[Primer/Deck] Pox

Ok gang, I have to admit I have been a traitor to the Pox cause lately and have been jamming Miracles for the past few months. Was tired of losing to my own deck's variance with Pox. But I really miss Cursed Scroll (I know, of all the cards).

So I have been daydreaming of a sort of UB Pox build that can help solve our most basic problem - lack of card selection. We rule the creature world, choke all resources, but sometimes just flood, or they draw Jace off the top in the lategame... it's no fun. So here's a kind of draft list, if you feel it doesn't belong here just let me know

3 Lili of the Veil
3 Jace

2 Necropolis Fiend

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 ThoughtSeize
3 Hymn
4 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood/Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Cursed Scroll

4 Wasteland
2 Factory
2 Usea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tabernacle
2 Island
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith

I dunno really this is a super rough draft. Some thoughts:
- 8 Cantrips feels like the standard correct number.
- Necropolis Fiend is kind of a pet card, could be cut. Either I'll cut it or Cursed Scrolls, since both play a similar role as repeatable removal and a clock
- manabase - tried to hit 26 lands since land heavy is the way to go with Pox, but also wanted a decent number of basics so we can play a waste-proof kind of game if we want to. maybe the 3rd Urborg would be better than the 4th swamp though, since 3 swamps would be enough to have them on hand for fetches, maybe cut factories altogether for a more stable manabase... but with cantrips, maybe can afford to go down a few lands in general. Slightly worried about consistently hitting BB on turn 2 but also having U available
- overall, the deck has roughly the same amount of removal and discard as the monoblack builds I've run in the past (maybe 3-4 fewer removal spells, if we count Liliana and NoSB), most of the space is found by cutting a land, the beseech and it's accompanying 1ofs, and the dark rituals
- cards I want to find room for are spell pierce, flusterstorm, 4th liliana, 1st liliana last hope, maybe NoSB and/or Crucible, 3rd creature sweeper, some snapcasters, strix... list is long

No sideboard as yet, but I feel like having access to countermagic and card draw in the board would be quite helpful, and could see maybe 3 Clique. Counterbalance in the board would give us a tool against Lands and Storm that would correct otherwise painful matchups.

since any new deck has to answer the question - why play this over other control decks? my thinking is that with Smallpox and Wasteland, we can attack mana better than Miracles or Grixis, which should improve our Tempo matchups relative to them. Mostly though I'll admit that this is mostly aimed at improving on Pox and not at breaking the meta wide open or anything.

Anyway, like I said it's a pretty rough list. I only have 1 Usea right now but might try to cobble this thing together and take it for a spin. Will report back if I end up doing so. Any thoughts welcome!

Not a fan:
- Expecting to cast Jace in your Smallpox deck is not reasonable
- Control decks don't WANT to wasteland tempo opponents; it's playing into the gameplan that the tempo decks want to play
- By cutting disruption for cantrips you are reducing your opportunities to trade resources with the opponent on turn 1-2 which makes Liliana (the whole reason to play Pox in the first place) much worse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Ok gang, I have to admit I have been a traitor to the Pox cause lately and have been jamming Miracles for the past few months. Was tired of losing to my own deck's variance with Pox.

---

Sensei's Divining Top was literally the nuts in Pox. The variance factor is why a lot of players post on here about quad-laser lists to increase consistency or splash for green for Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, etc. Splashing blue seems to be fine, there has been every other color splashed in pox. Here are my thoughts:

1)Search for Azcanta - this card doesn't need any investment beyond the first 2 mana to be incredible, similar to Bitterblossom in that regard. It lets you play Smallpox after playing it, no problem.

2)Recoil - in B/U you will still have a problem with permanents, so the natural place to look is bounce. Recoil can effectively answer anything you need to answer. It's a little expensive, but you're looking for a specific effect. The discard factor is really great. Curving Hymn into Recoil seems nasty. Sideboard card potentially, and maybe not good enough at all, but it fits the game plan nicely.

3)Talisman of Dominance/Sunken Ruins - a way to fix your double blue cost for Jace. Sunken Ruins seems to almost be necessary, and probably the best way to fix BB and UU mana problems. Talisman offers mana acceleration that allows you to continue playing the Smallpox game while not shorting your own mana for bombs like Jace. Just a single blue mana available for a Ponder/Brainstorm can help you pull ahead after Smallpox.

4)Baleful Strix - while not working with Smallpox very well, this is an incredible way to slow opponents down. Watching Reid Duke (a former Pox aficionado) play 4x Strix and 2x Jace in his Grixis control list at GP Richmond was a sight to behold. Every time he drew and played Strix it was pure gas, blocking, attacking, drawing cards. He also had KCommand, but that target was usually Snapcaster Mage. Either way, it was incredible. And that brings me to the last suggestion...

5)Snapcaster Mage - probably not correct here, mostly because it drives you closer and closer to Grixis Control, which is a better Snapcaster deck than anything with Smallpox. At that point you have to question why you aren't going full-force into the best control cards in these colors and you'd naturally arrive at Grixis Control.

So to sum up, I really think you could make a couple of small tweaks and really take full advantage of the blue splash:

-2 Necropolis Fiend (Jace is your win condition outside of Factory.)
-1 Ponder
+1 Search for Azcanta
+2 Talisman of Dominance

-1 Underground Sea
+1 Sunken Ruins (I honestly believe this would fix your mana better. You have plenty of basics to run a stable base without another fetchable dual. It conveniently allows you to avoid another $600-700 cost as well.)

I also would question the Maze of Ith (maindeck.) Yes it's incredible, and necessary, in mono-black because of limited options. You have blue with Jace now. Maybe a sideboard card? If so, I would straight up swap that with a 3rd Factory.

EDIT: You're probably good with 7 fetchlands as well if you put in Talisman of Dominance. That opens up another basic land or a 2nd Sunken Ruins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Not a fan:
- Expecting to cast Jace in your Smallpox deck is not reasonable without mana fixing + acceleration
- Control decks don't WANT to wasteland tempo opponents; it's playing into the gameplan that the tempo decks want to play but it's still good at denying resources, which is what pox decks do, to set up a robust win condition with Jace + Factory protection
- By cutting disruption for cantrips you are reducing your opportunities to trade resources with the opponent on turn 1-2 which makes Liliana (the whole reason to play Pox in the first place) much worse

---

Fixed that for you, and I don't think playing cantrips is bad at all. It allows the deck to reliably land a t3 Liliana, which is still just fine. She wouldn't have a t1 Liliana without Dark Ritual anyways. Curving cantrips into removal, hymn, and Liliana t3 seems fine too. I think playing on a curve is just fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Not a fan:
- Expecting to cast Jace in your Smallpox deck is not reasonable
- Control decks don't WANT to wasteland tempo opponents; it's playing into the gameplan that the tempo decks want to play
- By cutting disruption for cantrips you are reducing your opportunities to trade resources with the opponent on turn 1-2 which makes Liliana (the whole reason to play Pox in the first place) much worse

---

Thanks for these points, helps to clarify my thinking.
- I agree that Jace is a bit ambitious, but most Pox decks do run a selection of 4cmc cards (eg NoSB, Nether Void); with cantrips to help find mana and/or the talismans Mr. Safety suggests it should be ok?
- I feel like we are not trying to tempo them out, that is true. But smallpox is great against Delver because it is chokes their land-light deck. If your gameplan is to run on 2 lands, and now you're running on 1... that is not pleasant. Pox runs wasteland and is a control deck
- I have tried not to cut too much disruption, rather cutting top end cards. It is shaved a bit, but not heavily so (most lists I see run 7ish discard and 4ish blood/push, I'm right about there)
- just in general about the cantrips. Since, as you point out, the deck runs a lot of early interaction, the cantrips would not be played as the sort of t1 ponder to find a land kind of thing you see out of Miracles/Delver. Rather, would be early non-cantrip interaction, and then on turn 3-4 when you need to land a permanent to lock it down, the cantrip would help find it or help find more disruption. That at least is how I'm thinking about it.

Thank you for the suggestions Mr. Safety. I like Search a lot, especially as it can also function as a land. Sunken Ruin is also an excellent suggestion, since double-colored mana is the real choke point in a lot of ways. I think you're right to cut Fiends. Factory over Maze might be right, more wincons and it taps for mana which is nice. Snapcaster seems good but when I reflected that nearly the whole deck is sorcery speed (exception of brainstorm and fatal push) it felt like it loses a lot of value in such a context.

With the list as you suggest it, I have essentially all the cards, so will probably try it out soon since why not.

Thanks as always for all input :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Thanks for these points, helps to clarify my thinking.
- I agree that Jace is a bit ambitious, but most Pox decks do run a selection of 4cmc cards (eg NoSB, Nether Void); with cantrips to help find mana and/or the talismans Mr. Safety suggests it should be ok?
- I feel like we are not trying to tempo them out, that is true. But smallpox is great against Delver because it is chokes their land-light deck. If your gameplan is to run on 2 lands, and now you're running on 1... that is not pleasant. Pox runs wasteland and is a control deck
- I have tried not to cut too much disruption, rather cutting top end cards. It is shaved a bit, but not heavily so (most lists I see run 7ish discard and 4ish blood/push, I'm right about there)
- just in general about the cantrips. Since, as you point out, the deck runs a lot of early interaction, the cantrips would not be played as the sort of t1 ponder to find a land kind of thing you see out of Miracles/Delver. Rather, would be early non-cantrip interaction, and then on turn 3-4 when you need to land a permanent to lock it down, the cantrip would help find it or help find more disruption. That at least is how I'm thinking about it.

Thank you for the suggestions Mr. Safety. I like Search a lot, especially as it can also function as a land. Sunken Ruin is also an excellent suggestion, since double-colored mana is the real choke point in a lot of ways. I think you're right to cut Fiends. Factory over Maze might be right, more wincons and it taps for mana which is nice. Snapcaster seems good but when I reflected that nearly the whole deck is sorcery speed (exception of brainstorm and fatal push) it felt like it loses a lot of value in such a context.

With the list as you suggest it, I have essentially all the cards, so will probably try it out soon since why not.

Thanks as always for all input :)

---

It's actually a really intriguing idea. Top decking garbage after blowing your opponents plan up is so frustrating. Brainstorm, Ponder, Jace, and Search will all make sure you're still drawing gas and avoiding the top-deck nightmare that Pox runs into so often. Yes you're losing a land here and there from Smallpox or Wasteland activations, but all you need is U to filter into more lands and spells you can cast. What's really good is the fact that discard, Smallpox, Jace, and Mishra's Factory are all fantastic against the control decks of the format. I strongly suggest you Youtube GP Richmond and watch Reid Duke and Andrew Cuneo's matches. Those decks are monsters (Grixis Control/Miracles respectively) but both of them would have a hard time against Smallpox and Factories. The blue just lets you keep up with them. Landing a Jace after playing a pox plan? MURDER. You just keep disrupting and fateseal them to death. It's a fantastic win condition, one you can protect with discard, removal, and Factories. You could even play some counterspells in the sideboard (GOTCHA!) Think about how good Spell Pierce would be after a Wasteland and Smallpox?

Good luck with this, and post some results! I'm excited to see what it can do.

EDIT: If you don't want to play Talisman, I don't think 1-2x Chrome Mox would be bad. Probably 1x Chrome Mox is fine, it allows you to double up on t1 plays and fixes your mana if you have extra cantrips.

EDIT #2: I might squeeze in 1x Liliana, the Last Hope. Another win condition that is good against a ton of the format.

Alright, with Mr. Safety's encouragement, I ended up cobbling together something like a deck and taking it to the local tonight. What follows is a major wall of text, feel free to ignore my report/ramblings (if there's a way to spoiler stuff on this site, please let me know)

The list as I ran it:

3 Lili of the Veil
3 Jace of the Mind Sculpting
1 Lili of the Last Hope

3 IoK
1 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
2 Innocent Blood
1 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Smallpox
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Search for Azcanta

4 Swamp
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Usea
3 Urborg, Tomb of his holiness Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes, etc, etc.
2 Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Maze
1 Tabernacle

SB
3 Spell Pierce
1 Bridge
2 Bitterblossom
1 NoSB
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Brutality
3 Surgical
2 Pithing Needle

notes on the list - sadly I don't have 4 Polluted Delta, which would have been much nicer than 2. I also only have 1 Thoughtseize, having been on IoK all this time :wink:. I also only have one Usea, no Sunken Ruins, etc. So this is just what I had that seemed like it would be a good test of concept.

Report -

Round 1 - ANT
game 1 I take him to no cards. but Past in Flames doesn't need you to have cards. I casts Past in Flames off an LED, the flames tendril down my life total, causing me serious agony. game 2 I again take him to no cards, and surgical Infernal Tutors and Brainstorms while I'm at it. But Dark Petition is also a tutor, and Past in Flames returns from the near past to win another game. I start to consider that maybe Leyline > Surgical in this deck.
0-1 / 0-2

Round 2 - Tin Fins
game 1 He combos out fast. game 2 I lock him down and he scoops to LotV + Jace. game 3 is a repeat of game 1 except there's discard for my discard and silent gravestone for my surgical. Leyline again looks like it would have been nice.
0-2 / 1-4

Round 3 - Sneak and Show
game 1 I get him low on cards, he show & tells omniscience and cast a free sneak attack but he's out of juice and no payoff. Jace starts fatesealing him. I ult lili to try to get him to lose his omnisciences (in retrospect this was dumb since he'd never sac them and I can never make him do it). I'm one fateseal from killing him when he gets brainstorm into emrakul, and that's all she wrote. game 2 he counters 3 discard spells and casts sneak and show and I lose.
0-3 / 1-6

