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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
- If the game goes long enough, you will have Pia/Kiran, a lot of lands, and a Karakas - eventually you get your infinite Lingering Souls, which is a very strong late game. DnT's normal late game is SfM and busted equipment, which is usually enough to outclass any fair deck that isn't playing TNN+Jitte. But the current deck to beat's end game is Snapcaster+Kolaghan's Command, which ends up being a pretty good answer to SfM. I don't think you can just rely on the equipment package to always get you there, even game 1 (usually the freebie, since people don't tend to play artifact destruction main.)
- I think your argument about 22/23/24 is true when it's in reference to observations over a small sample set. But over a long set of matches with 'generic DnT curve' I've been short mana more often than I've flooded with 23, which is why I think normal DnT wants something like 23.5 and a deck with an especially high curve should sit comfortably at 24. Likewise I've felt generally fine with 13 pure white sources and a tiny bit short on white when I have 12 pure white sources in my deck.
The statistical differences in both cases might be marginal - e.g. someone just won a GP with 22 lands and 12 white sources, clearly it's not unplayable - but if you play and test any deck enough, you do observe patterns, even from marginal differences, so it's not like we should just shrug and conclude that only a higher power could know the truth about our manabase. You test and make changes based on long-term patterns you see.
- I agree that Sorcerous Spyglass is probably better than people give it credit for, and I expect it to be played a decent amount. For Eldrazi it might be close to a strictly-better Pithing Needle, since it isn't a non-bo with Chalice.
My experience with Czech Pile is I don't want the game to go long, because they have plenty of ways to establish 2-for-1s. I see it the same way I viewed the old Miracle matches, where if I didn't even have a Recruiter of the Guards, I couldn't really afford to play the long game when they have Entreat the Angels and Mentor. I think I'd rather play an extra Magus of the Moon to increase the probability of locking them out, rather than trying to grind them out with a card I may not even be able to cast/ combo with. It's about 55% of having one or more Karakas by turn 7, and it's going to be quite a lower with other factors (e.g having Pia and Kia ready to resolve, Wasteland, having Karakas ready, etc.) But if you frequently grind them out with P&K, I'd be interested in retesting it.
Even given a substantial number of matches, it's difficult to establish with any confidence "oh yes I feel extra flooding with 24 lands after this many games" when this could easily be confirmation bias. And perceptions of flooding also vary match to match: how many lands at a given number of turns is 'too much'? I guess the other relevant question is given that you do draw the extra 24th land, how much does this help us vs how much does this hurt us? So an optimal solution is difficult to obtain.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Even given a substantial number of matches, it's difficult to establish with any confidence "oh yes I feel extra flooding with 24 lands after this many games" when this could easily be confirmation bias. And perceptions of flooding also vary match to match: how many lands at a given number of turns is 'too much'? I guess the other relevant question is given that you do draw the extra 24th land, how much does this help us vs how much does this hurt us? So an optimal solution is difficult to obtain.
I broadly agree with what you're saying, but if you go too far in that direction it becomes impossible to make any sort of claim ever. There may not be an optimal solution to our manabase - just like there's never going to be an optimal decklist for any constantly shifting meta. But you play a lot of games and you make adjustments based on long-term patterns you' observe - that's just how deckbuilding works. You can avoid confirmation bias in this process by...well...avoiding confirmation bias.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Maybe you have your decks turned around, or perhaps I'm just missing sarcasm, but big red is a mono-red chalice stompy list. I can't imagine Rite of Flame helping.
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After reading your report again I noticed you bring in canonist vs Miracles iatee. Has that been particularly good? Is it just to shut off a string of cantrips? Also you’ve played 1 relic-warder for a long time. Other than the obvious stuff (blade decks, sneak/omni, the mirror) when have you found it to be good that you always play one?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I've also been playing a singleton Leonin Relic-Warder for many moons now, and I guess its effectiveness very much depends on your local metagame. Pre-board, it's a very potent tutor target when an "unexpected" permanent threatens to make you lose the game. Prime target in that regard is Sylvan Library for me, but snagging away a Molten Vortex or even Sulfuric Vortex at the right moment also wins games. I also like the way it hates on Chalice of the Void (at one mana less than Flickerwisp) and Mox Diamond et al. It also provides really great utility in the mirror, where it works as a one-sided Phyrexian Revoker for equipment and Aether Vials.
Granted my evaluation of its value might be skewed, because I've been on the very lucky side of it turning up in my hand far too many times. It's really just priceless to reveal it from a Show and Tell, and neuter Omniscience on the spot. Even if all else fails, it's a 2-toughness body for CMC 2, which isn't completely useless even without a decent target for its ETB trigger.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LyleCInDaHouse
This sounds closer to 5c humans than a true D&T list (still a good deck, just a different one).
As for Hokori, I've been running it online with some great success. I think it helps shore up the matchups with mana hungry decks like Grixis Control or Czech Pile.Plus it makes lands players cry deeply. Didn't think of adding Sword of Feast and Famine, but seems legit (I had just been abusing Karaks, went up to four copies).
It's still very much D&T, just with a bit of 'flavor'
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Daxos of Meletis
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Necropouncer
8 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
2 Cloudchaser Kestrel
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
I love the main for the most part, but there are two obvious cards I'm still testing. So far Necropouncer is wicked. It's a lot more subtle to see, but you're only getting a 3/1 the turn you drop it. Beyond that, it's the P/T bump and haste you want. I won a few games off the surprise factor of vialing in something, suiting it up, and swinging right then. Haste is a nice effect to have when you need to put pressure on.
Daxos has been cool so far, but I usually forget that I can cast the crap he exiles. If he pulls your opponent's removal, or Kommand, or a dude, they're in for a rough ride. Ever cast a Ponder off a Wasteland? That was cool too. I nicknamed him Yasuo for those of you familiar with League of Legends.
Harsh Mentor is a mean little dude. He's really good in the mirror, or vs anything that relies on Deathrite or fetches. Possibly decent vs Elves also, although most of their mana dorks are unaffected and that's really where the issue with that matchup lies.
Kambal can use the same justifications as Canonist for the most part.
