[Deck] Death and Taxes

Hi there,

as much as i like the idea of having access to moon-effects and even more: recruiters, i'm a bit more skeptical about the list. The reasons are following:
- You do NOT always have the aether vial, and even if, it has to ticker to 3 to put in the magus. Until then, most Players will have 1-2 basics in play (exspecially when the red taxes list is no more that new and no more surprise...)
- As Bahra said, there are quite a lot decks that just don't care about the Magus and where the continously mana-denial via ports does hurt them much more.
- D&T is a controldeck with the best goodstuff white can offer. Already now i regret that i don't have 2 slots more to play another Mangara or crusaders... Taking away 5 Slots (that are ALL cc3 and quite clunky) does not rly help there^^
- You cripple your own manabase... One of the best things about d&t has always been, that you DON'T have fetchlands that can be stifled and with 9+ plains you are quite safe from enemy wastelands. That said i think the MU against any tempo-based deck with delvers (exspecially canadian) gets quite worse with no more avengers to stop delver and just more cc3 Drops...)
- You only have 3 basic plains left in the deck... For sure you will most of the time be able to get 1 of them into play before landing the magus but without an active vial you might quite often become stucked with 1-x flickerwisps in your hand (even though Bahra is clearly right with playing the ful playset of them...)

Still i like the idea and i'm going to test the list following list as well (as i'm a big fan of mindcensor i put this guy in the last flexible slot): http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=99897

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasteland

Hi there,

as much as i like the idea of having access to moon-effects and even more: recruiters, i'm a bit more skeptical about the list. The reasons are following:
- You do NOT always have the aether vial, and even if, it has to ticker to 3 to put in the magus. Until then, most Players will have 1-2 basics in play (exspecially when the red taxes list is no more that new and no more surprise...)
- As Bahra said, there are quite a lot decks that just don't care about the Magus and where the continously mana-denial via ports does hurt them much more.
- D&T is a controldeck with the best goodstuff white can offer. Already now i regret that i don't have 2 slots more to play another Mangara or crusaders... Taking away 5 Slots (that are ALL cc3 and quite clunky) does not rly help there^^
- You cripple your own manabase... One of the best things about d&t has always been, that you DON'T have fetchlands that can be stifled and with 9+ plains you are quite safe from enemy wastelands. That said i think the MU against any tempo-based deck with delvers (exspecially canadian) gets quite worse with no more avengers to stop delver and just more cc3 Drops...)
- You only have 3 basic plains left in the deck... For sure you will most of the time be able to get 1 of them into play before landing the magus but without an active vial you might quite often become stucked with 1-x flickerwisps in your hand (even though Bahra is clearly right with playing the ful playset of them...)

Still i like the idea and i'm going to test the list following list as well (as i'm a big fan of mindcensor i put this guy in the last flexible slot): http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=99897

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

---

I'm glad you are testing the deck as well but I have to disagree with a lot of your points.

I have Æther Vial in 40% of my openers and considering that the game always goes long with D&T, I will have Æther Vial in more than half my games :smile:

Most decks don't have more than 2 basics IF they even have basics. and the type of decks with only 2 basics are not likely to fetch them out against D&T if they don't expect Magus of the Moon. I've played against Miracles a bunch of times now and in most games, Magus of the Moon has been super effective. It's just about playing it right.

About the "good stuff" point, Imperial Recruiter + Flickerwisp is about as much value as you can get in D&T. I've also been vial'ing in Imperial Recruiters to get Stoneforge to get Jitte several times. Giving me an extra body to wear and equipment and just giving me a lot of utility, even though it is slow it has not been a problem for me so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasteland

One of the best things about d&t has always been, that you DON'T have fetchlands that can be stifled and with 9+ plains you are quite safe from enemy wastelands.

---

I don't think agree with that at all. There's still plenty of juicy stifle targets in the deck, and having played against RUG Delver 3 times in 9 games it has not been an issue. Being safe from wasteland is easy with so many fetches still and besides, we're an Æther Vial deck, we're basically always safe from Wasteland. I admit that it's better to just run 9 plains when facing RUG delver but that's not the point, the point is that your UWR delver, Deathblade and elves match up improve dramatically from the red splash. Match ups that could be very difficult otherwise.

I have once "screwed myself over" with Magus of the Moon by casting it with no basic plains in play, but that still won me the game. You still effectively has as many plains in the deck as before (actually I have more now) so it shouldn't really be a problem.

