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Leaving in the Silences is fine as your best shot against D&T is to never let a hatebear resolve in the first place. Especially now with new hatebears printed and the deck being so popular, discarding one random bear just to watch 'em having/topdecking a second is miserable.
Boarding in the previous SB Tropical Island was still an option
Hey everyone. A question:
I'm playing the TES list from Bryant's latest report (3 silence/4 therapy, sb pyroblasts) postboard (-1 ponder -1 rite of flame +2 pyroblast) vs UW Stoneblade. He taps out turn 4 for Jace at 19 life, I EOT blast a Meddling Mage then untap and make 18 Goblins. Thoughtseize discarded Jitte leaving StP and Pierce. On his turn he Jacestorms, then plays Stoneforge Mystic finding Batterskull. My draw for turn is Burning Wish (I've already wished 3 times, for Thoughtseize, Rite of Flame, and EtW). His board is Jace, Meddling Mage naming Infernal Tutor, SFM, 5 lands including a tapped Mishra's Factory. Do I attack the Jace?
Next turn Meddling Mage, Skull and Jace will remove 3 Goblins (15 total) putting him to 8 (19-15+4) after the lifegain and the following turn you will deal 11 (15-4, SFM in addition this turn) against his lifegain putting him at 1 (8+4-11). A third turn would deal 7 (if he sacrifices the Jace) against his maximum of 5 life after lifegain (plz forgive possible mistakes). Problem is that this includes no additional removal/creatures in the mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by pg8
Forgot to mention, he tapped out on turn 4 for Jace fateseal, so the Jace is at 5 counters on the turn where I'm considering attacking it. That means that if I want to kill Jace this turn, I send 7 tokens at it and 11 at him. He will probably block 2 and go to 10 (I'm fairly sure he shuffled away StP with the stoneforge trigger) this turn, with Batterskull coming in the following turn and the Mishra's Factory untapping. This means that if he didn't keep the StP, I can get him to 1 (with 13 tokens remaining), but if he did keep it I'm in worse shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
What about casting wish for PiF and flashback TS on Batterskull? Then its definately game over. Did you have enough mana to do so?
Otherwise i would not attack jace to race the batterskull.
It always drives me insane when people ask these questions without saying their lands in play and the rest of the relevant info. If you have 100 lands in play, you attack him, wish for Tendrils, and kill him. If you have 0 mana, you attack him since you can't beat the cards you know he has if you kill Jace and have to hope he brainstorms into nothing to deal with the tokens (8 attack jace, 10 at him, he blocks 2, goes to 11, untaps, puts in skull, blocks with Factory, MM, germ, takes 13 gaining 4, putting him at 2, then is beating you from there. Ignoring Jace, attack for 18, he blocks 2, goes to 3, untaps, brainstorms, puts in Bskull, blocks with germ, MM, factory, pumps factory, swords factory going to 6, takes 13 gaining 4, going to dead.). Since it's a lot more likely that you're somewhere in the middle of these two scenarios, you have to account for how much mana you have and being able to wish for Tendrils/Grapeshot/Past in Flames.Quote:
Originally Posted by pg8
I've just had a significantly different experience with Storm in the metagame post True Name Nemesis, against decks with linear disruption, i.e. RUG or Death&Taxes where the disruption falls along the lines of counter spells or hate bears than Silence excels at what it does, but once you face decks that differentiate their disruption along the lines of counter spells, hate bears and discard the card is over loaded. I agree Silence is good against a lot of tertiary cards, but discard is good against a lot of tertiary cards as well (Counterbalance and Vendillion Clique because Miracles is everywhere) and even tho' Silence forces the opponent to RFG cards or spend mana it just doesn't seem to be as important as stopping cards from reaching the board and locking you down. We can fight most decks 1 for 1 or better than 1 for 1 with our disruption, it's Counterbalance, Vendillion Clique, Thoughtseize or to a lesser extent Meddling Mage that really does us over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Brainstorm isn't a hard counter vs discard, you just cast it on the turn you are going to go off and you've mitigated the problem, and it's easier to cast discard on the same turn you are going to go off than Silence anyway.
