Printable View
And by anything, you mean you hope they don't have an active DRS? This is my main beef with Witness now. The card's great against grindy decks, but against DRS, not so much, unless you're recurring non-instant, sorcery, land, or creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by dballard
-Matt
New list I'll be trying Thursday:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas (but this may become Savannah #2 in my local meta, since no one plays Sneak or Reanimator)
3 Wasteland (or 2 Waste 1 Ghost Quarter)
1 Maze of Ith
23
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
15
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Garruk Relentless
23
I could cut 2 cards to fit in Liliana of the Veil, but that would most likely be Swords #4 and a random, but I don't REALLY want to cut anything. I cut an Inquisition for the 4th Swords, and an Ooze for the Loam. The loam has definitely done work, even if you only get to use it once; it's VERY handy for bringing back Wastes.
The basic Plains has been really sore the past few times. I've drawn it and it's been a do-nothing for the last little while. I know I like being able to cast EVERY spell in the deck off basic lands for stability, but it's actually been ridiculously unreliable as of late. I got to do some brewing with some friends and we talked about cutting the basic Plains for another Forest or a Savannah. The deck's outs to Blood Moon rely on having BG (or BGx), so I think that's where I want to be at the moment. This also came up when I sat down to do the mana-math to recheck my distributions (which I honestly haven't number-crunched in a while) and I had WAY too much white mana for the amount of white cards I'm playing between the main and side.
With the addition of Loam, you can reliably buyback lands that do get Wasted, and new ways to abuse Liliana OR clear chaff off the top again. Even if it gets slurped by a DRS, one use seems fine. The Ghost Quarter may be used to bust up the basic land plan other decks are running, since they're usually only running 1 of each, meaning you can throw them off colour and recur it with Loam. Maybe it's cute, but I'll give it a shot.
If I were to add Liliana, I'd cut Swords #4 and maybe Decay #4. This does muck my removal count, but Liliana is basically removal anyway. I'm a bit hesistant though with all the Lingering Souls still, since Planeswalkers are a liability against tokens.
Just brainstorming while the Professor does review.
-Matt
This is the list that I'll be testing over the coming weeks to prepare for the next NELC:
//Creatures: 15 + 3 (counting lingering souls as a creature spell)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3-4x Knight of the Reliquary
3-4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Lingering Souls
// Spells and stuff: 19
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
// Lands: 23
3x Bayou
2x Scrublands
2x Savannah
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Bojuka Bog
// Sideboard: 15
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Armageddon
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Engineered Explosives
I may replace Cradle, I want to replace Hymn and EE's with better things. Pulse does what EE does, but having backups isn't terrible I suppose. Jitte though will cover most of my token-cleaning up needs. And Hymns just don't seem amazing versus combo, which is sort of why I had them there. I'd almost rather just run 3 duresses to go alongside cabal therapies post-board. But no idea what to drop EE's for, maybe I'll just keep them as a concession to Empty the Warrens and Bridge from Below.
And I'm tinkering between running 4 stoneforge 3 knights, or 4 knights 3 stoneforge. I used to run Jitte's in the deck, and sorely missed the power of a single Lingering Souls token just taking a game over as quickly as it does. More stoneforges lowers the curve a little, is more consistently grabbing equipment which is kind of a big deal.. I'll have to tinker with it.
I should have qualified that statement. Much like other decks, both Junk and Jund have the ability to change their maindeck to achieve certain goals.Quote:
So apparently Jund listed us as one of their worst matchups besides Storm Combo. I haven't really tested the matchup extensively (no hours-long grinding sessions yet), but this is most definitely a good thing.
-Matt
A Junk deck running stuff that's immune to a single Lightning Bolt, or Abrupt Decay, is a huge problem. Hero of Bladehold, while I don't think adopted widely, is a huge problem, and every time I had one cast against me, it's a knightmare (get it? har har).
It's basically an attrition match-up, where you have something Jund cannot easily kill. I really do not know if Junk wants those cards (I also include Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls and equipment), but those builds are very difficult for Jund to deal with. There are a few players locally, especially one that I KNOW reads this thread, Wilkin, that only loses to me when I get lucky. He has discard and removal, except his removal can hit everything of mine (except BBE), but mine cannot hit his Lingering Souls/Bitterblossoms and especially that Hero.
And let me tell you, BBE pales when compared to those.
I like 4 knight, 3 sfm, since between bob and library, the search effect isn't always needed. I too have found hymn lacklustre of late
Yeah that's a fair statement, but that's why we play the removal that we do, right? I mean with that logic we shouldn't play KotR cause they're just gonna hose all of our lands. I'm also of the belief that all of the DRS play will eventually level off and he won't be splashed as much as he is now. Hope I'm not wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think that would be good. However, I will say that I have been enjoying a 6 maindeck targetted discard (4 IoK, 2 Thoughtseize) and 3 Hymns from the sideboard. Your 6 1cc discard spells have a good chance at being drawn early to take out the win condition, and if you're lucky you can follow it up with a devastating Hymn for pure card advantage against their combo enablers (and hopefully nuke some lands).Quote:
And Hymns just don't seem amazing versus combo, which is sort of why I had them there. I'd almost rather just run 3 duresses to go alongside cabal therapies post-board.
I may switch to Therapies over Inquisition if I start rolling with Lingering Souls.
I think if you're running Souls, you run Therapy. If you're not, then you run Hymn.