I think I managed to disagree with everything here :laugh: but I appreciate the skepticism. But I hope that it will be gone after you try out the deck :smile:

Played the rw version last night to 3-0-1. It felt pretty strong beating shardless, omni tell, and junk. Felt that it could maybe use some tweaking like maybe a flyer that you can get with a recruiter like mind censor or maybe a mangara, but overall was strong.

I went 2-2 today, losing like a bitch to Omnitell, then beating Miracles, then losing my internet due to some kind of outage, expecting to go 1-2 due to that (but luckily, my opponent was 0-2 and gave me a free win), then losing to Storm due to bad hands and being still on tilt from the outage.

From what I've seen so far, the list is good. A good fetchable flyer would be nice, but I'm not a particular fan of Aven Mindcensor because it's slow and clunky. However, the only other flyer that could be even considered due synergy with the deck is Kor Skyfisher, but that seems kinda meh, especially when you're in a pinch. Utility recycling or saving a permanent with Vial would be kinda nifty, though, but I doubt it would be worth a slot.

Going to be playing again tonight, but unfortunately don't have recruiters this time, so it's time for some sweet zo-zu

I was thinking Kor Skyfisher also. Though if you have it, I might include a single Ghost Quarter. That may be getting a bit cute though.

Playtested a 1-off Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit in my deck, I liked it, helped me in a goblin match a lot! Hopefully soon I will be able to test it in more decks

Just let away crappy cards like Anafenza or Zo-Zu (we are NOT an aggro-deck, who cares the dmg from Zo-Zu?)...
Anafenza might even be not SO bad, but the problem is: there are so many better options that you don't need / have no place for her...
I had yesterday the opportunity to test a bit more the red build:
My conclusion is: it's completely meta-dependant, which 1 is better... when facing much bug, deathblade / exotic decks like lands or 10post, magus rly shines. In metas with more canadian, other d&t, miracle straight W seems to be better. Against elves, magus is normally to slow (though it still can shut down cradle), but sudden demise shines (if you can clear the board before Progenitus comes down) => still i would there prefer a combination of containment priests / council's judgement and of course 4 canonists vs. glimpse.
It's just s.t. about your playstyle... I personally love to have avenger and overall 9 flyers in my deck instead of clunky weak-bodied 3drops, though imperial recruiter + flickerwisp was insane in more then 1 game. And i have to correct my last post: the manabase is solid enough, even with the red-splash, but i would recommend to cut 1 port for the 4. plains.
Greetz,
Marius

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasteland

In metas with more canadian, other d&t, miracle straight W seems to be better.

---

I'll give you Canadian for obvious reasons. D&T might be true, too, but I haven't playtested against it yet.

But I fail to see how it's worse Miracles. You can fetch your colors to your heart's content, Magus jams their fetchlands (which prevents them from ridiculous amounts of card digging) and Recruiter finds you whatever you need while also providing another body for equipment and generating CA. I think that's worth the trade-off with running less flyers, especially the Recruiters.

Yep you can shut down shuffling - but in most of the games, the mana-DENIAL-plan (not the mana-transmute-plan via Magus) has been much more effective... + with a Magus in Play, Thalia without Karakas is only half as good as before...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasteland

Yep you can shut down shuffling - but in most of the games, the mana-DENIAL-plan (not the mana-transmute-plan via Magus) has been much more effective... + with a Magus in Play, Thalia without Karakas is only half as good as before...

---

But the mana-denial plan hasn't been altered in the slightest. You only play Magus when you think you really need him in play. Otherwise, business as usual.

Thats the plan in THEORIE: But remember, you don't have brainstorms and you have to make the best out of your ressources - there will quite often be the situation, in which you just have to land a magus cause you don't have any other pressure...
What i forgot: Most decks that have basics WILL fetch them against D&T, cause they don't want to be locked out with wastelands. I rly can imagine situations, in which you just WANT to port 1 or even 2 Basic lands and not stabilize their manabase via magus. Now of course you can say again, that you play the magus only when you see great advantage of it, but again: you can't always choose between more options, exspecially when you draw more then 1 magus and the boardssituation isn't that clear...
I rly want not hate the red-splash out, i like the idea very much, but you have to admit: you downgrade the quality of your cards in certain mu's, where magus is only a 3mana grizzly, while an avenger would dominate the board or while a censor would perhaps screw your opponent much more...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasteland

I rly want not hate the red-splash out, i like the idea very much, but you have to admit: you downgrade the quality of your cards in certain mu's, where magus is only a 3mana grizzly, while an avenger would dominate the board or while a censor would perhaps screw your opponent much more...

---

Mindcensor is terrible.