I don't see how multiple Surgical Extraction is any less awful than Bribery in the SB, you're playing a SB card that goes all in vs Reanimator where I'm playing a single SB card that's useful vs Reanimator, Show&Tell and Dredge or other combo if I switched to Telemin's Performance. I really don't feel comfortable with Goblins and a Draw 7 as my only outs vs Reanimator or Show&Tell, especially without Silence. I don't really know what it takes to make the Reanimator match up positive, I just think Reanimator and Show&Tell have strategy superiority vs us and we need to either let the metagame take care of them or make as few concessions to them as possible - where discard and Bribery are subtle non over reactions. I've had some reasonable success interacting with their strategy with discard, I think it's better than Silence there as well fwiw.
I'm not sure how good Xantid Swarm is vs Reanimator, I just like having the easy mode button vs Show&Tell and Merfolk and need to replace more of my disruption in the event of Leyline than you do.
At the end IDK, maybe all you're facing is RUG, BUG and Patriot or something, I find once decks hit that third or god forbid fouth angle of attack Silence is just too specific to keep playing. It also may have a lot to do with the coin flip, because Silence is significantly better on the play than it is on the draw. Maybe you cut the SB Xantid Swarms, play MD Silence and then board out Silence for discard assumming their hate is at its most linear pre-board and most differentiate post-board? Is REB really any better than Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize post-board anyway when they're addressing the same problems?
I just think our disruption is the only thing we can change to really address the metagame, if Reanimator gets out of hand then people will realize that Deathrite Shaman isn't enough and go back to putting 3 graveyard hate cards in their SB. That should give us a little more breathing room, sometimes you just have to wait these kinds of things out
@Final Fortune
I just agree with you on that latest post somehow ... I've always been living this with TES...
I sometime moved to ANT 3 B.Wish list, in here I played the 4C.T. 3 Duress and 2IoK +1 Duress (now will become T.SEize) from side and was strong at least vs Sneak and reanimator.
In TES is just it's always been a tough match up - Reanimator... but now moving even from no Duress base, its even worse... I really don't think+2 surgical will help that match... as you put out 1 XAntid slot.
Rellated to Bribery, tested and noticed that vs REanimtor, - twice, - the times I've been able to use Bribery has been the times that I've not need them as had other way. I evaluated the options of Bribery, also noticed that the 2 Blue mana requirement as only viable via LED, so this leads us to 1 possibility - having at least 1 LED plus 1 B.W. I still will keep out the bribery... but sometimes I'll missed Lem too..., not from the moment. but I'll tell you when!
a) Stitill think that the Xantid + Silence Strategy in TES vs Reanimator/Sneak is valid as we asume we'll be faster and assumes to win even post Griselbrand becasue of Silence + XAntid Effect.
b) The ANt 3 Burning aprroach is different as we asume we'll not be as fasters and we therefore will need to continusously disgregard its strategy or win, that measn having Silence in here or XAntid is nonsense unless you expect Lyeline, therefore the EvenSide Strtegy is to just add more discard... my friend and I are thinking in the new Strategy and for sure several Extirpate effects will go in... 10 discard effects plus 3 extirpate means: no blue controls will win you at its simplest ;)
I've tested the b) into a) and just still prefer to play any number of Silence, don't ask me why. I was one of the boys tat suggested increment of C.Therapy! just after tested the Timo List, I just asked my self .... even we play EtW base... but please keep in the silence...
Also don't forget Brybery is huge vs MUD!
@Bryant
Related to the Royce Walter question what would you have done?:
a) put 8 goblins or
b) Scalding turn pass the turn?
Went 6-1-1 at a win-a-mox last night with TES. Lost in the semis and came in third. beat DNT twice only boarding on the draw, -2 ponder +1 thoughtseize +1 Chain of vapor. no boarding on the play. Lost to shardless bug.
