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Uhm.. You're saying thalia is bad.. I assume you're probably losing games because of her. Can you tell us about your meta and how you planned to beat them with your build mb and sb? Also, how long have you been using Maverick?Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouSerious???
EDIT:
Also, has it occurred to you that you're only running 20 lands?
I was only joking brother. I wouldnt really want thalia to fall by wayside. Thalia is healthy for the format but shes a pain in my ass since I play mostly combo and tempo strategies and some dredge, all of which (even dredge at times) get migraines simply from hearing the name thalia.Quote:
Funny thing actually, I've never done any research on DnT :P . Let me look into it and I'll let you know what I find
DnT is a very annoying taxing deck that focuses more on that aspect than the toolbox/tutor aspect that maverick does. Its very powerful but less consistent due to no tutor ability outside of SFM. That and mid-late game aether vials suck as opposed to the power of GSZ.
Im not a mav player myself but im a pretty big fan of the archtype plus this is my wifes pet deck so I have the (dis)pleasure of getting owned by it pretty often :-)
Thing is maverick runs 30 ish creatures and 8+ ways to accelerate mana so thalia taxes you far less than anyone playing blue/red/black. Then add t2 wasteland into the mix and RUG might not be casting a freakin bolt all game if she resolves. The first strike gravy is also really annoying at times.
On DRS for a moment. Ive had my own DRS' cause maverick a few problems [KotR specifically when raced by TS] but I honestly dont see how its existence should force mav to splash for removal?!
Mav's grave is inherently lean to DRS' damage ability since GSZ doesnt hit the grave leaving very few instants/sorceries for food to begin with forcing DRS to catabolize itself.
It does shrink KotR which is inconvenient, so instead cast any of the other 26 beaters + jitte. Meanwhile ooze naturally owns DRS inside out downside up.
Anyway id like to hear arguements for why DRS [or anything] necessitates splashing for MD removal which has disynergy with thalia and the whole toolbox threat density/redundancy thing mav has going on..
Also why not run pithing beetle MD?
You win against fair decks by grinding them out.
Punishing Fire is excellent at grinding out fair decks. Plus, it gives you additional reach along your DRS and helps fighting enemy Planeswalkers who are quite troublesome. It also gives you business when you have nothing else to do with your mana.
In my limited testing so far, it has been extremely good. I do think it has some merit to run it if the manabase works.
Barook- I agree with what you said but isnt that what maverick is good at anyway, i.e. grinding out? What fair decks really given you problems, Jund, goblins maybe?
The plainswalker answer does have some appeal I agree but then I'd think bolt is preferrable in all instances simply due to manabase issues of grove and 3 damage vs essentially 1 (when to the face that is). I guess I just dont like the clunkyness of punishing fire and the horrid manabase.
A lone mountain otoh wouldnt be unthinkable though and could maybe open up some other things like an E.tutor box maybe even including blood moon. Another idea vs plainswalkers specifically is more flash creatures although I havent really looked to see whats available. I do know elspeth is good here, pithing effects also. These are all assuming the splash is necessary although I still just dont see it being so. I know abrupt decay is a serious pain too but then you can't stop that barring cc4 or hexproof.
Jund can be problematic, mainly if they run Punishing Fire as well. BUG Shardless is definitely a hard match-up due all the card advantage they can generate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
If it just came down to additional removal, then you could just run some maindeck Abrupt Decays which kills pretty much the same (and more) except Jace. Being able to get it back (which doubles as Liliana protection to a certain degree) and shot some dudes again is quite strong.
E.g. I just played a game against Esper where he had 2 Snapcaster Mages + 4 Lingering Souls tokens. Punishing Fire in conjunction with Scavening Ooze helped me to stabilize and turn around the game. Being able to actually kill stuff instead of exiling it gives Ooze some food, which can be relevant as well.
PF is also going to take over Bolts damage-wise sooner or later when it just comes down to burning your opponent down. If you don't get it back, it's still 2 damage to the face and it gets rather silly with multiple copies/cycles, assuming you have the mana.
Congrats, you have now been forever ignored. Your arguments are still bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouSerious???
Maverick routinely plays 25+ creatures. It's spell are not efficient outside of StP which is still efficient at :1::w: under Thalia. GSZ is not efficient when you have to pay X+1 to find a creature of CMC X. Elspeth is far from efficient in mana cost, but she's a trump so the 4 mana makes up for it.
Or maybe the whole name of the deck Maverick bucking the trend to play more spell than creatures was lost on you.
Also, maybe you missed the part where I routinely Top 8'd tournaments for a solid 8 months stretch? (link)
Anyways, as your handle suggests you're only a troll and have been ignored.
