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It seems like it being slower seems to give it a bit more resilience in a BUG infested Meta which seems to be the case for the SCG Open series at the moment. Against them you arent really needing the speed as much, he is sculpting his hands more to beat whatever he wants to be able to beat at the time. I just wonder, what does he do vs a Thalia G1?
If you're facing a lot of real decks, I could believe going off on turn 4 or 5. Playing vs live opponents is where extra cantrips shine. You don't mull as hard which leads to more consistent goldfishes around turn 3 and the ability to win through disruption/countermagic on turn 4 or 5.
Yeah, the other issue is hitting Threshold and grinding out Spell Pierce and Daze is a definite strategy by turn 4, with 16 cantrips pretty much guaranteeing Threshold past turn 3 you've got plenty of reasons to take your time vs RUG and its ilk.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I think the only criticism I have with the deck is the City of Brass, because 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island and 1 Swamp with a Tropical Island in the SB is really where you want to be as far as the manabase is concerned. At least he got rid of that awful Badlands tho', you just don't want any land that'll open you up to Wasteland unnecessarily and the Volcanic Island is already pushing it.
I also think he kind of under values Cabal Therapy with the way his deck grinds thru' cantrips, something like a 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Duress package is probably better off for the long game.
City of brass and gemstone mine should never be included in ANT. You could just run more fetches to fetch basics or just more basics. Colorscrew shouldn't happen with 16 cantrips almost ever.
As for whether this list is better than lists with grim tutor I'm not completely sure. With 16 cantrips it's certainly easy to sideboard what with shaving some cantrips to board in cards. I'd have to test the deck to see if it's better than grim ANT.
slower doesn't mean resiliency - Shaman is a problem, anti-wasteland building is overrated, rainbow lands simply do not belong to Ant build, 16 cantrips are just cantrips into cantrips - 14 could be good, mulligans? you don't unless its complete (match-up) garbage
I'd not feel bad about UBG match-up, the builds tend to be aggressive, abandon Fow, multiple counters and tempo elements, incarnations like Agent Bug are simply stupid (taste a build with Confidant, Hymn, Fow and CB-top main, still winable)
The cantripping into cantrips point is being take too far IMO, Gitaxian Probe isn't a cantrip so much as it is a mystery card, Ponder shuffles and Pre-Ordain scrys so if you think far enough ahead in order to know what cards you need and what cards you don't then you wont encounter situations where you reveal nothing but another cantrip that often. Also double or even tripple cantrip hands are a lot better than double or even tripple tutor hands, you really don't want to have to expose your manabase with Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor for a copy of a card in your hand unless you have to, because that tempo burn is even worse than cantrip t1, cantrip, cantrip t2Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I feel like between preordain taking out its own trash, ponder shuffling away crap, and fetches for BS you should be fine. I personally would cut down a preordain or two for another discard spell or two. Like 2 thoughseize or go up to the full therapy.
Abrubt Decay is very good against CB, but do we need more green cards against other match-ups?
SB: 4 Dread of Night
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Abrubt decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
This is my current SB with pretty standard MD (15 lands, 16 accel, 14 cantrips, 5 Tutors, 7 discard, 2 engine and ToA)
I know the SB is very lean, but so far it works really good. I also do not have that much problems with BUG (Control/Tempo) when playing 9 discard spels after boarding.
I am very interested in the thoughts here on the Source.
Greetz Zieby
Play 12 cantrips and only 4 IT instead of 8 cantrips and 6/7 tutors give you more resilience, but the deck is less explosive. Infact you have to manipulate more in order to find the right cards, and that means that you have a +1 turn kill on average with 12 cantrips.
I went for 12 cantrips version during Amsterdam GP, where Missteps were going to slow all the decks in metagame and where Thalia did not exist. And in that metagame it was a fine choise.
Right now Misstep has gone, and we need to be fast vs some deck in order to prevent some bad cards ( Thalia - HtT ) or we must have a solution to them.
So imho the best now is to play the fastest version as possible without bad cards as long as possible.
TES imho is not a good choise, becouse I personally hate Chrome mox and I want a very high number of fetchlands in order to optimize my cantrips, and avoiding random lose due to a wasteland.
Don't like abrupt decay too much, becouse I need to play a 4c combo without golden lands.. And imho this is pretty bad.
Right now Decay resolve this problems:
-counterbalance
-random bears like gaddock thalia ( spending 3 mana) Meddling Mage without a mother of runes on board.
-sciaman (really a problem?)
but do not resolve for example Leyline of Sanctity.
-Bears are resolved (better) by Pyroclasm and Dread of Night.
-Leyline of sanctity is resolved by chain of vapor.
So we have 5 cards in the sideboard (decay) to resolve only counterbalance (losing maybe later by a fow hidden by Top)--> Not in my sideboard ;)
Done modding to Inaki's maindeck. This thing is going to be fun, yet give me fits I think. With the mana infinito listing maindeck and 4 swarm, 3 chain/decay/crypt, 2 karakas SB, there isn't a single Warrens in the 75. Is it really that superfluous and/or what would you cut for it?
Typically by the time you are casting EtW, it's too slow to be an effective win condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
T1, T2 is fine ... I dislike the card in general, still remains mvp in my sideboardQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
What MD cards come out after you board in almost all of your board vs CB-Top? You said post SB you play with 11 protection spells + 3 AD so that makes it 14 cards vs CB-Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigyn
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
Yeah, I dindn't count the abrupt decays as protection, If you count them as protection, that makes 14 cards, you're right. The other 7 protection spells are (4 Duress+3 Cabal therapy)
My current plan vs CB is the following:
+4 Xantid Swarm
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Bayou (I have only 1 trop MD, I tried 2 Gemnstones like Adam Prosak's build, but I think my manabase is more Wasteland-proof, and is better finding the green for SB cards.
-4 Gitaxian probe
-2 Preordain (1 Grim+2 Preordain Build)
-1 Lotus petal/Cabal ritual (I'm not sure of it, need to test it more).
-1 Island (2 Maindeck)
Greetings!
I assume he plays 7 Protection in the maindeck allready (14 total, 7 out of the board means 7 stayed, right?). That leaves us with 7 slots to swap. I think when you want to grind them out you'll propably get rid of some of the tutors and some mana. I don't know exactly how much value the Probes give, as they provide information so you don't have to waste a disruption spell on irrelevant stuff, but I guess you board them out as you have Decay & Swarms.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
Edit: forgot the bayou =/
Attention: This is just how I ASSUME the boarding plan is!
-4 Probe -1 Grim Tutor -1 Cabal Ritual -2 Preordain +4 swarm +3 Decay +1 Bayou
or
-4 Probe -2 Grim Tutor -1 something -1 Cabal +8 above mentioned
That's just how I'd propably board with the thought of grinding the matchup out.
I am not completely sure on my current list as I have been trying to go back to UBw for the Moment. I feel IGG gives me an edge in the current local metagame as it feels more explosive. Haven't been testing the BUG matchup extensively, yet. Deathrite makes IGG worse by taking away tutors in the yard, but PiF has the same problem and I figured it's probably slower -> more time for them -> it's more likely they have shaman up in my comboturn.
Being a lucksack helps in the CBtop matchup when you play the DDShelldockEmrakul Plan. It's way worse than Decay, I assume, but no one expects it and it wins quite fast which looks promising on paper. Time will tell.
I use the IGG slot for flex slot, between IGG and EtW depending on what I expect to face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
Thanks for the advice ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by egosum
Current progress report: Deck continues to confound. I hate Infernal Tutor, not used to working with the LED interactions at all (typically work with raw mass draw or Demonic/Eladamri/1-mana-Miracle tutors). What's the general look of a hand that can be expected to curve out well? Two lands, disruption, Cabal/LED, tutor, a couple of cantrips? Delta, Duress, Ponder, Preordain, LED, Cabal, Cabal seems shaky, though T1 Ponder seems like a decent fix.
Thus far been drawing shittons of discard during goldfishing, would be inclined to cut a discard spell for basically anything atm. A single slot of raw draw, a Snapcaster or something seem like they'd be at home here.
1-2 discard is good. 3 and more is starting to push its usefulness... EXCEPT against RUG/tempo builds. The more controlling decks (UW, BUG-walkers/still, etc) are looking to play more board control rather than taxing counters (Team America, RUG, Stoneblade). I think Stoneblade is one of our more difficult matchups due to discard+counters+threat. Having too many discard spells there without the ability to start up a tutor chain is what will be challenging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Cabal Therapy also allows you to gut your hand of extra discard spells.
Yeah, noticed that amusing interaction earlier.
EDIT: A random idea: Singleton Sylvan Library? If we have Tropical and/or Bayou main anyway, plus a ton of fetches, Library could be amazing.
Sensei's Divining Top is better here. You get to cash in whenever you need the extra card, and also setup plays with LED + Spintop.