Question about sideboarding in the miracles matchup. I'm playing the same list as the primer -1 surgical and +1 chain. I appear to have 5 cards to board in: 2 pyroblast, 2 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tendrils. The cards I am taking out right now are: 1 Mox, 1 Ponder, 1 Empty and 1 IT. What else should I take out? Since I am bringing in more protection I could take out a therapy or I could only bring in one blast. What are your thoughts?
A second Ponder or a Silence. Your call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wombo Combo
I would’ve played Tarn and passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
You clearly like to put all of your Eggs in one basket. You just love discard spells! I have a crazy idea - Raven’s Crime for post-Ad Nauseam? Think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
By playing an all discard suite you’ve become too linear yourself, I prefer diverse protection and I do quite well. If you’re absolutely fine getting wrecked by top decks, Brainstorms and Sensei’s Diving Tops then play more discard. I honestly don’t care how you perform in a tournament setting, I just play the cards that give me the best chances of winning. At the moment those are four Cabal Therapy and three Silence, if the metagame shifts dramatically I could see myself playing two Thoughtseize over Silence, but I still wouldn’t cut it completely.
Or, they let it resolve and show you one of the other counterspells they can cast. Sure, discard is easier to cast, it’s also less effective against the blue decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Good luck resolving a five mana spell against them and not just be able to win with something else. They have dramatically different roles, the issue with Reanimator is that they’re just as fast as us but get discard and countermagic. We’re looking to buy time in that match-up and disrupt them - Bribery doesn’t do that. If I wanted to play a five mana sorcery in my board that does nothing it would be Temporal Fissure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I do play against those decks quite frequently, as they’re all very popular decks. One of the issues with playing all discard and not Pyroblast is that you can’t deal with a resolved Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish. Because I’m not boarding in Abrupt Decay versus the Patriot decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I’m not sure how I feel about Xantid Swarm at the moment, I don’t like it or hate it. But it hasn’t been as great lately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...oria-BC-Canada
Ok folks. I have a tournament report for you here!
Greetings from the northwest :)
Well done BrettF:
D&T seems to be a good matchup overall altough i've some issues with my Ant build actually.
Can you tell me,how was your disruption suite: 4 theraphy 3 Silence.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
really great except for silence vs bug is not amazing.
I never said Bribery solves the Reanimator match up, I said Bribery solves the problem with Burning Wish vs Reanimator in the sense that we don't want to spin the wheel with Diminishing Returns vs a deck with counters or commit to the board with Empty the Warrens vs a deck with Griselbrand, Emakrul or Elesh Norn. You always seem to have another way to win, well I don't always draw Burning Wish and another way to win every game and would prefer to always have a clean out. The Reanimator match up is bad and there's not a lot we can do about it, the times I do get to go off I want to be certain that I finish the game. You're right in the sense that we need to buy time vs them, Silence doesn't buy time vs them and Discard does and the match up became worse when we replaced Duress with Cabal Therapy. Bribery, for me, is something of a concession to playing discard in the same way the 4th Chrome Mox is a concession to playing Thoughtseize in the sense that I can no longer win uncontested with a Diminishing Returns after a resolved Silence so I need that out more than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Like I said it's situational argumentation, you say I get wrecked by Sensei's Divining Top and I say you get wrecked by Counterbalance but if they resolve Sensei's Divining Top they have to have the counter on top of their deck as well where Counterbalance is guaranteed to stop or disrupt us. I also don't buy the Silence solves all of our problems vs multiple counters and Duress doesn't argument, because the problem with Silence is that even when you draw out a counter you don't know whether or not he has another counter left so you can't know whether or not you can go all in or you have to wait. Even in the event discard removes one counter spell and sees the other counter you're now playing with perfect information and know to wait, so yes if Silence resolves you just win but if it gets countered you are in the dark.