Meddling Mage is another one I've had my eye on for years and always wanted to play. If there ever was a deck it belongs in, it feels like it's this deck. Naming creatures with it seems good, considering I have Prelates for everything else. Being able to prevent ridiculous bullshit (True Name, Leovold, Kommand, Emrakul, etc) before it becomes an issue seems very good.
Kestrel I initially included to hedge some bets against DoN and Eldrazi.dec. Blowing up the former, and giving the latter a color to enable Mom seems useful. It turns out to also be yet another card to bump up the Show and Tell matchup, not that we need much help there. While also blowing up crap like Sylvan Library, Deed, Leylines, and whatever else is annoying. Plus fringe uses for detaching equips from pro-white dudes, consolidating the colors of opponent's creatures for Mom, machine gunning down an opponent's x/1 dorks with DoN in play, etc.
If only there was another little monowhite/human dork that hated on graveyards... Or blew up artifacts... OH Relic-Warder... Thanks iatee, completely forgot about that guy. Seems better than the 4th Prelate.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marungo
After reading your report again I noticed you bring in canonist vs Miracles iatee. Has that been particularly good? Is it just to shut off a string of cantrips? Also you’ve played 1 relic-warder for a long time. Other than the obvious stuff (blade decks, sneak/omni, the mirror) when have you found it to be good that you always play one?
Ethersworn Canonist has always been fine against Miracles since it shuts off Snapcaster - before Top's banning I would bring it in when I didn't have enough strong anti-Miracles cards to bring in. That was partly why I brought it in in the games I did - but also I think it's gotten better now for two reasons:
- They've replaced Top with more cantrips, so they don't play draw-go as much and have to cast a ton of cantrips just to find action
- Vs. Mentor specifically, Canonist didn't stop you from dying to double-Top, but now it stops them from going crazy.
Relic-Warder is indeed a fixed card in my sideboard, and it's been so consistently good for me over the time that I'm surprised he isn't considered a fixed spot in the DnT 75. Using one sideboard spot to ensure that you have a tutorable, Aether-Vialable disenchant always seems worth it.
Outside of the obvious Stoneblade/SnT decks and the obvious enchantment/artifact based decks (Enchantress, Aluren, MUD, Painter) there's a pretty wide set of matches where he can usually provide some sort of disruption. vs Reanimator and Storm, you can sometimes pick off an early Lotus Petal and if you're lucky you can get a high-value target like Dread of Night, Animate Dead, LED, etc. It might not always have a target vs those guys, but it's cheap and it's disruption, so you play it. Vs. Eldrazi you can generally pick off a Chalice, and sometimes you'll get a Jitte. Vs. those Big Red decks there is no shortage of targets - it's mana disruption, it eats Chalices, it eats Bridges. Vs. Lands he's similar to Revoker - Mox Diamond or Molten Vortex - but if they do Vortex him, the trigger stack ensures that it's gone forever.
There are some downsides to the card, he's a WW-not human but you often need him out early, which means the number of games I've had to put a Cavern on Cleric is definitely >0. And then there's the fact that they can get their stuff back, which is not the case with a Disenchant or Council's Judgment. But those cards aren't tutorable, don't attack for 2, and don't get to come into play for 0 mana via Aether Vial. I hope they print a better Relic-Warder one day, a pushed Disenchant human would be really nice. But until then I think he's the best option we have.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthVicious
It's still very much D&T, just with a bit of 'flavor'
4
Flickerwisp3
Mother of Runes3
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben3
Stoneforge Mystic3
Serra Avenger3
Sanctum Prelate2
Recruiter of the Guard1
Mirran Crusader1
Mangara of Corondor1
Thalia, Heretic Cathar1
Daxos of Meletis4
Aether Vial4
Path to Exile1
Umezawa's Jitte1
Batterskull1
Necropouncer8
Plains4
Karakas4
Cavern of Souls4
Rishadan Port4
Wasteland2
Kambal, Consul of Allocation2
Harsh Mentor2
Orzhov Pontiff2
Ethersworn Canonist2
Meddling Mage2
Cloudchaser Kestrel1
Hokori, Dust Drinker1
Leonin Relic-Warder1
Sword of Feast and Famine
I love the main for the most part, but there are two obvious cards I'm still testing. So far Necropouncer is wicked. It's a lot more subtle to see, but you're only getting a 3/1 the turn you drop it. Beyond that, it's the P/T bump and haste you want. I won a few games off the surprise factor of vialing in something, suiting it up, and swinging right then. Haste is a nice effect to have when you need to put pressure on.
Daxos has been cool so far, but I usually forget that I can cast the crap he exiles. If he pulls your opponent's removal, or Kommand, or a dude, they're in for a rough ride. Ever cast a Ponder off a Wasteland? That was cool too. I nicknamed him Yasuo for those of you familiar with League of Legends.
Harsh Mentor is a mean little dude. He's really good in the mirror, or vs anything that relies on Deathrite or fetches. Possibly decent vs Elves also, although most of their mana dorks are unaffected and that's really where the issue with that matchup lies.
Kambal can use the same justifications as Canonist for the most part.
Meddling Mage is another one I've had my eye on for years and always wanted to play. If there ever was a deck it belongs in, it feels like it's this deck. Naming creatures with it seems good, considering I have Prelates for everything else. Being able to prevent ridiculous bullshit (True Name, Leovold, Kommand, Emrakul, etc) before it becomes an issue seems very good.
Kestrel I initially included to hedge some bets against DoN and Eldrazi.dec. Blowing up the former, and giving the latter a color to enable Mom seems useful. It turns out to also be yet another card to bump up the Show and Tell matchup, not that we need much help there. While also blowing up crap like Sylvan Library, Deed, Leylines, and whatever else is annoying. Plus fringe uses for detaching equips from pro-white dudes, consolidating the colors of opponent's creatures for Mom, machine gunning down an opponent's x/1 dorks with DoN in play, etc.
If only there was another little monowhite/human dork that hated on graveyards... Or blew up artifacts... OH Relic-Warder... Thanks iatee, completely forgot about that guy. Seems better than the 4th Prelate.
