real benefit is bumping up our red sources, which isn;t really a problem anyway.
The deck is not "solved" in the way that RUG delver was a solved deck, but there is a core. The reasons for inactivity are that some of the discussion now happens on the facebook group, but mostly that the deck does not have the playerbase needed to generate enough results for competing "stock lists" to gain momentum. That's my theory anyway. Either way, most players just pick a list that has shown results and there isn't a lot of effort to change.
I'd also caution you against non-green fetches in a base green deck with a basic forest and a dryad arbor.
Lavafrogg, that's very generous of you to offer to discuss the deck with me more. You mentioned no black, do you run more libraries for card draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
apocolyps6, I was just going by mtgtop8. There hasn't been a copy of DRS in a list within the last two months on that site. Is there another source(s) to get deck data? It's a shame that more people don't play the deck. There is something very satisfying about playing life from the loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
The best place to start on a list with no black would be to google Naya Loam and read the two part article over on the Salt Mine. I started from there and catered the list to my own meta. You lose Bob but gain Goyf which both have their own pros and cons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vervandi
Personally I am a huge fan of 3 libraries and 2 loams because library is such an important card in so many matchups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
This is all true. I recently placed 19th (9-2) at Eternal Weekend Legacy Champs with this list:
Creatures: 11
4x Grim Flayer
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
Spells: 10
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
Enchantments: 2
2x Sylvan Library
Artifacts: 8
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
PlanesWalkers: 3
3x Liliana of the Veil
Lands: 26
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Tranquil
1x Barren Moor
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard: 15
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thoughtseize
2x Choke
1x Golgari Charm
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Engineered Plague
1x Krosan Grip
1x Zuran Orb
About 2 weeks before the tournament I was playing some modern to help a friend playtest, and I realized that Grim Flayer would be way better than Dark Confidant in my old Loam list. That was my main inspiration for bringing this to Pittsburgh (as opposed to some BUG mid-range that I usually run in big events). I also made a meta call that there would be a lot of delver, and I feel like I almost can't lose against delver with this list.
I was vindicated on both fronts. Played against delver at least 4 times and never broke a sweat. Grim Flayer was a house in some key match-ups, as Dropping 2 mana 4/4s mid to late game against Eldrazi and some other fair decks was huge. I also went 3-0 vs combo beating storm twice and Show and tell once. My only losses were to a Grixis control deck featuring Badlands, Liliana, and Kologhan's command, and a rogue UB fairies tempo deck where I drew like shit.
Overall very pleased and I think we're well positioned right now.
I've read through this thread including your discussion and even the salt mine article. I've scoured the net for every piece of loam knowledge I can find while I slowly build this deck piece by piece each week. I think if I could cut any color, I'd want to cut red because I have the mana base for junk but no groves or taiga. The thing I am struggling with is finding inevitability without red. I run the dark depths combo in my incomplete junk shell, and sometimes it is really amazing and wins games on the spot. Other times, it's a 20 life swords to plowshares magnet and sets me back a couple of land drops. I also thought about Collective Brutality, but one of the things that's appealing about Punishing Fire is that it is so reusable! When I watch loam matches on Youtube, I'm reminded time and time again how powerful Punishing Fire can be as the Loam player often uses it to turn the corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I am currently working on a list that cuts red but at this point, Punishing Fire is better than the meta. I believe there can be a version that gets to play Lilliana and the combo without fires, but you most likely have to play 4 Liliana to be able to burn the first 1-2 and lock the game down with #3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vervandi
Hobart,Quote:
Originally Posted by hobart
Congratulations on the finish! Do you miss the card draw at all going from Dark Confidant to just the Sylvan Libraries? I noticed you're not running Toxic Deluge. Were there times you wish you had one at least in the sideboard or is Tabernacle enough in those situations?
I'll be honest, I tried for a long time to answer this with a more insightful rationale, but it's as simple as this: I don't think LOTV is very good at the moment. All of the Snapcaster Mage/Baleful Strix decks of the format make her edict effect look silly, and you're almost never going to hit the creatures you care about in a world where DRS is in half the decks you play against.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Is Ramunap Excavator necessary for the deck? There aren't list with horizon canopy, and I prefer 90% of the time draw a toxic deluge or a liliana the last hope istead of him. Even Tireless Tracker seems better than Excavator to me.
Being able to recur cabal pit, wasteland, or ghost quarter without a loam (or even just when you don't want to dredge because you need to find more/better action) is pretty good. Also being able to jam Dryad Arbors forever to chump is fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldrazi Grandfather
I wasn't super impressed with last hope when I played her. I quickly realized that getting a creature from the graveyard, while nice, isn't really necessary. Punishing fire gives you all the inevitability you need, even if it feels slow.
There are obviously matchups and situations where one card will feel better than another.
I do like Toxic Deluge too (and there's probably a different card you could cut to fit it in), but it doesn't lock out games the way infinite wastelands can.
Excavator is there so you can GSZ for a Loam effect. He is just a silver bullet utility creature, but in top deck mode/late game/when you are ahead/when you are even... he is a god.
Setting up recurring wastelands, removal, or card draw is amazing, but obviously not good in every scenario... so I play one.
Matsole beating a league at 5-0 again. I still keep wondering about the Ajani Vengeant and in this case the Liliana, the last hope.
2 nov list
Is the 4C Leovold a 50/50 MU? I have lost every time I've faced it :eyebrow:
This is my sideboard plan vs 4C/Grixis control;
On the play:
-1 gaddock
-1 confidant
-2 chalice
-1 mox
+1 choke
+1 chandra
+1 reclamation sage
+2 thalia
On the draw:
-4 chalice
-1 gaddock
+1 choke
+1 chandra
+1 reclamation sage
+2 swords to plowshares
Is this scheme right?