The build is far from set in stone, so people could experiment more. E.g. decrease the number of Magi while increasing the number of Recruiters for more utility.

For example:
MD: 4 Recruiter, 1 Magus
SB: 2 E-Tutor 1 Blood Moon (for match-ups where you really need the effect)

It really depends how much difference that one turn to fetch Magus actually costs you in games. That's a subject to testing. Speed reasons aside, having another source of CA (especially with Flickerwisp) and another tutor effect was something the deck was lacking so far.

Squee, Goblin Nabob could be used as a tutorable, recurrable platform for equipment and annoying blocker vs. anything that neither flies or has trample.

"Mindcensor is terrible."
You ever played the deck?^^ Sry, i rly don't want to troll you, but its by far the best overall hatebear in a meta of elves and storm-combo, which potentially bounces canonist eot but still looses to a censor in rsp on tutor... And in any match that's not Combo he stops fetchlands, blocks delver or just carries the equipment (not to mention exotics like Knight of the reliquary, gamble and so on...)
If you find room for Squee in d&t, you made s.t. wrong... the only big creature-threat for d&t is tnn and there Squee will not block...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasteland

"Mindcensor is terrible."
You ever played the deck?^^ Sry, i rly don't want to troll you, but its by far the best overall hatebear in a meta of elves and storm-combo, which potentially bounces canonist eot but still looses to a censor in rsp on tutor... And in any match that's not Combo he stops fetchlands, blocks delver or just carries the equipment (not to mention exotics like Knight of the reliquary, gamble and so on...)
If you find room for Squee in d&t, you made s.t. wrong... the only big creature-threat for d&t is tnn and there Squee will not block...

---

Mindcensor is generally too slow for what its main purpose is - hosing fetchlands and SFM. Slowness aside, my opponents still found exactly what they needed in their top 4 cards more often than I liked it.

And if your meta is full of Elves, then D&T is a terrible choice.

I also think Mindcensor is terrible, I play the full set of Leonin Arbiter and have since they were released, I love how much they shut down (especially off of vial in resp to a fetch). Yes, they have kept me from using SFM a few times, but they've cause more damage to my opponents than harm to me. I never played with a, E.Tutor board, so that's never been an issue there either.

Obviously when I test out the Red and Taxes idea I am not going to play Arbiter, but I am also not going to add in Mindcensor. I play Mindcensor in a Modern D&T build I created when the format was new (Not to be confused with Hatebears, mono white with Mana Tithe, Arbiters, Mindcensors, Ghost Quarter, Tec. Edge, Managara, Flickerwisp, etc.). So my set of Arbiter is going to be my first cut, and I'll go from there. I've always been a proponent of a full set of Flickerwisp, so I don't need to make a cut for them. I have also not play Serra Avenger in my Legacy version since Mirran Crusader came out, it's just too good, and it gives you another reason to tick the AEther Vials up to 3 counters, which was a small part of why I cut the set of Avengers for 3 Crusader, of which one is sometimes switched with a singleton Brimaz.

I definitely plan on testing out the red in the deck over the coming few weeks. There's a Legacy tournament a little under two hours from where I live that's a monthly and I usually go to that, but there's a Modern at my LGS and no one else wants to Legacy that weekend because of the local, but I may try my Red Mud (decided to call it Ocher) or a Red Taxes build if I test it enough to feel comfortable with it in a 30ish man tourney.

I have gone 13-3 in daily events with the deck now and I'm very happy with it. But my gf returned and I have exams so I won't be able to work on the deck anymore for a little while. Although if GP Lille was tomorrow I would play the red splash for sure. I hope that you guys will continue to work on it while I can't. But even if not, I will be back working on it before long :smile:.

I'm going to work on the red splash again after the weekend. I plan to test the following changes:

-2 Magus of the Moon, +1 Recruiter +1 Mangara
-1 Land +1 Karakas (to set up the Mangara combo more often)
-1 Serra Avenger +1 Kor Skyfisher (BIG maybe, just to see how it works out in this shell as a tutorable flyer with utility; if it sucks, back to Avenger)

And -1 something in the SB, +1 Blood Moon.

I've been playing the deck for about 6 months. I haven't played in anything bigger than an IQ which i managed to top 8. Here's my current list i'm running


4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
11 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
1 Manriki Gusari
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Circle of Protection: Red

That being said, do you guys think mangara is a card that is super well positioned? I've been trying to find room for 1 of them but i can't figure out where to cut. Mangara also makes vial less consistent with added 3 drops. Also has anybody tried out Masterwork of ingenuity in their boards? It seems good in the mirror/stoneblade matchup