Necropouncer is way too expensive to play. In fact, I wouldn't play it even if it was 3 cmc. This deck already has a hard time casting Batterskull. Playing Thalia + Wasteland means you're going down on mana pretty often. There's also the fact that without blue cantrips, it's within variance to be stuck on 2-3 lands for a long time.
I also test a human build and of those cards you mentioned, Daxos is really interesting and I never considered it before. Thanks for the idea!
I've tested Kambal and Harsh Mentor and they were awful in a diverse range of match-ups. They're too situational and require fairly specific scenarios to be effective. I consider Meddling Mage to be a sideboard card. But I just never found the room for it.
Dark Confidant is easily one of the best reasons to go a 4 Cavern of Souls build. It's a must kill threat. Many of the games I win against Czech Pile is when Confidant resolves and they either don't have removal or got locked down by 4 Mother of Runes + 4 Chalice of the Void. Bob helps eliminate aspects of variance in the deck by ensuring you hit your land drops but also have plenty of threats. What is great about Bob is that he is decent in both the fair and unfair match-ups.
I have mixed feelings about Wasteland and Port. I definitely don't believe 4 Port is necessary when it's 90% a late game card and usually not necessary in multiples. 8 colorless lands ruin a lot of good keepable hands. If you play 4 Cavern of Souls, you have even more reason to cut some 1-2 Ports because it makes Wasteland quite good against you. Sometimes we just have to appreciate the simple basic Plains.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Necropouncer is way too expensive to play. In fact, I wouldn't play it even if it was 3 cmc. This deck already has a hard time casting Batterskull. Playing Thalia + Wasteland means you're going down on mana pretty often. There's also the fact that without blue cantrips, it's within variance to be stuck on 2-3 lands for a long time.
I also test a human build and of those cards you mentioned, Daxos is really interesting and I never considered it before. Thanks for the idea!
I've tested Kambal and Harsh Mentor and they were awful in a diverse range of match-ups. They're too situational and require fairly specific scenarios to be effective. I consider Meddling Mage to be a sideboard card. But I just never found the room for it.
Dark Confidant is easily one of the best reasons to go a 4 Cavern of Souls build. It's a must kill threat. Many of the games I win against Czech Pile is when Confidant resolves and they either don't have removal or got locked down by 4 Mother of Runes + 4 Chalice of the Void. Bob helps eliminate aspects of variance in the deck by ensuring you hit your land drops but also have plenty of threats. What is great about Bob is that he is decent in both the fair and unfair match-ups.
I have mixed feelings about Wasteland and Port. I definitely don't believe 4 Port is necessary when it's 90% a late game card and usually not necessary in multiples. 8 colorless lands ruin a lot of good keepable hands. If you play 4 Cavern of Souls, you have even more reason to cut some 1-2 Ports because it makes Wasteland quite good against you. Sometimes we just have to appreciate the simple basic Plains.
Necropouncer and Batterskull usually only cost me :1::w: to get into play... :laugh:
I do have 2 Confidants sitting around, and I do like that 'Bob from Accounting' idea. Maybe I'll shuffle some stuff around to fit him in the main. You'll have some fun with Daxos too ;)
I've played against Mentor with this deck, and just one of them in play deals a lot of damage. Either my opponents play around him and don't use their abilities (which leads to me winning) or they take a boatload of damage over the long run ignoring him (which leads to me winning... usually). Just like so many other cards in this deck, he's another must-answer creature if they're built around using abilities. Like we are with D&T, like Deathrite, fetches, equipment, Lands, etc. Kambal I haven't tested a lot myself, but it seems like he'd be really good vs Storm and somewhere between decent and playable vs cantrip.dec. I use him in my Karlov EDH and I know what he can do if he's ignored, if he's not ignored then one of our other must-answer dudes will beat their face in.
There are times when I can feel what you're mentioning about the manabase, sometimes basic plains is the best land on my side of the table, as weird as that sounds. But I have 4 Ports and I'm using them dammit. Wasteland is the one I want to see the least often, it's the easiest one for opponents to play around. Fetching basics does nothing to stop me from Porting them down. On top of that, after I Waste something, I'm down a land also. It's like the best use of it is to leave it untapped on your side of the field.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthVicious
Necropouncer and Batterskull usually only cost me :1::w: to get into play... :laugh:
I do have 2 Confidants sitting around, and I do like that 'Bob from Accounting' idea. Maybe I'll shuffle some stuff around to fit him in the main. You'll have some fun with Daxos too ;)
I've played against Mentor with this deck, and just one of them in play deals a lot of damage. Either my opponents play around him and don't use their abilities (which leads to me winning) or they take a boatload of damage over the long run ignoring him (which leads to me winning... usually). Just like so many other cards in this deck, he's another must-answer creature if they're built around using abilities. Like we are with D&T, like Deathrite, fetches, equipment, Lands, etc. Kambal I haven't tested a lot myself, but it seems like he'd be really good vs Storm and somewhere between decent and playable vs cantrip.dec. I use him in my Karlov EDH and I know what he can do if he's ignored, if he's not ignored then one of our other must-answer dudes will beat their face in.
There are times when I can feel what you're mentioning about the manabase, sometimes basic plains is the best land on my side of the table, as weird as that sounds. But I have 4 Ports and I'm using them dammit. Wasteland is the one I want to see the least often, it's the easiest one for opponents to play around. Fetching basics does nothing to stop me from Porting them down. On top of that, after I Waste something, I'm down a land also. It's like the best use of it is to leave it untapped on your side of the field.
My experience is good 3-color deck players don't try to play around Wasteland. One of the first few tips a 3-color Delver player receives is to simply fetch duals unless you know a Blood Moon is coming, because getting a basics + dual in play just means you're stuck with a basic after a Wasteland; conversely, fetching two duals will at least get you more colors. The only time this is bad is if your opponent has multiple Wastelands. But with Deathrite Shaman and cantrips, it's not that easy to mana screw a tri-color deck in Legacy (unfortunately). If Deathrite Shaman gets banned, this deck will receive such a big power boost as everything gets better: mana denial, more Swords to Plowshares for other creatures, pushing more damage, etc.
