This is 5000% incorrect. Tarmogoyf is most definitely past it's peak, but that doesn't make wannabe crap better.Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
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This is 5000% incorrect. Tarmogoyf is most definitely past it's peak, but that doesn't make wannabe crap better.Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
Mandrills is darn good, no matter what die-hard RUG players say.
-Matt
That's why it's unplayed. Gentlemen's Agreement 2.0?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
It's people like you why we can't have nice things. Instead if addressing what I said, you just evade the actual content of my message and don't even quote it.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Are you certain this isnt some bizarro roleplaying where a person does something but blames another person for doing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
And, no. I did quote it.
See?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
No, it's not some roleplaying; it's only you who tries to evade what now looks like a really strong argument by not quoting it and acting like it didn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I know it's more difficult to argue against what I said, but you can at least try. I mean, why not?
And yeah, I stand by it; you're toxic to the discussion by not addressing what I said. I mean, we're not 14 years old anymore where the most important thing is too make a "witty" comment so that we can evade facing what the other person said. I myself made a "witty" comment AND then addressed the issue with substance. You chose to only make the former; who's the troll now?
Would you mind taking that to PMs?
I'm interested in Prague Eternal Top8s. I'd love to see the amount of BS in the top decks. I guess it'll be something like 24 o 28 BS with one Dredge, Elves, Moon or another random deck top ate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I don't know anything about the exact lists though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
It's a bit disingenuous to compare such a basic building block of the game as lands to everyone playing a colored card. MTG doesn't have the kind of built to be a backbone cards that eg. Netrunner does, so everyone playing Brainstorm is an indication of poor format health.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I mean, yeah, the strategies are different (and esp. were pre-Cruise when the blue decks differed more significantly), but everything being cantrippy and blue isn't exactly diverse either. Still, rather Delver, Shardless, Miracles, Storm than Delver, Delver, Miracles, Storm.
Did you make a strong argument? Because I must have missed that part, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
There we go. Toxic, troll, 14 year old. Let it all out. One of the best tactics when making weak points and witty one-liners is to call the person who disagrees a toxic 14 year old troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
What parts of your comment did you want me to address further? The part where you made an analogy to soccer? Or the part where you misused the word diversity by attaching a completely different meaning to the word? Because you really addressed the issue there with strong, constructive, pertinent and decisive arguments consisting of style and substance. Well done.
This isn't soccer. Diversity already has a true meaning and it isn't "how much your mind is challenged". Are we done?
I fucking well hope so.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I agree with Julian's point regarding diversity, but I do have to wonder why Julian is replying to something from twenty pages ago.
Seems like goyf is just as dead of a card against RiP, unless you just need a squire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
Over or Under. 27 Brainstorms in the top 8 of GP NJ.
I'm going with the over.
I'll bet on delver +4.5 over brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
What lists do you see playing Delver but not Brainstorm?Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
I see 28 Brainstorm and 20 Delver in the top 8.
Going with under, -3. Probably one Elves and one random non-blue gimmick deck in the top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
I'll disagree. These tournaments are longer than an SCG event. That means the non blue decks need even more luck than they normally would.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
My vote goes to 7/8 Brainstorm decks in the Top 8, and 13-14 BS decks in the Top 16, with Elves or random anti-blue decks taking the rest of the slots.
For sure 1 of U/R goes 5-0 piloted by Sam Back which has really a lot of luck, fightning vs storm (Game 3 - Storm player has kill in hand even over FoW on play - and... he didnt draw initial mana for over 3 turns).
"Sam Black" and "luck" in one sentence ... Hmmmmm....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
If cards like brainstorm, FoW, or treasure cruise get banned, people will just play the next best thing. Every format will always have a "best" deck. If blue gets banned, every top 8 will be Elves or something and people will want to ban glimpse. When glimpse+NO gets banned, people will all play white and then people would scream for SFM to get banned.
What's "The next best thing" to TC?
Ancestral recall ? It doesn't shrink goyfs.
But by this logic, shouldn't we be unbanning pretty much everything? I mean, all the deck/cardss that see play right now are the "next best thing" after the decks/cards that are banned. You can't use this logic to argue against bannings because by that logic you might as well unban everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
I mean, why is Ancestral Recall banned according to this logic? People are just playing the next best thing, after all.
That's an excellent point. But isn't that just the nature of bannings? Ban something if it's oppressive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Personally, I feel like brainstorm is omnipresent but it isn't "oppressive". We shouldn't group decks into "brainstorm decks" and "nonbrainstorm decks" or even "blue decks" and "nonblue decks". We should look at decks as different decks. We shouldn't lump UR dever with UWr or miracles. Lumping brainstorm decks together is like lumping "Deathrite shaman decks" together where Elves is nothing like Jund.
Then again, I may not be having as big a problem with blue as other people here are. I mean, I don't play blue, but I have no problems with blue decks.
The same argument can be made for Mental Misstep and we all know how that went - with good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
The reasons for banning Mental Misstep (making the format too blue + going into every deck) can be made for Brainstorm as well, except Brainstorm has now even surpassed the numbers that led to the ban of Mental Misstep (thanks to Treasure Cruise).
But even without TC, we weren't that far away from those numbers before. If they only ban TC, Brainstorm just goes back to be a time bomb ready to go off again when they print the next blue bullshit card. And Treasure Cruise being gone doesn't make Dig Through Time go away, which could easily be the next big thing.
The problem with the argument is that we've unfortunately reached a point in the Legacy meta where 3 parts of the blue shell: Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder, are better in combination than everything else in the meta. Lists that run those 3 parts of the shell consistently place better than lists that don't. That's created a stagnant meta in which people are just innovating around those 12 cards plus 48 others. Delver of Secrets is a problem because he's the best beater that the other 3 parts of the shell have and so many lists use him as their primary threat. Delver in turn empowers (re-empowers?) Daze because he's such a good early threat that protecting him at all costs is a priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
The blue shell is not 20 cards as many claim. It's really 12 cards. It's the two fixing cantrips and Force of Will. Some lists use Delver and Daze. Some lists use Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top. A few lists, generally not quite as successful, use True-Name Nemesis and Jace, the Mind Sculptor as their primary threats.
What needs to get fixed is the cards that shoehorn the meta into the same blue shell. That's not Delver of Secrets, although he's fairly coercive on the overall meta. That's not True-Name Nemesis, although he's also a load for many lists to handle. It's not Jace, the Mind Sculptor, although he is somewhat overpowered in control.
The cards that cause the problem and create the blue meta are Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. They're the cards that need to be looked at. They're also the 3 most played cards in the meta by a wide margin.
Treasure Cruise has added to the problems mainly because it plays with the 12 formative cards in the blue shell and makes them potentially 16. It also enables all the other blue shell mischief however it's not as pervasive or malignant to the overall meta as the big 3.
But is it THAT much better than the meta or are more people just playing it? Genuine question. I agree that it's probably the best shell, but say you have a 1000 man tournament and 500 people play the blue shell and 500 people play elves, would the top 8 still be 6-8 blue decks? What if the field was half blue shell and half burn?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Random info: I play almost exclusively elves, so I may be biased with how good the blue shell card draw is.
Consistency is key, and brainstorm allows for the most consistency.
It's that much better in terms of consistency and predictability. I'm with you on Elves being an extraordinary list at this point. It has the consistency and predictability that 28+ creatures, 8 tutor effects and 8 draw effects creates. However, it's one of the few lists that can compete with the blue shell in that regards.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
For predictability and reliability the meta essentially is:
The blue shell
Elves
Burn
Everything else.
Now in the everything else you have highly predictable lists like Dredge that are also easy to hate. You have fairly predictable lists like Death and Taxes that also have major liabilities in the meta that they can't match up against. That's pretty much it though. And really you ought to be playing one of the top 2 archetypes above if you can afford it and the third if you can't.
The blue shell is dominant though. It's consistency squats all over lists that could handle Elves and Burn and create a much wider meta.
I think the thing is blue decks are better at beating random tier 1.5 and tier 2 decks than Elves is, so it seems more dominant even if the elves MU is 50-50?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Honesty, elves can randomly herp derp hoof at a consistent enough rate that they probably beat the random garbage more often than even the blue decks.
Yes, the blue shell is better at beating combo and Pox and MUD and Enchantress and the like than Elves is. Elves would be much less of a sure thing in a meta in which the blue shell wasn't covering for it with all the unfair lists that might get the drop on it and knock it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
Further, the blue shell discourages non-blue lists that aren't highly consistent, to the point of extreme predictability, so even lists that have generally decent matchups against the blue shell and Elves are still handicapped by the fact that both of those archetypes are more consistent and thus more playable in a long competition.
