[DTB] Vial Goblins

@ Zay, overpowered, ddt15: thanks for the answers, they were very clarifying!

On WI subject: I've been testing just a few matches with the 2 versions (monored and rb) and I've come to the conclusion (after reading what you guys said) that RB version is so tight that there's no place for WI, specially when we have so many colorless mana sources. On the other hand, Monored version seems to need this kind of guy MD, although sometimes it didnt even need to appear to create a win condition; the only question in monored would be how many, I'm testing 3 of because I don't want to have 1 on my hand ALWAYS, 2 should me considered, but I don't think it has great efficiency if compared with 2x SGC md, for example.

@Alma: did you miss siege-gang commander? I think the biggest problem in Goblin's deckbuildings today is knowing what to put MD, there are cards you simple can't take out (pile, warchief, lackey, matron, ringleader), there are "removals" (stingscourger and gempalm on MonoR build, which we choose the quantities usually like 4/3 of) and there are some cards which you can choose wheter "main decking" or not.

I'm not really sure if SGC is this type of card, could you tell us a litte more about it? Also, did you choose the MonoR by Metagame option or just because you wanted to play with it?

Thx, cya!

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Originally Posted by Alma

@ ScatmanX: You were there, right? Did any better?

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I was in the same champ. Went 6 wins, 1 intentional draw.
Will post report tomorrow.

I decided for the MonoR.

Not really a metagame choice, but I played RB for a while, and wanted to try MonoR once.
I liked, it's way faster, but I miss the Weirdings.

Removing SGC worked fine. I didn't like the card because of the casting cost, since Vial should never reach 5 counters, and Lackey and Instigator aren't there to connect.
(I mean, it's great when they do, but, in the end, they're there just to be targeted by removals or be blocked to spare a precious Warchief when you are trying to swarm out a couple of blocking goyfs.)
I always thought that the bombs aren't really necessary, since the small guys win all your games...

But I don't know, I don't play this deck a lot, and I need some serious testing to decide between some SGCs and maybe a land to support them, or the Instigators.

I'd say cut some Chieftains for the SCG's.
@Thales
You do know Tacosnape MD's 4 in his RB Goblins right? Take a look, it looks like an awesome build.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

I'd say cut some Chieftains for the SCG's.
@Thales
You do know Tacosnape MD's 4 in his RB Goblins right? Take a look, it looks like an awesome build.

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Hey bako!

I looked the mana base at first and he cuts the ports and there're more R mana, consequently less color screw and then slots for WW.
Also I thought that playing NO chieftian in MD is some kind of offensive after many games playing with this guy, which is VERY powerful. Actually, in MonoR builds, I often play goblins by vial/lackey/ww and in this situation Goblin Chieftain is even more powerful than Warchief. This point has been discussed here a for a while...

But I will test this version and try to see what are its really points. As I said, it looked a little weird to me AT FIRST, used to playing with chieftain and ports, but if it works well, I do not have problems with changes :D

Cya!

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Originally Posted by ThalesCG

Actually, in MonoR builds, I often play goblins by vial/lackey/ww and in this situation Goblin Chieftain is even more powerful than Warchief. This point has been discussed here a for a while...

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This is what I've been running into constantly; unload my hand quickly due to Lackey/WI/Vial, then beat down with a couple 1/1 and 2/2 creatures until my opponent finds an answer. With Chieftain, my attack step actually matters much earlier. Warchief allows for some really broken mainphases though, so it's a tough call; I actually dropped my WI count to 2 and upped my Chieftain count to 4 while still running 4 Warchiefs.

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Originally Posted by Alma

Removing SGC worked fine. I didn't like the card because of the casting cost, since Vial should never reach 5 counters, and Lackey and Instigator aren't there to connect.
.

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In games that go long, aether vial at 5 is going to win you a game if you need SCG to resolve against a deck that runs counters. Playing against BANT I have had this come up for me several times, and it is very game swinging when it happens....

Yeah, I'd say Aether Vial should be set at whatever you need it to be. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a "set number" of counters to keep on it. Also, where is the discussion on Chieftain? I'd like to see the more recent stuff, as I'd like all the arguments made to have serious testing backing them up.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Yeah, I'd say Aether Vial should be set at whatever you need it to be. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a "set number" of counters to keep on it. Also, where is the discussion on Chieftain? I'd like to see the more recent stuff, as I'd like all the arguments made to have serious testing backing them up.

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I brought it up a few pages back; essentially, in monoR builds running playsets of Lackey, Instigator, and Vial, you're often times in a situation where you have 3+ guys out on the field swinging, but if one of them isn't Piledriver, you're really not doing too much damage in relation to the number of men you're turning sideways (Lackey + Matron + Ringleader = 4 points off 3 men). As a side effect, Warchief becomes much less valuable if you're vomiting your hand before turn 3 anyway, although he does still allow for insane mainphases.