My problem with Mentor is it's irrelevant against a whole variety of combo and aggro decks. Death and Taxes isn't aggro enough to leverage the extra damage over turns, and this is assuming that they have something to activate because often they don't. if Mentor could leverage its damage to creatures for meaningful card advantage, it would be worth playing.
It's the same reason Kambal was terrible in testing: the life gain/loss doesn't translate to meaningful advantage consistently. Of course Kambal is good against Storm, but even there, it's a 3-mana card that takes up spot for things like Ethersworn Canonist and Sanctum Prelate (arguably better options and more versatile). Kambal is not universally relevant to play in the main and not powerful enough in the side.
I had the opportunity to put Daxos into play today but unfortunately, I already locked the game out with other creatures. I'm 95% sure he isn't worth playing but I want to at least have some fun with him.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Sorcerous Spyglass has been superb in testing. There were games where I played 1 in main and games where I just played 1 in the side. Both times, it saved me the game. Being able to see your opponent's hand so that you can proactively lock a key piece rather than reacting to it with Revoker is a big deal. I think those who play traditional DnT will find this card is worth playing because it can not only lock down mana better than Port a good majority of the time but also have other valuable functions.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
are the top 8 decklists of EE going to be released on mtgtop8, mtgdecks etc.? i cant find them. and since it was a major event i would guess so.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FeX
are the top 8 decklists of EE going to be released on mtgtop8, mtgdecks etc.? i cant find them. and since it was a major event i would guess so.
Scroll down past Vintage and you'll see Legacy decklists: http://eemagic.com/allDecks.php
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Sorcerous Spyglass has been superb in testing. There were games where I played 1 in main and games where I just played 1 in the side. Both times, it saved me the game. Being able to see your opponent's hand so that you can proactively lock a key piece rather than reacting to it with Revoker is a big deal. I think those who play traditional DnT will find this card is worth playing because it can not only lock down mana better than Port a good majority of the time but also have other valuable functions.
How does it lock down mana better than Port, exactly? It literally only hits fetchlands.
I agree it's a fantastic card, I don't agree that it locks down mana. The scenario of naming their fetch to "deny mana" is, in my opinion, a fluke, even if occasionally it works. Lands are by far the most common card in literally all but 2 decks IN THE GAME. The percentage to draw one not named by spyglass is high.
I don't think I will use it in DnT. Right now I think Revoker is still better main and needle side. Revoker can name LED/Petal, and needle is faster, and in game 2 I don't think the extra info is worth the extra mana in games past the first one.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Sorcerous Spyglass has been superb in testing. There were games where I played 1 in main and games where I just played 1 in the side. Both times, it saved me the game. Being able to see your opponent's hand so that you can proactively lock a key piece rather than reacting to it with Revoker is a big deal. I think those who play traditional DnT will find this card is worth playing because it can not only lock down mana better than Port a good majority of the time but also have other valuable functions.
Sorcerous Spyglass is a Revoker/Needle for noobs. You should know the metagame and you should be able to deduce depending on the gamestate what card would screw you over the most. Revoker is giving us a body which DnT is build around and Revoker being able to needle mana abilities is also huge when playing against something like ANT or TES. In all other cases I would prefer needle because it's a turn one play, when I bring in needle I probably already know what card to name anyway.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
How does it lock down mana better than Port, exactly? It literally only hits fetchlands.
I agree it's a fantastic card, I don't agree that it locks down mana. The scenario of naming their fetch to "deny mana" is, in my opinion, a fluke, even if occasionally it works. Lands are by far the most common card in literally all but 2 decks IN THE GAME. The percentage to draw one not named by spyglass is high.
I don't think I will use it in DnT. Right now I think Revoker is still better main and needle side. Revoker can name LED/Petal, and needle is faster, and in game 2 I don't think the extra info is worth the extra mana in games past the first one.
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Hilarious. I use the word "can" and you go all crazy on me. Fetchlands are the most common type of lands in the game, so it's not a rare fluke that you name a fetchland off a spyglass when your grixis delver opponent is running 8 fetchlands. How often do you port mana on turn 2? Spyglass comes down on turn 2. But anyways, the main point is that it 'can' be a mana denial tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nielsie
Sorcerous Spyglass is a Revoker/Needle for noobs. You should know the metagame and you should be able to deduce depending on the gamestate what card would screw you over the most. Revoker is giving us a body which DnT is build around and Revoker being able to needle mana abilities is also huge when playing against something like ANT or TES. In all other cases I would prefer needle because it's a turn one play, when I bring in needle I probably already know what card to name anyway.
Knowing the metagame doesn't equate to knowing what cards your opponents have, genius. Knowing what your opponent has to sequence your plays, potentially drop them down 1-2 mana, and not being forced to blind name a card they may not even have (because 90% of the time, the opponent is playing multiple problematic cards) are the main reasons to play Spyglass. And note I'm not saying this card replaces Revoker, which mainly will stay in the deck because it serves as a creature in a vial deck. But the difference in their ability to denial is significant. The problem with Revoker is that it's a very reactive card. When you see a problematic permanent on the field, it's just more rational to the permanent you see instead of something potentially more dangerous hidden behind your opponent's hand. The information you get from Spyglass mitigates these problems and its lack of body is often better, rather than worse.
And yeah I could easily say "Spyglass is also huge when playing against something like Lands or Infect" but it's a terrible argument. A rational person knows the utility of each card. Again I repeat: this card isn't going to replace Revoker; what it has is legitimate strengths in being played in the main or side over other cards.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
[/QUOTE]The problem with Revoker is that it's a very reactive card. When you see a problematic permanent on the field, it's just more rational to the permanent you see instead of something potentially more dangerous hidden behind your opponent's hand. The information you get from Spyglass mitigates these problems and its lack of body is often better, rather than worse. [/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Hilarious. I use the word "can" and you go all crazy on me. Fetchlands are the most common type of lands in the game, so it's not a rare fluke that you name a fetchland off a spyglass when your grixis delver opponent is running 8 fetchlands. How often do you port mana on turn 2? Spyglass comes down on turn 2. But anyways, the main point is that it 'can' be a mana denial tool.