So I was browsing through my cards today and I came across this little gem heartwood storyteller. With moms protection this seems like a nasty GSZ target. Thoughts?
Ok, I have decided to contribute considering my very messed up attitude towards this deck lately.. Seems like it could work, would definitely make people second guess anything they play against you.. Has good toughness, good mana cost.... Umm, I know it sounds flippin stupid, but what aboooooout.. Mana Tithe?? I had thought about it before considering most people don't expect a flat out counterspell in a White deck... Definitely something that would be used sparingly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
.. I've mostly have had to resort to head-games in order to win with my deck. I choose not to run Thalia because it shows that in the long-run Combo and Control players will have the upper hand against this deck.. I run 20 lands cause there is another card that this deck chooses to run around... KOTR, shes good, but she should'nt deserve ALL the creditQuote:
Originally Posted by test1985
So I've been working on a punishing dark maverick deck. This is how my list looks atm:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
SB
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Punishing Fire
2 Extirpate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I hope the mana base will be good enough with 2 BoP 3 Shamans. I cut Maze of Ith, I do love the card, but I feel like it can cause problems.
More anti combo cards in the SB than usualy because the MD should be good enough against most fair decks bcus of fire.
Not sure if we need discard MD. Thoughts on this?
Can probably cut 1 punishing fire, 1 abrupt decay and 1 Garruk relentless from the SB. Not sure just yet how the SB should look like.
A friend of mine plays GWb Mav and he uses three Dark Confidants. Why not try that when you're in those colors?
You play 23 lands in a GWrb deck, maybe, maybe you may cut one fetch.
You play two Pridemages in a deck with four GSZ, maybe you may cut one cat.
And then if you find another slot, you may incorporate those three Confidants. (I can even see you going down to zero Seizes main and than it's quite easy to find space for Bob.)
regarding the 4-color punishing maverick here with its awful manabase...
May be I'll sound silly, but why trying to invent bicycle, when Jund is just better?
What? Thalia absolutely ruins Combo if she hits the board against them. If the combo decks are hurting you bad, add hate to your SB like Ethersworn Canonist or Mindbreak Traps (assuming your meta is more storm focused). If you're worried about reanimator style decks, try Bojuka Bog (tutorable by KOTR!), Surgical Extraction, and/or Rest In Peace (yes it makes KOTR weaker but it hurts Reanimator, RUG Delver, opposing KOTRs, etc.). The bottom line, though, is that you should be playing Thalia. I'd go down the Sword, or at least move it to the SB (personally I'd rather have one Batterskull and a Jitte only in main), because it's not going to do as well as the Jittes and it's easily one of the weaker swords you could be playing, maybe an Elspeth and Sylvan Library (both of which are usually 1-of's), and maybe one Mindcensor.Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouSerious???
You should also really fix your land base. Horizon Canopy is good, but at a 3-of it'll kill you more than it'll save you, and I'll echo lolTemple Garden. Hell I'd just replace the Shocks for Cavern of Souls (calling Human on a Cavern in Maverick is the best thing ever when you have Hierarch, Mom, Thalia, and KOTR), get a Karakas (yeah the Thalia block trick is nice, but it nails target Griselbrand or Emrakul in one), and probably a Maze of Ith too, though I suppose that last one might be a little meta dependent.
Lastly, there's really never any reason you should need 3 Gaddock Teegs in your side. I'd go a max of 2, but usually you only need one since you'll either draw him or tutor him with GSZ and that should be more than enough.
Try to avoid looking at Maverick as a hard aggro deck, because it really isn't. It's a midrange deck through and through, building your board state to try manipulating it and gaining an edge on your opponent. The endgame is to beat their face in, sure, but it's something that takes longer to do than, say, Goblins or Affinity which drop their hands pretty quickly and smash their opponents, something Maverick almost never does.
Brewing is fun. Noboby proclaimed it as the best thing since sliced bread.Quote:
Originally Posted by door
As long as there isn't playtest data, you can't say that Jund is just better on the basis of a better mana base. The core is (or should be) Punishing Maverick with black sideboard tech to combat combo and for DRS activations which is quite different.
@litenkatt: Our lists look pretty similiar:
MD discard does indeed seem very greedy.Quote:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I would definitely run a MD Dryad Arbor since it's too good to pass. You might be right on the second Bayou and putting Bog in the sideboard since MD Bog was pretty situational and black mana is premium.
I'm still unsure whether I should use a fourth Mom or keep the Safekeeper. A second BoP is probably a good idea because from what I've seen so far, the deck is extremely mana hungry and the extra mana fixing should be pretty nice.