Round 4 - BUG Death's Shadow
This was just a friendly game since my original opponent decided to leave secretly so I'd be paired against him anyway. game 1 I kill his threats and Lili + Jace takes over. game 2 he stifles my fetches and I die. game 3 doesn't happen cuz it's late.
0-3-1 / 2-7

So yeah, not an amazing finish, but seeing as I was paired against 3 combo decks I'm not sure it's mega indicative of anything other than that Pox loses to those decks. Some various observations
- If Surgical had been Leyline it would have probably won me at least one of those combo games, and maybe matches. But then, surgical is better than Leyline against Sneak and Show, so maybe it's just pairings of the day
- the manabase was a little shaky, at least in the face of wasteland decks. being able to cantrip for lands was great and helped a lot, but having only island when you want black was not so amazing. I think having the full 4 deltas and at least 1 more sea would be a big help. Might go up to 4 Urborg as well, and maybe shave an island down to 2. had no trouble getting to 4 mana for Jace, but then I was not in smallpox-heavy matchups either.
- Jace was amazing (big surprise :cool:). Jace fatesealing against combo when you've messed with their hand felt at least as good as Liliana making them discard what they draw (probably better since it's also a clock and they won't get to draw and potentially cast the thing). Jace's unsummon also pairs well with LotV's discard.
- cantrips felt good, smoothing out mana issues and also helping find gas. Was just nice to have them and be better at digging, have more keepable hands, etc.
- Jace & Lili both do the same thing in the deck, as end-game final lock pieces, denying them good draws and controlling the board. Both together on the table feels unbeatable. That said, sometimes it also feels like overkill having them all. Might be able to go 2 Jace.
- would like to go to 4 factories, but it seems hard to fit in.
- didn't have too much of a problem with less disruption, was able to find hymns/Iok/etc often enough, and cantrips helped that as well

Anyway, I am not too disheartened as I feel that monoblack would not have done any better against those pairings, and the blue was more helpful than hurtful, in my opinion (though admittedly left me vulnerable to stifle). I am interested to play the deck again, hopefully in more fair matchups and maybe with some of the switches to the manabase, maybe fiddle with the numbers on some of the MD and give the SB more actual thought.

More big picture, I was contemplating how the deck would function as a control deck. There's already a UBx control deck in format, and it's centered around snapcasters and strixes and Kcommand. This deck would be a UB control deck focused on Smallpoxes and Lilis and Jaces. Strix + Snap are very good, but don't play well with Smallpox, unfortunately (not that we can't play them at all, just that they're not at their best here). So if we continue to center the deck on smallpox, it comes with some serious deck-building constraints in terms of how many creatures we can play. On the other hand, if we don't focus on smallpox, Lili gets worse and we really might as well go to play Grixis control. So the big question here is - how good is smallpox really, and how can we best abuse it so that it's better than snap + kcommand? Cantrips and Jace do seem to play well with the pox, since they help you recover from it better, and help to shut down the opponent after it's had its time to shine. But maybe some more graveyard-oriented synergies could be worth trying out as well (maybe Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to give your spells flashback). Anyway, just some thoughts. There probably is a UB Smallpox Control deck in here somewhere, but whether it's really as potent as Grixis... well I don't know

As always, happy to hear feedback, will report again if I end up trying it again

It's like the question : why play GB when you can play Dark Depths?

Some thoughts:

1) Surgical Extraction is the most commonly played grave hate card in the format currently. People are prepared to play around it. When your opponent is more prepared to deal with your strategy than you are with theirs, it's tough to make optimal decisions. It's not an indication of 'your deck is bad' so much is 'your deck isn't optimized.'

2) Shaky mana-bases have been the downfall of many home-brewed decks. Four deltas, cutting to 2 Islands, working in 1-2 Sunken Ruins, and having either Chrome Mox or Talisman of Dominance would have allowed you take over the Death's Shadow game. Stifle does nothing against Swamp + Sunken Ruins. Yes you're vulnerable to Wasteland, but you already decided to take that risk with a 2 color pox deck.

3) Your premise for the deck is sound against the more prevalent decks in the format (control variants and delver variants.) Pox has always been soft to uber-fast combo because the disruption is sorcery based. Losing the die roll is actually the downfall. I've always had trouble against ANT with Pox and Tin Fins is a gross, t1 deck. *shrug* You can't be good against everything. You just have to figure out what you want to be good against and plan accordingly. Blue is increasing consistency with cantrips and Search and then providing a robust win-condition that establishes inevitability (Jace).

4) I think 2 Islands is plenty, and maybe the full 8 cantrips is too many. Brainstorm is the easy 4, but maybe it's 4x Brainstorm, 2x Ponder 2x Search for Azcanta. Then your only other blue card is Jace or sideboard cards. Brainstorm allows you to play around other's discard, which is a huge upside that Brainstorm brings. If my math is correct, that opens up a slot for Talisman or Chrome Mox.

5) It might be too ambitious, but maybe Creeping Tar Pit is correct over some number of Factories. It's more mana intensive but also a faster clock, better at killing opposing PW's, and can attack through chumps. The mana fixing isn't irrelevant either.

I hope you don't give up after one outing. Deck looks really fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardcore

It's like the question : why play GB when you can play Dark Depths?

---

At one time in history, playing Depths in BG pox was the literal nuts. Have your cake, eat it too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

...Anyway, I am not too disheartened as I feel that monoblack would not have done any better against those pairings, and the blue was more helpful than hurtful, in my opinion (though admittedly left me vulnerable to stifle). I am interested to play the deck again, hopefully in more fair matchups and maybe with some of the switches to the manabase, maybe fiddle with the numbers on some of the MD and give the SB more actual thought.

---

I could see testing some number of Stifle and 1-2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as another form of attrition/wincon... shes easier to cast than Jace and fits better in a Pox strategy imo.

I never get why Ashiok is a good card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardcore

I never get why Ashiok is a good card.

---

3-mana walker that starts at 3+2 loyalty so she's hard to kill. Generally good at attrition and grinding long games which is why Pox is an ok fit for her. She's never really found a true home but does some powerful stuff. LtLH is probably just better now though.

Or, you know, fucking JACE.

I'm looking to make this deck alongside Lands. I already have the Tabernacle. How ideal/important is The Abyss, Nether Void and Chains of Mephistopheles in this deck? I have most of the other cards to make it but don't really want to splash out much more and all those cards are also expensive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amjw

I'm looking to make this deck alongside Lands. I already have the Tabernacle. How ideal/important is The Abyss, Nether Void and Chains of Mephistopheles in this deck? I have most of the other cards to make it but don't really want to splash out much more and all those cards are also expensive.

---

Abyss is least important, arguably unplayable

Nether Void seems to be more useful/successful but I'm personally not a fan

Chains can be a decent SB card in 1-2 copies but not totally essential

I think the Tabernacle is probably the most important so it's good you have that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Abyss is least important, arguably unplayable

Nether Void seems to be more useful/successful but I'm personally not a fan

Chains can be a decent SB card in 1-2 copies but not totally essential

I think the Tabernacle is probably the most important so it's good you have that

---

I got the impression that they were in the lists as being optimum but not as essential as tabernacle (even though there are good lists without tabernacle). Still need to finish the deck and will do that when I come back from my travels. Pox looks like a fun deck to play with though.

Thanks all, I will probably try the deck again. Not sure I'll be getting the Deltas just to try this out more, but will work on the manabase a little more, fiddle with numbers. Will report back. Creeping Tar Pit is a good idea. Just wish it wasn't $15 or something. Not sure about Ashiok as all she does is mill when she lands. Playing their stuff is cool but I'd rather have Lili or Jace I think. Stifle would definitely be interesting as a more versatile Sinkhole. Maybe I'll slot a couple of those in, see what happens.

@amjw
Opinions differ but none of those cards are really required. I bought them when they are $300-400 and at this point I play Void in the sideboard and 1x Chains in the main. Now that the prices have shot through the roof for both of them I don't think they're worth it. You see them float around as 1-ofs, often in sideboards. Adachi Ryosuke runs 2x Void in the MD pretty consistently. But not having them won't cost you many games, and definitely not if you go more aggro with ghasts like the Clayton Levi lists (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19883&d=328520&f=LE).

So i played this to a 6-3 finish at the MCM Series Paris.

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
12 Swamp

4 Bloodghast
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Dark Ritual
1 Buried Alive
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Scroll Rack
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the last hope

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Marsh Casualties

Matchups were:
2-1 UR Delver
2-0 Elves
1-2 RB Reanimator
1-2 DnT
1-2 Burn
2-1 Blue Painter
2-1 Grixis Deaths Shadow
2-1 Grixis Painter
2-1 UB Deaths Shadow

I should have definitely played some Ratched Bombs in my 75 :rolleyes:

Would not have helped against Reanimator and burn.