"Can" suggests "should" in the context of theory crafting. Porting on turn 2 is different; it doesn't waste a card, but yes, porting a land on turn 2 happens close to 15% of my games. Its worth noting that my opponent can't "draw out" of a port's tempo-grab, but they can a Spyglass, and if they do, Brainstorming away the named fetch becomes an awesome play, effectively time walking you.
Before, playing two of each blue fetch was a good idea (and a non-0 number of Grixis and 4c control players already do this). Now, if this Spyglass catches on, it will move file folders from "good idea" to "mandatory counter-strategy." Having said this, back in Saviors of Kamigawa, people suggested this same strategy with Needle. As it happened, though, players quickly noticed it to be a 1-2 of in the board, because even though it's uses across legacy are broad, only occasionally is it a necessary element to not losing. It's a surgical instrument specifically for the stymying of a game-winning (e.g. Griselbrand) or game-stopping effect (e.g. DRS against Reanimator). What it is not is a mana-denying element of an aggro-control list. It never panned out as a good enough strategy to do so, and now Spyglass will be no different.
I do think you can use Spyglass better than actual DnT players, since you are on the stompy side of it.
/My thoughts
Crazy isn't the worst thing I've ever been called on these boards, so I guess I'll take it...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
"Can" suggests "should" in the context of theory crafting. Porting on turn 2 is different; it doesn't waste a card, but yes, porting a land on turn 2 happens close to 15% of my games. Its worth noting that my opponent can't "draw out" of a port's tempo-grab, but they can a Spyglass, and if they do, Brainstorming away the named fetch becomes an awesome play, effectively time walking you.
Before, playing two of each blue fetch was a good idea (and a non-0 number of Grixis and 4c control players already do this). Now, if this Spyglass catches on, it will move file folders from "good idea" to "mandatory counter-strategy." Having said this, back in Saviors of Kamigawa, people suggested this same strategy with Needle. As it happened, though, players quickly noticed it to be a 1-2 of in the board, because even though it's uses across legacy are broad, only occasionally is it a necessary element to not losing. It's a surgical instrument specifically for the stymying of a game-winning (e.g. Griselbrand) or game-stopping effect (e.g. DRS against Reanimator). What it is not is a mana-denying element of an aggro-control list. It never panned out as a good enough strategy to do so, and now Spyglass will be no different.
I do think you can use Spyglass better than actual DnT players, since you are on the stompy side of it.
/My thoughts
Crazy isn't the worst thing I've ever been called on these boards, so I guess I'll take it...
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What kind of nonsense logic are you using? How is can = should in any context? One is optional and the other is suggesting imperative. Learn the difference. I can also name situations where glass mana denials better than port but not only is that irrelevant to the discussion it is pointless to cherry pick one specific scenario and say "aha card x is better than card y".
Again, I don't know why you are bringing up pithing needle. Naming a fetchland with needle is 90% a bad play, especially if you are blindly naming something that could be in hand. Stop it with these terrible comparisons please. What a bunch of people talked about in standard numbers of years back has no relevance in evaluating needle as a mana denial tool (i.e it shouldn't be). Mana denial is not why people play needle in the 75 and yet you are making this strange comparison.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The problem with Revoker is that it's a very reactive card. When you see a problematic permanent on the field, it's just more rational to the permanent you see instead of something potentially more dangerous hidden behind your opponent's hand. The information you get from Spyglass mitigates these problems and its lack of body is often better, rather than worse. [/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
What kind of nonsense logic are you using? How is can = should in any context? One is optional and the other is suggesting imperative. Learn the difference. I can also name situations where glass mana denials better than port but not only is that irrelevant to the discussion it is pointless to cherry pick one specific scenario and say "aha card x is better than card y".
Again, I don't know why you are bringing up pithing needle. Naming a fetchland with needle is 90% a bad play, especially if you are blindly naming something that could be in hand. Stop it with these terrible comparisons please. What a bunch of people talked about in standard numbers of years back has no relevance in evaluating needle as a mana denial tool (i.e it shouldn't be). Mana denial is not why people play needle in the 75 and yet you are making this strange comparison.
You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me."
90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.
Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me."
90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.
Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.
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I agree here. Revoker is also a 2/1 for 2 that can come off of Vial in response to a cast permanent that you want to shut off. Being able to shut off mana rocks and mana dorks is a bonus as well. A 2/1 is generally more proactive than a 2 mana artifact in my books. I don't really view D&T as a prison deck. I view it as disruptive aggro. The decks goal is keep your opponent off pace, not lock them out. The games where D&T lock opponents out are generally of the free win variety. In order to swing games in the margin to your favor, pilots need to be using cards like Thalia, Revoker, Rishadan Port etc very effectively. You're going to slightly edge opponents out of games just as often as you lock them out.
I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.
I bring in Pithing Needle to name fetches in exactly one matchup: Storm, because my other cards coming out are an even more anemic.
Also, grayryker, I'm going to suggest that cool your jets. You've been making some pretty aggressively toned posts recently, veering close to personal attacks, and a lot of what you've been saying in here has been detracting from the quality of conversation that usually goes on here.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me." You have the nerve to call me intentionally dense and yet you keep pretending like my position is "use spyglass mainly as a mana denial tool"
90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.
Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.
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You are the one not comprehending what I am saying. I refetenced standard because you brought up the "oh people realized this was how needle should be played". Again, what does that have to do with the strategy now? Both glass and needle are mainly going to be sideboard cards but what makes glass special is it actually has qualities that make it potentially playable in the main (for similar reason revoker is playable in main).
Again, "90%" of the time. You interpret this as a 100%. If you side in needle against a deck and you are using it on a fetchland, then you are doing it wrong. If your opponent misses their land drop, you know their hand, they scry card to bottom, etc. by all means such scenarios will give needle that 10% scenario. Again, you take one part of my argument and distort it to the max. You did the same by taking "can mana denial better than port" and spouting some weird rant about a position I am not taking.