You weaken the blue shell some. You let the unfair lists weaken Elves some. Everybody else suddenly becomes a bit more playable because there are no extremely consistent lists out there that are just clearly a better play in a long competition.
Does this make Magic a bit more random? Sure, but Magic is already random. One blue list in a match will get a better draw than another blue list and the match will go over for that reason. It happens all the time. Trying to make Magic into Chess just doesn't work. It makes the Magic environment boring and stifling, no pun intended, and removes a lot of majesty from the competition in the process. The competition should be about sweeping ideas and arguments over the value of cards and plays. It should not be about "perfectly played Brainstorm".
How hard is it to know how to play one card well?
Well, if the blue penetration is lower and the storm combo penetration is higher what does that do to Elves? Similarly, if hatebears variants are more common because the blue shell is not significantly more consistent than them what does that do to Elves? Finally, if slower control that is not Miracles based becomes more playable because the faster blue lists don't just run all over it what does that do to Elves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
We can't see the real effects that the blue shell has on the Legacy meta, other than raw numbers in top 8's, because we can't account for the lists not playable in that meta that are only not playable because the blue shell is so much more consistent than them. We can't see what happens to the few non-blue consistent lists, like Elves, Burn and Death and Taxes when they are suddenly joined by more powerful lists that have been freed from the tyranny of the blue shell.
Yes, but rejecting a banning suggestion because "they'll just play the next best thing" doesn't work for the reasons I suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
In fact, there's something else I didn't mention. And that's the fact that the next best thing, whatever it is, is worse. If it wasn't worse, people would be playing it already. Thus, a ban still achieves the goal of weakening the problematic strategy or deck.
I would say that an omnipresent card is inherently oppressive.Quote:
Personally, I feel like brainstorm is omnipresent but it isn't "oppressive". We shouldn't group decks into "brainstorm decks" and "nonbrainstorm decks" or even "blue decks" and "nonblue decks". We should look at decks as different decks. We shouldn't lump UR dever with UWr or miracles. Lumping brainstorm decks together is like lumping "Deathrite shaman decks" together where Elves is nothing like Jund.
It's a bit like saying "we shouldn't group decks into Ancestral Recall decks" which clearly isn't any reason or in any way helpful to understand why 'tral is or isn't banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
Brainstorm might be oppressive in that it eliminate things like mulligans or accumulation of uselesss cards over the turns, and that's something that no other card can, at least not for the mere price of tapping one island. This way it pushes out of the game those decks/colors/tactics that do not have these tools for not only momentary CQ, but also one that dips in the past: one that undoes wrong keep decision, one that trades chaff for gas, one that allows powerful gameplan switches.
Which of course isn't that bad, if you
- play only the casual Magic, drafts or Standard
- do like the recent inbred metagame
- or fear that your "Killah Dek" won't be having free games against rest of the field anymore.
Humane reasons, but why should I play by this rules if it's funny like prying shit out of tread...
I think it won't take much time until people really realize how powerful choice Elves are. Seriously, seeing how it has access to unrestricted Ancestral Recall, Tinker and Tolarian Academy makes me sad that I haven't bought the cards when they were cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Definitely. Maybe it's because I play RUG exclusively, a deck that is far from being the best choice right now, but even considering all other choices, I still think that Elves are pretty much better in dealing with mid-low Tier decks than say Thresh or any other non-Miracles, tempo deck.Quote:
Honesty, elves can randomly herp derp hoof at a consistent enough rate that they probably beat the random garbage more often than even the blue decks.
While it might be fun to trying defeat a Fat Kid's Deck, Elves don't exactly care (unless it's a deck that packs unusual amount of removal) and surely don't have to deal with things like protecting Delver, clearing the path for Goyf to connect, FoWing a random Craw Wurm or having lots of dead draws (Stifle, Daze, Waste... basically the whole tempo shell). Elves simply run over the poor guy...
Enter the underdeveloped metagame anecdotes here.
how was reverberate printed with fork being on the reserve list? Simply by removing the fact that the copy is red?
Well, if the coverage of the GP is representative of the deck being played, then the following cards should be emergency-banned in Legacy:
Brainstorm
Delver of Secrets
Young Pyromancer
/Poe
Yes, and from memory it caused a issue and was on of the incidents that lead to the doubling down on the list when they closed the loophole on foil cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713