Chieftain allows you to hit harder earlier, not crutch so much on Piledriver swinging for a billion, and he allows you to keep the pressure up without overextending. I like him a lot and I'm almost never sorry to see him (never a completely dead topdeck).

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

In games that go long, aether vial at 5 is going to win you a game if you need SCG to resolve against a deck that runs counters. Playing against BANT I have had this come up for me several times, and it is very game swinging when it happens....

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100% agree. I'm not a fan of hardline narrowminded rules like that in magic.

In fact, one of the most devastating plays you can make is warchief, ringleader, SGC off vial 3 turns in a row. I actually think this is the easiest way to win games - if your opponent isn't winning by then already, they are going to have a very hard time recovering from that one-two(-three!) punch.

And I move vial up to 4 all the time if I, A) have a ringleader, B) am expecting a ringleader that turn, or C) need a ringleader to secure victory or to come back from defeat.

And to bakofried's question, I usually like 2-3 chieftains in monored and 0-2 chieftains in RB. But that's just me.

My meta is zoo heavy, I'm considering playing 6 sb cards vs zoo. What do you think are the best?

4x Perish
2x deathmark or the perish equivalent that I can't remember the name of...deathmark's are also useful against iona.

4 Perish
3 Pyroknesis
Knesis has a way wider aplication than Deathmark.

Mono R sb :(

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Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe

My meta is zoo heavy, I'm considering playing 6 sb cards vs zoo. What do you think are the best?

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Zoo is going to be a little problematic even if you designate 6 slots to it.... they run burn, which is going to be a problem for your early creatures.... The best plan is to play the control role, if you dont run port, you should against a zoo heavy environment to cut them off colors.. against zoo I bring in 4 pyrokenisis and 2 relic of progenitus

In Zoo heavy metagames, play a list with some number of Stingscourer and Mogg Warmarchal MD. They're great agains't it.

Hey guys,

I play 4 Chalice of the Void in SB. Thats what i usually board against zoo. You just have to keep the pridemages to a minmum then.
CHalice is also good against StifleNoght, Tempo Thresh, ElfBall, and ANT and Belcher of course.

Another thing:

What do you guys sideboard against Lands and Enchantress without G-Splash? I run into one of these like every tourney once or twice. I am playing a rather weired list (for your standards), maybe you can comment on it:

4 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wastelands

4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Piledriver
3 Warren weirding
2 Stingscourger
2 Incinerator

4 Matron
4 Warchief
3 Chieftain

4 Ringleader
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

2 SGC

SIDE:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ley-Line of the Void
2 Perish
1 Anarchy
2 Reverent Silence
2 Earwig Squad

I tested 3 Perish, 2 Silence and 2 Perish, 3 Silence. Now i decided to add Anarchy, cause its like a replacement for Perish (since it kilse Pridemages, Loam Lions, War Monks) and also a replacement for Reverent Silence (since it kills Moat, Humility, Solitary Confinement). + It takes Planeswalkers. This could be an important point because Gideon Jura is joining the format in 2 weeks.

Worth using this?
Goblin Tunneler - {1}{R}
Creature -- Goblin Rogue
1/1
{T}: Target creature with power 2 or less is unblockable this turn.

I feel like they just gave goblins the crack in the dam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

In games that go long, aether vial at 5 is going to win you a game if you need SCG to resolve against a deck that runs counters. Playing against BANT I have had this come up for me several times, and it is very game swinging when it happens....

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That came out wrong, sorry. I didn't mean it to be a rule, or something... just what happens more often while I'm playing my list.

I usually leave Vial with 3 counters, because of the enormous ammount of CMC=3 I use. They are 12, compared to 4 CMC=4+ only, and, maybe, one or two SGC, if I decide to include'em.

Doesn't feel good to increase the number of counters before I have the Goblin in hand, because the chance of drawing a CMC=3 is higher, and if I need to draw it first, and increase the counters to play it later, I'll much probably just play it using lands.

I mean, all that considering I don't have an obvious play that calls for the fourth counter, like beeing totally manascrewed, or tutoring Ringleader with a Vialed Matron the turn before, or 2+ Ringleaders, maybe with a low land count, in my opening hand, or something.


Anyway, I don't play the deck a lot, so there's always a big chance that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and maybe I'll learn if I keep playing it.
: )

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Originally Posted by luckme10

Worth using this?
Goblin Tunneler - {1}{R}
Creature -- Goblin Rogue
1/1
{T}: Target creature with power 2 or less is unblockable this turn.

I feel like they just gave goblins the crack in the dam.

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Would only be good as a singleton to be searched when needed for the win with Piledriver. Too weak otherwise.