You do realize you can name a card that you did not see even off of glass? It works exactly like needle but with hand information. I can't understand your 2nd paragraph and it may be because you did not read this card properly. It doesn't make sense that needle 'would have been better' in any of the scenarios you listed.
And again, what part of sorcerous spyglass is niche? You side it in the same way you would side in a needle. Of course, needle will sometimes be better but all I ever did was say "look here is a card we shouldn't overlook". I never said "replace rishadan ports with spyglass" which is just you putting words in my mouth and attacking strawmen. Again, if you think I am wrong about this feel free to point it out. I will quote you word for word. Btw I have a straightforward way of talking so don't take it personally if I am not using emoji or sugarcoating my words.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moctzal
I agree here. Revoker is also a 2/1 for 2 that can come off of Vial in response to a cast permanent that you want to shut off. Being able to shut off mana rocks and mana dorks is a bonus as well. A 2/1 is generally more proactive than a 2 mana artifact in my books. I don't really view D&T as a prison deck. I view it as disruptive aggro. The decks goal is keep your opponent off pace, not lock them out. The games where D&T lock opponents out are generally of the free win variety. In order to swing games in the margin to your favor, pilots need to be using cards like Thalia, Revoker, Rishadan Port etc very effectively. You're going to slightly edge opponents out of games just as often as you lock them out.
I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.
I bring in Pithing Needle to name fetches in exactly one matchup: Storm, because my other cards coming out are an even more anemic.
Also, grayryker, I'm going to suggest that cool your jets. You've been making some pretty aggressively toned posts recently, veering close to personal attacks, and a lot of what you've been saying in here has been detracting from the quality of conversation that usually goes on here.
Revoker isn't competing in the same slots as spyglass. I am not angry at all. I'm being blunt people like you are distorting everything I am saying. I said "hey this is a card you may want to try out" instead of saying "this is an absolute staple". Again, you talking about bringing needle against storm (as if this was what I am proposing) is pretty laughable.
Detracting from the quality of conversation? That is a bit ironic. Few people here ever talk about the weaknesses of the deck, any of the statistics, innovations, etc.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Against elves, 90% of the time the obvious target (aside from just scooping and getting lunch) is to name symbiote. By artifact based decks I assume you mean MUD, in which case the choices are pretty obvious, they only have so many targets to hit and the way they play can be pretty telling as to where they're headed. If you are playing revoker reactively, you are probably behind. Most decks have 1-2 potential revoker targets. Spyglass's information is certainly fantastic, but it doesn't answer any questions we currently have. Where does it shore up our bad match ups/where do we really want it? Two mana is a huge investment that just sits there to not really do anything more than pithing needle. EDIT: quoting on mobile is acting weird.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zakzes
I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.
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Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.[/QUOTE]Against elves, 90% of the time the obvious target (aside from just scooping and getting lunch) is to name symbiote. If you are playing revoker reactively, you are probably behind. Most decks have 1-2 potential revoker targets. Spyglass's information is certainly fantastic, but it doesn't answer any questions we currently have. Where does it shore up our bad match ups/where do we really want it? Two mana is a huge investment that just sits there to not really do anything more than pithing needle.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Well this is the difference isn't it? Revoker fits the main better because it is a creature. When you need extra denial for lands, a good case can be made for glass over needle. Like I said, this is where revoker is a reactive card. I can blind name thespian stage with needle and get blown out by molten vortex, which I could have named with glass given the hand information. Maybe I am tempted to needle the deathrite shaman on board when I should really be targeting the 1 of pernicious deed in hand. Again, the hand information shouldn't be underestimated. Not being a body susceptible to removals and boardwipes is actually often a good thing.
Note I am not promoting you bring this card in every match-up where it will have a target, for the same reasons I wouldn't be playing revoker agaisnt Czech Pile just to name walkers and deathrite.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.
I sure hope everyone uses this assumption as a starting point on this topic. In a format with Brainstorm, the value of looking before calling is diminished to begin with, but considering how we use Pithing Needle (typically as an imperfect emergency measure) this just seems like an amateur card choice. Tapping two mana on your own main phase for defense is for chumps.
That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. That is, if you start with -1 (the cost of the specs), you make your way to at least +1 by the time the game is in your corner. I stopped using the card. It certainly feels win-more because it does its best work in the long games we are supposed to win anyway. But it felt powerful as an early play especially when you use it just after a Brainstorm <--psychological, and I never got to the point of analyzing it properly. It is a much better card than it once was, and this deck sorely needs the intel.
I would not swat away Spyglass so easily.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Revoker isn't competing in the same slots as spyglass. I am not angry at all. I'm being blunt people like you are distorting everything I am saying. I said "hey this is a card you may want to try out" instead of saying "this is an absolute staple". Again, you talking about bringing needle against storm (as if this was what I am proposing) is pretty laughable.
Detracting from the quality of conversation? That is a bit ironic. Few people here ever talk about the weaknesses of the deck, any of the statistics, innovations, etc.
I didn't say that you were angry, but it's interesting that you jumped to that.
Bringing in Needle vs Storm is a common thing to do, as it's not about how good Needle is objectively, it's about how good Needle is compared to other cards in the maindeck. It's a turn 1 play against a deck that is generally faster than D&T is.
You are not simply being blunt, you're combative, and insulting on a regular basis. Those are not the same things. You do not add anything of value to this thread in the majority of your posts. You've earned a second ignore now from me now in addition to another regular in this thread. I'd say that I'd hope that it causes some introspection on your part, but you're likely to just blame others like you did in the quoted post.
Innovation doesn't matter unless it produces results. You can claim you're innovating all you want to, but until you've done it enough to put up good results at tournaments that matter, you have no data to back up anything that you claim. What you're doing is theory crafting, and frankly from what I've seen, poor theorycrafting at that.
People talk about the weaknesses of the deck all the time. See the discussion regarding the red splash, which is largely an effort to shore up a couple of the deck's worst matchups.
You're acting like a small, irrational person. Every post you make responding to others in this thread proves it.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I sure hope everyone uses this assumption as a starting point on this topic. In a format with Brainstorm, the value of looking before calling is diminished to begin with, but considering how we use Pithing Needle (typically as an imperfect emergency measure) this just seems like an amateur card choice. Tapping two mana on your own main phase for defense is for chumps.
That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with
Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. That is, if you start with -1 (the cost of the specs), you make your way to at least +1 by the time the game is in your corner. I stopped using the card. It certainly feels win-more because it does its best work in the long games we are supposed to win anyway. But it felt powerful as an early play especially when you use it just after a Brainstorm <--psychological, and I never got to the point of analyzing it properly. It is a much better card than it once was, and this deck sorely needs the intel.
I would not swat away Spyglass so easily.
Finn, can you clarify what your tl;dr is? It seems to begin at one end of the argument and ends at the other. I respect your opinion, I've been reading this thread long before I played, and consider you it's oldest advocate and champion. I just can't place your thoughts all in one category or the other.
I don't think that anyone dismissed the card, only that some believe it to be slightly worse than both options we currently use main and side. I concur that revoker's non-white body and ability to name mana sources of LED/Petal are why I don't think that I will swap the two main, and needle's speed as well as already knowing the relevant information by game 2 makes it less strong out of the sideboard comparatively.
Thanks for your time.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm definitely the oldest...and I did waffle. Sorry about that.
I suppose I am lamenting that this card is not a creature, ultimately. I am pretty sure that I would not get behind the Spyglass because we have that ability mostly covered on a creature's body. And is anyone even playing four Revokers anymore? But there is a lot to be said for the ability to see your opponent's hand in this deck.
On a finer point, intel is a part of this deck that we really do not have any experience with. We have never had it to make comparisons about the relative value it brings. I am just pointing out that in my limited experiences with intel as a feature of the deck, it proved powerful - and gets better with better players. If grayryker says he has gotten some miles out of it, whatever his persona on the thread, it may be worth testing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
*snip*
That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with
Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. *snip*
I've wanted to run that card for a long long time. Just having perfect information all the time is enough to make sure you don't make the wrong plays, with or without revoker/needle/etc. Like finding out your opponent is on burn so you can go get Jitte/Batterskull faster than you usually would. Granted, Probe would accomplish that too, but not repeatedly over the course of a game. It'd be good to know how many combo pieces your opponent has in hand already, if any. How many lands they have could influence whether to Port them early, or wait til later and develop your board. Finding out they're a creature deck would stop me from casting Thalia too early. Keeping an eye on what your opponent is up to at all times seems very very good.
Plus... those of us with a true black splash could run Cabal Therapy and completely wreck their hand every time.
Big problems with it is not affecting the board state, and competing with other 1 drops. I suppose it doesn't need to be dropped early, but it really wants to.
Also, something to be said about Toolcraft Exemplar...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I'm definitely the oldest...and I did waffle. Sorry about that.
I suppose I am lamenting that this card is not a creature, ultimately. I am pretty sure that I would not get behind the Spyglass because we have that ability mostly covered on a creature's body. And is anyone even playing four Revokers anymore? But there is a lot to be said for the ability to see your opponent's hand in this deck.
On a finer point, intel is a part of this deck that we really do not have any experience with. We have never had it to make comparisons about the relative value it brings. I am just pointing out that in my limited experiences with intel as a feature of the deck, it proved powerful - and gets better with better players. If grayryker says he has gotten some miles out of it, whatever his persona on the thread, it may be worth testing.
I think we all lament the lack of legs on spyglass. That would absolutely challenge my opinion of it's viability, and I would guess many more.
Intel is lacking, but with correct thinking, it can be accurately predicted an overwhelming amount of the time. I have zero room for something that *only* gets information, and that's why I am disappointed with Spyglass. It is a very good card and I think that there are certain styles of decks that will abuse the hell out of it. Is it this deck? I doubt it. Will I keep an open mind if someone makes relevant and meaningful results? Absolutely.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moctzal
I didn't say that you were angry, but it's interesting that you jumped to that.
Bringing in Needle vs Storm is a common thing to do, as it's not about how good Needle is objectively, it's about how good Needle is compared to other cards in the maindeck. It's a turn 1 play against a deck that is generally faster than D&T is.
You are not simply being blunt, you're combative, and insulting on a regular basis. Those are not the same things. You do not add anything of value to this thread in the majority of your posts. You've earned a second ignore now from me now in addition to another regular in this thread. I'd say that I'd hope that it causes some introspection on your part, but you're likely to just blame others like you did in the quoted post.
Innovation doesn't matter unless it produces results. You can claim you're innovating all you want to, but until you've done it enough to put up good results at tournaments that matter, you have no data to back up anything that you claim. What you're doing is theory crafting, and frankly from what I've seen, poor theorycrafting at that.
People talk about the weaknesses of the deck all the time. See the discussion regarding the red splash, which is largely an effort to shore up a couple of the deck's worst matchups.
You're acting like a small, irrational person. Every post you make responding to others in this thread proves it.
I never said Needle should/ shouldn't be sided against Storm. I'm mocking you thinking this is what I'm proposing (i.e a pure mana denial tool) with Needle/ Glass. It's hilarious you then write a paragraph explaining what needle does against Storm. Again, evidence of poor reading comprehension.
I like how you interpreted what I said as "I'm the only person that does this" comment. Oh look another evidence of poor comprehension.
Some 'innovative' things have yet to be tested by a variety of people, hence it's still worth discussing. I guess according to your logic, pretty much anything new isn't worth discussing because it hasn't appeared in tournaments. Sound logic. Also, big tournament performances are hardly indicative of optimal builds/ cards. You'd be lucky to play a deck with a 60-70% win ratio and that's with a very good pilot and the right meta. Even if you had this high win ratio, the chances that you top 8 a tournament is still improbable. Legacy MTGO leagues are obviously a lot easier in this respect. There's always a difference between right vs wrong plays, optimal vs not-as-optimal card choices, regardless of the outcome. But I suspect none of this ever crosses your mind.
And I referred to 'data' as the statistics I posted earlier about DnT win ratio, as well as about the forum in general. Of course no one ever wants to talk about it, because it puts DnT in a bad light. I never discussed any data of my own variants so I don't know where you're going with this.
So yeah I'm the small, irrational person? I'm the one here saying "hey guys there's an interesting card worth looking into" and not distorting every sentence. If you think I'm bad at theorycrafting, point out specific examples without distorting my sentences. Instead of ignoring me (like an intellectual and emotional coward would) we can actually have a decent conversation.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Yeah... so anyways guys just a quick question:
How are you boarding in the 4c Leovold matchup?
More importantly what cards are coming out? We all have different sideboards and theories as to what is good and what comes in, but what do you feel comes out in the matchup? I find myself reaching for some number of flickerwisps, revokers, and plows, but I’m curious as to what others are doing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.
Artifact - MUD: Priority:Kudolkan forgemaster > Metalworker > Ugin (then the lesss interesting ones)> Grim Monolith / Lightning Greaves (Note, our mud players over here don't use walking ballista for some rsn, which I would if I had the deck)
Elves: #1 Wirewood Symbiote
If: Boardstate: Quirion ranger / DRS / bayou - Quirion
If: Boardstate: Quirion ranger / Dryad arbor - Quirion
If: Boardstate: 1-2 Nettles, no engines - Heritage druid
If Boardstate: T1 Birchlore, T2 Nettle - Wirewood (Feels counter instinctive but its a setup for NO T2 w/cradle, if they dont pull that trigger its a sign of a glimpse chain setup
Granted, Elves are harder to predict as the player has multiple engines to get online, their all tutorable with GSZ. Biggest mistake I see is people naming heritage druid blind, Elves will get to their critical mass of mana. Its a lost battle trying to restrict their mana. And the Elves player is fine with it if you are trying to hamper his mana, as this gives him the time he needs to prepare a good glimpse.
So imo, there are good distinctive targets you can go for in those matches, I understand if your not a Elves player yourself and only play DnT that its unclear at first. Wirewood enables to much shenanigans. The main problem for a DnT player is not being able to connect with a jitte for as long as the wirewood is online. Wirewood also allow the card draw loop with visionary and more often then not are required to keep a glimpse going if the Elves player is starting to brickwall.
Quirion is better then DRS in generating mana for the deck, DRS is a glorified mana dork. The ''backup'' DRS tap, lose 2 life, bounce bayou, untap DRS, replay and do it again is a backup strat if there is a boardstall. An Elven player will just try to flood the board vs DnT in general with the sole exception being if there is a jitte with counters on the field.
I laugh my ass off every time some one puts down revoker and calls heritage druid first ^^.
Edit: I would like to add my thoughts on the discussion between Pithing needle vs the Spyglass.
The best argument I read so far goes along the lines: When I bring in Peedle game 2, I already know what I need to name.
I concur with this, thus the argument imo that spyglass lets you gain insight what you need to name beforehand comes forth out of the lack of knowledge of the DnT player not knowing what to name (I hope I don’t offend people with this statement, its not aimed at anyone)
So the main difference is gaining knowledge about your opponents hand. The main reason why decks would like to see their opponents hand in general (mainly combo) is to see if the way is clear to go off. With DnT, there is no way for you to strip away the hate card if its not an activated ability. (lets say dread of night as example) You know its coming, but theres nothing you can do about it. Now in some situations, the revealed information (removal) lets you make a play to sacrifice something less important (2nd copy of a card, or SFM over Thalia etc) in this regard, the spyglass added something that peedle is unable to do. (In some cases Prelate can stop it, but the card is rather slow, and you might play to defensive if you want to slam down Prelate and then follow up with whatever you have left) That said, those situations are somewhat rare. If I see my opponent having a hate card, well, I just got to bite the bullet and play through it, theres no reason to keep back 3 cards in hand due to 1 of them being effective vs all 3. (aside sweepers such as toxic deluge)
The thing that irks me most is that with DnT, the hardest correct play to make tends to be in turn 2. (Mainly Thalia or going SFM for equipment) I do not wish to add another card to that mix.
The main reason why I use peedles is versus lands (inkmoth / DD w/thespian combo) The spyglass additional information won’t change my mind in those specific matchups. Other matchups your targets tend to vary between 1-3, with one being the clear priority one to name.
So conclusion, I don’t think the added benefit of gaining information about what your opponent has in hand is worth the additional mana and the turn delay.
Also please keep in mind that these cards might also not be in your opener, if you peel off one of them later on, then chances are your opponents hand is 3-4 cards strong instead of 7. (Thus the added benefit diminishes in effect) Also, brainstorms invalidates most of the information gained. I just don’t see the use of the information if you do not have a (discard) follow up to make use of it.
Double edit: Also people try to keep this topic civil, the reason why I like this forum so much is because of the absence of drama. If you have a feud with someone, send him a personal message and open the dialogue that way if you have the balls for it. Bashing someone in the open in this thread is poor taste in my opinion.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Is Popeye Stompy a real thing or is this a bad joke?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
Both.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
"I won't say that no harm came out of it, as there were some speculators who went out to drive up the price of Rishadan Brigand. To you, I apologize. Maybe test your specs before buying next time? There were also some interesting Reddit and MTGTheSource threads about the “morality” of sharing deck lists. I'm in agreement with most people. If you want it private, then test in private.
Of course, all of this is going to come back to bite me as I lose to Popeye Stompy playing for Top 8 at my next event. KARRRRRRRRma is a b****."
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Not to distract you all from the spyglass debate....
I just thought I'd check in on the previous discussion on Czech pile. The only matches I'm dropping to that deck are against the 3x hymn to tourach versions. Anecdotally, turn 2-3 hymn hitting my lands seems to be enough for them to pick up steam, and snap hymn late game can be rough forcing a play into deluge or discarding you threats/answers.
I'm 100% sold on SofLS in the board for Eternal Weekend. so much B/G/x and so many sweepers right now and we have so many new lock pieces/tutors to recur
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.
I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.
I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.
I agree with your analysis on SoLaS. I have never liked that card because it’s just another awful card vs their card that hoses us. Think it’s just not worthwhile.