-Matt
So what's the general consensus about Witness? I'm hitting a local in Maine this saturday (Crossroads) and I want to have a decent sideboard. Meta-game is completely unknown, but I'm guessing a healthy mix between tier decks and altered versions/homebrews.
I'm considering a strong PW focus with Elspeth, Garruk, and 2 Lili's.
Not a huge fan of her. She's not a huge beater and generally to abuse her value you have to wait a turn. I think her tricks are a little too cute. Though, Therapying someone and then Witness'ing it back only to recast and then sac her to therapy is -quite- the hand raping. But that's asking a lot of someone by turn 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I probably wouldn't do it, no idea what you'd side her in against.
Teeg, discard, graveyard hate, combo hate, tribal hate. That's generally what I look to my sideboard for.
-- Quote from a friend, "Why would you run Eternal Witness? She's just a bad snapcaster." Never thought of it that way, but it's very true.
Witness is a card that is always near and dear to my heart. If you are playing a long, drag em out, grind em down style of play than witness is awesome at what she does. Against a deck that will not kill you by turn 4 she is a monster, just ask any miracles/stoneforge player. Hymn, witness, hymn... or even swords, witness, swords is house.
The reality is that she is just not fast enough against goblins, zoo, combo, rug and neither is snapcaster in most instances.
Im still playing 4 GSZ and 3 Lilliana's and trying a list with Souls over Knights.
I've always seen it as the opposite: fetching back a wasteland for a quasi-loam effect, fetching back a Bob/Library to draw out of your opponent or fetching back a lilly to lock someone out are things snapper can never do. Not to mention bringing back an instant or sorcery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
She belongs in a list that it more control/grind-oriented.
another junk top 8 this weekend with junk taking 2nd at the scg open. it was a Stoneforge souls list with 2 bitterblossoms to keep the tokens pumping... I personally hate the list but it shows the power of these new b/g shells.
one good b/w card is all I wanted, why is thrull parasite so bad, if they gave it hex parasites ability it would be super awesome an fantastic. A 1 drop that murders have on sight would have been a dream come true, especially one that made top a win condition....
that being said, the new root maze stops sneak and show quite efficiently, they can't emrakul instant kill you anymore. also with top every two mana is a drain for one! could be usefull.
THIS. Therapy is good on its own, and in a Souls deck it is, like you said, 8 Discard spells in 4 slots. It's not too hard to call Legacy anyway because there are LOTS of multiples. Whiffing is fine if the card you really want to hit is not in hand anyway. Abrupt Decay made this much easier as well. You can call stuff above 3CC or cards that Decay can't kill, and let it deal with the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
As for Show and Tell, having 3 Oblivion Rings SB has been pretty good for me. 8 answers to Show and Tell (including Knights and Karakas) is decent enough IMO. We run 4 Therapy, Souls, and Library to buy time to find the Rings. I used to run EE but I didn't really like it much. Doesn't work like it should in the Goblins matchup. I'm running E.Plague instead. EE is great against Merfolk and tokens, though!
They should totally be o-rings. That sounds ideal. Good call.Quote:
Originally Posted by .Ix
In the grindy, controllish games where Witness shines, wouldn't you just want to run something bomby-ier (albeit more expensive)? I see people's lists running stuff like Baneslayer Angel and Gideon Jura in the SB for those slowroll type games. I'd much rather run Reveillark or Life from the Loam (or BSA or Gideon or some bomby 3-5cc card) over Witness if I'm in an attrition battle against a grindy deck.
In my experiences with Witness, when I play her and fetch something (usually removal) it almost always gives me board advantage. I'm not saying she is always the best play but personally I'm struggling to find something else worthy of that slot. That said, I wouldn't have her in my side. Either main her or don't play her at all IMO.
So I ran the Jund grinds last night against Junk, and there are some interesting results. This is the list I ran against (I built this Jund list, since it's what I'd play in this meta). I'd rather play a better version of Jund as my test partner than a worse version:
23 lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Bloodbraid Elf (damn this guy's good against Miracles)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bolt
3 Punishing Fires
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
Basically, when Jund got Fires online, I died. Bolt was nice in removing my little guys or changing Goyf on Goyf math. Deathrite wars were SUPER annoying, and cascading into Liliana was a fucking pain in my neck. My Knights were fucking fantastic when they were good, and Bolt-bait when they were bad.
Basically, games were usually: each player empties their hands, destroying EVERYTHING, and then we both go into topdeck mode. If they hit BBE, they win, but if I hit anything, I win. It was really 50:50.
This was the list I was running:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf (should be 3 Goyf 1 Ooze with all the Fires around)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pulse
3 GSZ
3 Sylvan
1 Garruk
We didn't do postboard, but I felt like I needed an Ooze to go get with GSZ. 4 AD and 4 STP felt like too much removal (if there is such a thing), I'd reel it back to 4 Decay 3 STP.
More on this after my homework :P
-Matt
I'm a bit surprised, that Punishing Fire was that much of an issue. During my testing Goyf quickly got to 4/5 and knights got big relatively fast as well. This was my main issue on the Jund side - Rock big guys don't die to bolt, not to mention p.fire, whereas their guys die to all our removal (well, BBE doesn't die to Decay, but 3/4 of our guys kill him in direct combat). All in all games still often boiled down to who managed to keep their bob longer or resolve library faster, but resilience to Jund removal was what pushed Rock far ahead.
I'm also surprised that PFire was such an issue with deathrites, with their ability to eat it in response to the trigger. It seems like resolving one stops it pretty hard, or better yet just slamming knights back to back to back.