I'm not convinced Silence is better than discard vs blue decks at all, RUG is dying and the age where all we had to deal with was counters and Wasteland is over. When we have to deal with Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage and Toughtseize our strategy is the linear strategy because it doesn't interact with their strategy at all and our protection can no longer stop them from playing the majority of their disruption.
I don't see any reason playing 7 MD discard spells prohibits us from playing SB Pyroblasts, I probably see less resolved Meddling Mages than you do on account of Thoughtseize but -1 Infernal Tutor, +1 Pyrblast is a pretty common SBing plan for me so I can Ad Nauseam, remove the Meddling Mage and tutor for Tendrils of Agony.
I'm not saying discard isn't without its demerrits, I'm saying Silence isn't as good as it used to be a post True Name Nemesis metagame where RUG has been dethroned, MDs are playing counters and discard and SBs are filled with hate bears. Yes discard has its own problems, but ANT seems to do better than TES regardless of playing an all discard disruption suite so it'd seem an all discard disruption suite isn't prohibitive to a Storm deck being competitive and right now discard seems to be addressing what's actually in the metagame more than Silence.
I think we need the faster, more versatile and more efficient albeit weaker card right now because double Spell Snare is the least of our problems.
You should compare a resolved discard spell to a resolved silence and a countered discard spell to a countered silence and not the other way around. In my world, after my discard spell got countered, I am in the dark too ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Close, but not entirely true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Silence will always get countered when that's an option, simply because the opponent knows he's lost if he doesn't.
Discard is more often not countered, because letting it resolve isn't an auto-loss. You could still use the other counterspell you may have.
Discard does give the opponent more to think about, which provokes mistakes from weaker players.
Both types of cards have their merits. One important one not mentioned yet: Silence is the better card in the mirror. Never forget about that.
Thats right. But you are still in the dark. If I do not counter your discard spell you might pick my last counter spell and see the coast is clear. If I counter your discard with my last counter spell it might imply to you that I have still more counter spells and want to hide perfect information about my hand. So you might take the gamble and go off or you play it safe and wait for another chance. So you are indeed in the dark here but it is right...Silence gets countered on a more regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
In the combo matchups I love the card. Helped me more than once in responce to my opponents Griselbrand drawing cards while I was going off and its really good in the storm mirror too ;)
Greetings Chris
Yeah that argument doesnt make any sense. Im probably dead in these sb games by the time i am able to resolve hand hate and see they have no more interaction compared to your proposed wait and draw more protection plan. You just have to go for it way more often which silence is better at.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, you were arguing Surgical Extraction versus Bribery and then switched topics. I’d like you to point out where you mentioned Burning Wish was the issue. Sure, the two Wish targets you mentioned aren’t great in the match-up but Past in Flames and Tendrils of Agony are both fantastic, even Grapeshot. Due to their discard, PIF is an option and the two storm cards are highly relevant due to all the damage they do to themselves with fetches, Thoughtseize, Force of Will and Reanimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You also didn’t mention how we bring in Xantid Swarm which often turns on Diminishing Returns.
There is something we can do about it! That’s my point. We can play Surgical Extraction! It’s just as fast as they are and doesn’t slow us down and is much easier to resolve than a five mana sorcery.
Silence buys more time than discard against a deck as redundant as Reanimator. Once they get a creature in the Graveyard, they likely have more than one animate spell in their Grip.
This is flawed logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
We’ve adapted to fix this while being well rounded. Your suggestion of being completely linear leaves us weaker against more cards, we have Cabal Therapy for those things as well. There’s no reason to leave ourselves cold to Tops and draw spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
In your previous post you recommended not playing Pyroblast. Pick a side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Maybe you should play ANT then? What’s better after Goblins hit the board a discard spell or a Silence? I’d say I win almost as many games with Goblins as I do Tendrils of Agony. These aren’t the same decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
There’s a list of cards that Silence is better against than discard spells. Snare is one of them. How about Stifle? Just one example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune