Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
It boils down to a combination of meta-call + personal comfort/style.
Nobody is really playing Intuition anymore, so RUG is typically a single Trop for Academy Ruins (to support EE). Worth noting a winning list at MKM Prague was running a second Trop and 2 Tolaria Wests.
EE gives us a lot of resilience to almost any problematic permanents (cheated-in fatties not withstanding). Against fair decks, this can easily kill anything with cc 3 or lower, often with card advantage. It comes back from the yard and DRS cannot eat it. You won't need other sweepers in the board.
The downside is deck space. Since EE gives inevitability and a better "long game", you will generally cut back on speed - eg, extra copies of Stage and Depths, plus maybe Manabond. You probably also drop to 3 PF, but the big effect is slowing down the combo.
Tolaria West will slow you down even more (both from being a 3cc tutor and by taking even more deck space for a second Trop). It's not very popular these days, but it's a total bomb vs fair decks that run counter-magic and also put up a lot of pressure. T.West lets you (without risk of counter-spells) find Chasm, EE, combo pieces, Zorb, or any utility land in your toolbox. It can also recur from the yard, which your other tutors cannot do, making it the ideal late-game tutor.
It's basically an all-star in any match where Crop Rotation loses value. Again, not a very popular card, but I personally find it terrific.
TLDR - A blue splash for EE is better in a grindy match but worse when you want to race. Throwing in T.West further exaggerates the difference.
Also worth noting there is a RBG version with maindeck ADs and Thoughtseize in the SB. I've never played that build so I won't comment much on the pros & cons. But if I understand the deck is a little worse at doing what Lands does (aka, beating up on fair decks), but is better vs combo.
It is quite obvious, but I'll add - as it already has been pointed out here before - that the RUG version (RGu may be more accurate imho) is a bit more exposed to grave-hate, since the EE / Academy ruins engine is particularly useful thanks to its resilience through the graveyard.
2)
Also, on an other note, I also am a fierce defensor of the 61-cards list in toolbox-heavy decks like Land (and especially the RGu version).
And to be honest, I don't understand why Land players - including all the recognized ones, such as you, Jarvis Yu ;-) and the others - don't go up to 61, since there is statistically no real downside (as already pointed out on this forum in the past) doing so. I really do think it just comes to MtG players being a bit superstitious and not willing to consider that the "60-card rule" has to be contextualised.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkgobs
1)It is quite obvious, but I'll add - as it already has been pointed out here before - that the RUG version (RGu may be more accurate imho) is a bit more exposed to grave-hate, since the EE / Academy ruins engine is particularly useful thanks to its resilience through the graveyard.
I actually wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think the rug version is better vs grave hate than straight RG. Your artifacts can't be touched by deathrite. You have access to Crucible if your loams get eaten / extracted and you have access to EE when your pfires get eaten / extracted. No one is playing RIP anymore and even if they were, EE destroys that (you do lose EE in the process though).
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkgobs
1)It is quite obvious, but I'll add - as it already has been pointed out here before - that the RUG version (RGu may be more accurate imho) is a bit more exposed to grave-hate, since the EE / Academy ruins engine is particularly useful thanks to its resilience through the graveyard.
2)
Also, on an other note, I also am a fierce defensor of the 61-cards list in toolbox-heavy decks like Land (and especially the RGu version).
And to be honest, I don't understand why Land players - including all the recognized ones, such as you, Jarvis Yu ;-) and the others - don't go up to 61, since there is statistically no real downside (as already pointed out on this forum in the past) doing so. I really do think it just comes to MtG players being a bit superstitious and not willing to consider that the "60-card rule" has to be contextualised.
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I'm a statistician, so I completely disagree. I don't want to argue about it though, because I feel like everytime I do, people feel like I am attacking them.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
tl;dr version: Especially in RG, you want an accelerant in your opening hand. I essentially mulligan almost every 7 that doesn't contain one.
Second, I don't want to tell people how to build their decks unless they ask me to. I feel strongly that Magic is a game about enjoying yourself, so I don't argue about things like these cause I don't want to make people feel like they're being attacked.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rlesko
I actually wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think the rug version is better vs grave hate than straight RG. Your artifacts can't be touched by deathrite. You have access to Crucible if your loams get eaten / extracted and you have access to EE when your pfires get eaten / extracted. No one is playing RIP anymore and even if they were, EE destroys that (you do lose EE in the process though).
Fair enough, what you says makes sense indeed. Maybe I should have been more clear about what I meant:
My point was rather that since our opponent will board-in the maximum grave-hate he's got against us, our EE-strategy (I wasn't talking about Crucible, which is, as you said, a good card to avoid to fight against hate, even if it is not a fixed slot at all in RGu lists) will be more easily circumvented by hard grave-hate (RiP is still a thing) that will anyway be boarded-innagains us. Furthermore, half the engine is a land, A.ruins, that can be more easily dealt with with card like DRS than artifacts.
So yes, the U splash give us more tool and variety to fight (and yes, also to resist to some grave-hate) but all those tools are in a way grave-dependent (EE will often end up dredged in your graveyard and will need to be put on top of library, which isn't always easy to setup), which is worth noting in this deck. That was my point. ;-)
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
If you like to PLAY Magic, RUG is the thing. I always wanted to have a solution to everything instead of having just another combo deck.
RG has PF, Tabernacle, GQ... I think it's a mistake to just not include more possible solutions. And I never missed anything. Comboing is my last step and not my only.
I even included back the TW. It is slow. But not too slow. It's great in longer games and/or when the opp has counters. (Such a bad feeling, if a CropRotation gets countered.)And I want to play longer games if possible.
Intuition, well, I decided it just doesn't fit.
If you just wanna win tournaments, RG can be your thing... But if I wanted just that, maybe I wouldn't even play Lands!
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkgobs
Fair enough, what you says makes sense indeed. Maybe I should have been more clear about what I meant:
My point was rather that since our opponent will board-in the maximum grave-hate he's got against us, our EE-strategy (I wasn't talking about Crucible, which is, as you said, a good card to avoid to fight against hate, even if it is not a fixed slot at all in RGu lists) will be more easily circumvented by hard grave-hate (RiP is still a thing) that will anyway be boarded-innagains us. Furthermore, half the engine is a land, A.ruins, that can be more easily dealt with with card like DRS than artifacts.
So yes, the U splash give us more tool and variety to fight (and yes, also to resist to some grave-hate) but all those tools are in a way grave-dependent (EE will often end up dredged in your graveyard and will need to be put on top of library, which isn't always easy to setup), which is worth noting in this deck. That was my point. ;-)
I still maintain that RIP really is not a thing, unless you mean some sort of local legacy scene where things are relatively stagnant ( which I would argue is not particularly relevant in a competitive forum like this one). So yes, EE still needs the graveyard for recurrence but you may still naturally draw it and tutor for it with tolaria west so there are plenty of ways to get it besides dredging. EE is both a lock engine and piece of removal - it is not only worth evaluating the card in the scenario where you have academy ruins, I would not hesitate to lose one to remove a scavenging ooze or rest in peace (if the card were actually played :tongue: )
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jarvisyu
I don't want to tell people how to build their decks unless they ask me to. I feel strongly that Magic is a game about enjoying yourself, so I don't argue about things like these cause I don't want to make people feel like they're being attacked.
One day I will have this statement tatooed on my forearm so I can show it to anyone who loves to boss everyone around, with warcries like "crap", "misplay", "noob" etc. ;)
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?
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Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lichking616
can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?
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price of progress says hello.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lichking616
can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?
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Yes, there are many situations where it is good outside of a full lock. It is also one of our only ways of stopping a true name nemesis once that hits play. Don't underrate simply stalling for 2-3 turns and paying the upkeep cost.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
djxstream
price of progress says hello.
You can't play around everything...
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Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Especially if you take out the cards that help you play around it.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lichking616
can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?
The current environment features slower fair decks like Czech, Stoneblade and Grixis Pyro. They're playing threats that are harder to remove because toughness > 2 and/or they're named Leovold or TNN. Some of these decks run several basics and are harder to lock out.
But also these decks are a little slower, and some of them don't run Wasteland. Chasm lock is a fantastic play against them.
Chasm is a unique part of our defense package that more than pulls the weight of its slot.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jarvisyu
tl;dr version: Especially in RG, you want an accelerant in your opening hand. I essentially mulligan almost every 7 that doesn't contain one.
Second, I don't want to tell people how to build their decks unless they ask me to. I feel strongly that Magic is a game about enjoying yourself, so I don't argue about things like these cause I don't want to make people feel like they're being attacked.
Very interesting approach, I'll have to test this on a regular basis. Thanks for the tip!
But then, it also makes me think:
If accelerants are so essential that you mulligan almost every hand without at least one, why not play one more copy of it and add a second Manabound in the main deck? If it is a matter of space (which probably is), why not go up to 61 cards?
Indeed, If we do some maths, we see the following:
- 60 cards, 5 accelerants: odds of having 1 or more accelerant in the 7 opening cards are 47,45%
- 61 cards, 5 accelerants: 46,84%
- 60 cards, 6 accelerants: 54,14%
- 61 cards, 6 accelerants: 53,49%
So if having Exploration or Manabound in your first opening hand is as vital as you claim it is (and if you say it, considering your experience with the deck, it must makes sense), I am then wondering why we wouldn't give ourselves 6% more chance to draw what we need in the first seven (+6% is actually quite something!) by simply going up to 61 cards?
Maybe it is linked to the fact that we usually tend to board out the manabound, making theses statistics only relevant pre-board? Or maybe I am just missing something...
PS: I used http://stattrek.com/m/online-calcula...geometric.aspx to get the numbers above.
/!\ EDIT:
I forgot to count the moxes as accelerants, which of course changes the maths a bit:
with 9 accelerants (exploration + manabound + moxes) and 60 cards, the odds of having one or more accelerant in the first 7 are 70,02%.
9 accelerants, 61 cards: 69,33%.
10 accelerants, 61 cards: 73,46%.
10 accelerants, 60 cards: 74,13%.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Hey everyone! I'm taking RGu Lands to a 75 proxy tourney on Sunday (my first ACTUAL Legacy event too) and I wanted to get your guys' opinions on my list, especially my SB.
[DECK]
1x Academy Ruins
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Crop Rotation
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Dark Depths
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Exploration
1x Forest
3x Gamble
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
4x Life from the Loam
1x Manabond
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Molten Vortex
4x Mox Diamond
3x Punishing Fire
1x Sheltered Thicket
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Thespian's Stage
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Drop of Honey
3x Krosan Grip
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Tormod's Crypt
Personally, I rather like my list at the moment, but I don't have enough testing against a lot of different MUs, so I'd still like help and opinions. Also, I'm still a little unsure on how to use Drop of Honey and when to board it in. I'm aware that it's great against TNN decks, but other than that, I'm unaware of when to use it and all of it's various applications, so help there is greatly appreciated as well. TIA!!
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Why is Lingering Souls starting to see play in some Lands sideboards? I get the lists usually run Bojuka Bog, Riftstone Portal, Horizon Canopy, and/or Murmuring Bosk somewhere in the list to help with the color fixing. Yet, I do not see what this is supposed to come in against.
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Epeirogeny
Why is Lingering Souls starting to see play in some Lands sideboards? I get the lists usually run Bojuka Bog, Riftstone Portal, Horizon Canopy, and/or Murmuring Bosk somewhere in the list to help with the color fixing. Yet, I do not see what this is supposed to come in against.
Maybe to help in metas that are heavy on edict-like effects?
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkgobs
Maybe to help in metas that are heavy on edict-like effects?
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I would put in a Mishras Facrory or other manland before I totaly push everything to the white splash for such a SB card. I don't know. Can someone explain, I don't see it either.
So if he edicts he does. He could also StP... So what...
Re: [DTB] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DoctorQuantum
Hey everyone! I'm taking RGu Lands to a 75 proxy tourney on Sunday (my first ACTUAL Legacy event too) and I wanted to get your guys' opinions on my list, especially my SB.
[DECK]
1x Academy Ruins
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Crop Rotation
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Dark Depths
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Exploration
1x Forest
3x Gamble
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
4x Life from the Loam
1x Manabond
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Molten Vortex
4x Mox Diamond
3x Punishing Fire
1x Sheltered Thicket
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Thespian's Stage
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Drop of Honey
3x Krosan Grip
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Tormod's Crypt
Personally, I rather like my list at the moment, but I don't have enough testing against a lot of different MUs, so I'd still like help and opinions. Also, I'm still a little unsure on how to use Drop of Honey and when to board it in. I'm aware that it's great against TNN decks, but other than that, I'm unaware of when to use it and all of it's various applications, so help there is greatly appreciated as well. TIA!!
My oppinion: You have EE and don't need Drop of Honey.
And I wouldn't include Tormod's Crypt.
The deck seems good for the rest.