I would definitely run SoFaF in the MD. It's already damn good in the normal Maverick variants and it can be used to power up the Grove/PF engine to absolutely decimate their board. Whether or not to run a third SFM is debateable since space is premium.
Talking about premium: I can see the point of Fatal's single Life from the Loam due to enormous mana hunger the deck has, but then again, what to cut?
I also like your fourth PF in the board. A single Canonist without E-Tutor seems a bit random, though.
what about GWb maverick you are playing vs jund, team america and bug control match ups in comparison to GW zenith lists? Do you have live experience to make a comparison?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I haven't played GW Zenith since a long time. I've played Vial Maverick for a while before switching straight to Sunyveil's GWb Maverick list because I saw the advantages the splash has to offer. And I trust Sunyveil's judgement on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by door
Team America is pretty much non-existent in the MODO meta, but there's lots of BUG Shardless and a very occasional Jund deck. The splash certainly helps, mainly due to DRS in those match-ups, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that it improves match-up X up to Y%.
But I fail to see how that's relevant in the discussion about Punishing Dark Maverick. It's my little pet project I'm working on as a sideline since I want to get the manabase right before dropping money on it.
The power level of PF is very high in fair match-ups and it's performance so far was quite impressive from what I've seen. The question is whether or not it's possible to maintain the strenght of the black splash against combo by having its sideboard cards. The only theoretical point that speaks against it so far is the greedy manabase, hence the experiment to see if it's workable or not. If it doesn't, it was worth the try, but if it does - awesome.
I haven't had time to read back on all the stuff in this thread (super long, probably lots of good info).
As a new member to the forum I am excited to be dusting of my Maverick deck for the next few weeks. I was planning on practicing and playing with Shardless BUG, but I don't think I have the time before this weekends upcoming tournament to practice and learn all the lines. That being said, I love Maverick, and with the decline of Terminus I think it can still put up results with a pilot who knows the deck well.
I am looking to add a black splash for Deathrite Shaman and Thoughtseize out of the board. I considered running Vindicate in the board to deal with Jace TMS, but I think that is getting a little to greedy. The combo decks have been on the rise, and I have my fingers crossed 3 maindeck Thalia, 1 in board, as well as a main deck Gaddock Teeg will be enough to stop combo (or at least slow them down enough). I normally run a sideboard with an Enlightened Tutor package for silver bullet type cards: Ethersworn Canonist, Choke, Worship, etc. and I know that still needs some tweaking for the current meta (lots of Storm and BUG Discard).
How do you all feel about value green creatures coming out of the board against decks like BUG that run heavy discard spells like Hymn? I know against Thoughtseize, some of the cards you WANT to randomly get discarded will be avoided like the plague. I am talking cards like Wilt-Leaf Liege and Vengevine. They are resilient against not only the discard they run, but they have a > 3 CMC that cannot be targeted by Abrupt Decay, which is slowly taking over for removal (since everyone runs DRS).
The more I'm playing with Punishing Fire, the more I'm impressed with it - to the point where I might make some sideboard changes to improve combo matches even further:
Current board:
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Potential changes:
-1 E-Plague, -2 AD
+1 Punishing Fire, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Thalia
I found discard in general pretty crucial in the combo match-up, so increasing them from 4 to 5 might be the right call. I could see another Thalia contributing quite well against combo, too.
I'm a bit sceptical about E-Plague. Sure, it's nice against Elves and certain decks heavy on Humans (which hurts you as well), but my gut feeling tells me that a 4th PF has a wider range of applications while being good in those matches as well.
AD is another shaky candidate I'm not sure if it's cutable or not. It's a great card, but both Pridemage and PF can handle most removal cases as well.
I would like to throw in a Bojuka Bog as well, but the sideboard space is tight.
What are your thoughts on this?
First of, you didn't answer my question:Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouSerious???
1. How do you play against say.. ANT, elves, and Miracles? (Not to be mean, but can you at least tell us your game plan against these decks mb and sb?
2. how long have you been playing maverick?
As for KOTR, you do understand that she's strong for toolboxing lands into wasteland, cavern of souls, bojuka bog, karakas, or something else that you need, right? You don't rely on her to help you out with mana.
Maverick is built around "hatebears". Meaning you hate different strategies based on your existing meta. Lastly, life lost from temple gardens might be the difference between winning and losing especially against gobs and merfolk. If you don't see the power of maverick, maybe this deck is not for you. Perhaps when you try other decks and you play against an experienced mav player, you'd understand this deck more.
Bojuka bog has great synergy with PF it might be worth a look in the main since it not only combats reanimator/dredge but to a lesser extent RUG, ANT etc. Also what about a couple mind censors main for some more disruption?