Seinsei's Divining Top is pretty strong actually. I used to play 2-3 back in the Mystical Tutor days.
Also really awesome in the mirror, keeping a Chant/Silence on top all the time. They can never win anymore. :smile:
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Seinsei's Divining Top is pretty strong actually. I used to play 2-3 back in the Mystical Tutor days.
Also really awesome in the mirror, keeping a Chant/Silence on top all the time. They can never win anymore. :smile:
Except Inaki build doesn't play Chant effects. But yeah, Chants seem nice. Looking a bit at TES, too. Might suit my general playstyle better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Chants open up the option of an Iggy loop against decks with counterspells.
I know most people don't splash white for them now, but Chants should never leave the radar.
Top is still nice without Chants though. Tops are awesome against all decks with discard.
I've been less a fan of chants against decks with a lot of soft counters, which are much more common than hard counters at the moment. If Spell Snare comes back as a 4x, I think it's worth looking into Chants again, but certainly not yet. Also, I really don't think you can run Abrupt Decay and Chants unless you're playing 5-color lands (at which point TES is probably just better), and I think in most metas Miracles is popular enough that you really need to have Abrupt Decay in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Hey everyone,
I am wondering how people feel about the land count.
I am currently running these cantrips (as well as 3 Probe):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
My manabase is:
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sea
1 Volcanic
4 PDelta
4 Blue Fetch
1 Black Fetch
I am considering cutting 1 fetch for a 2nd Preordain. Thoughts?
Been reading this thread for a while now but had some questions.
Is grim tutor a worth while card for the deck anymore or is burning wish just better ??
Also is chrome mox a valid inclusion or does it just not fit with what we want to do ??
Bayou v.s. Tropical is there a better option when siding in abrupt decays??
Thanks !! I'm trying to finish picking up the cards and finish the deck. Anybody have recent decklists that have proven results ??
Grim Tutor: Burning Wish is very good, but it eats at your sideboard (need Wish slots). I have no real preference for either Wish-ANT or ANT with just Infernals and one or two Grim Tutors. Both are strong and have the same good and bad matchups. Schunemann played one Grim on side and three Wishes main, insisting that is the way to go. He did win a lot with that list, so he might be right.
Chrome Mox: I play two, Schunemann playes one. If you insist on including Ad Nauseam, I think the mox is a necessary evil. Without it, chances of fizzling are just too high. Right now I play Doomsday again though, so I don't have to play that stupid Mox. :tongue:
Green Splash: Tropical Island is the better card. You want as many lands tapping for blue as possible. Casting Ponders and Brainstorms is key to ANT. You could go -1 Island, +1 Tropical Island main, and add a Bayou to the side, in order to swap the main deck Swamp for it against Miracles. Against any Tempo Threshold you can actually just add it as an additional land to battle their mana denial.
In my testing I find that Tropical Island is not only better because it makes blue, but you also have to have a black land to cast Abrupt Decay. Bayou doesn't do much for you when you have to have a Bayou + another black land. Where I differ from a lot of lists here is that I do not run any maindeck green sources (just 1 Trop in the board for my 4 Abrupt Decays). The maindeck Trop felt absolutely terrible to me, as the dual is a pretty big liability in a lot of matchups. Don't run a Bayou in your 75 if you are only playing Abrupt Decay. It's good with Xantid Swarm though.
Patrunkenphat7 makes a valid point here. Decay + Bayou demands another black source, which draws you even further away from blue mana for cantrips, unless you are willing to become even more vulnerable to Wasteland.
I do play Trop main, but if I use green as an extra colour, I use it well: 3x Decay, 3x Carpet, 3x Swarm. :smile:
@pingpong
Grim Tutor has upsides and downsides compared to Burning Wish. It is a business spell more often, but it is less versatile (the only 'answer' it fetches g1 in my UBw(g) version is a singleton Karakas). The lifeloss can also be relevant. Wish does take a bunch of SB space and is a splash color.
Chrome Mox is a bad card, but it helps for AdN. I play 0 or 1, depending on how reliant the version is on Ad Nauseam.
@Pat
I don't like going to 14 lands. I'd go to 16 before I'd go to 14. (And I like the 4th probe over the 1st preordain but not by alot.)
@Prosak's list
It just seems wrong to run that few business.
@Top
I don't like Top in ANT. It doesn't exactly help setting up threshold for Cabal Ritual and is by nature a slow card. Surely they are still okay against certain decks, but I don't think they're worth running in this deck.
@Chants
I think chants are still fine, although discard might simply be better in this meta. It is, however, possible to run Decays in the board with white in the MD. Miracles won't be playing wasteland, so the manabase isn't that much of a problem. If you board 2 green duals + decays against random decks as well you would replace white so it'd still be fine.
@Green Duals
When I play green as a 4th color in UBrg and UBwg I usually only board 1 Trop and 3 Decay. If I want to board the decays against random hate I'd play both duals sideboard.
If I play straight UBg I play one dual MD and one in the board with 3-4 Decay and a number of Swarms & Carpets.
@BUG
Empty the Warrens is pretty sick against BUG, it seems like a good card to include even in the versions without wish.
So for most of the afternoon today I goldfished storm with this list and would like some feedback to see if theres any obvious faults.
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian probe
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's eye diamond
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Past in flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
Landbase:
2x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Misty rainforest ( should it be verdant catacombs ?? or does it not matter ??)
4x Polluted delta
4x Scalding Tarn
Sideboard: I need the most help on this
2x Karakas
3x Abrupt decay
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Past in flames
1x Tendrils of agony
1x Grim tutor (in gold fishing I never really wished for it didnt seem to do much and felt rather clunky. Maybe ill gotten gains in its place ??)
The next 3 slots along with the grim tutor I'm really not sure what should go there. Cards ive considered are perish, massacre, innocent blood, maybe chain of vapors or wipe away ??
Back to grim tutor though what actual purpose does it serve other than an extra tutor thats wishable. I guess what it comes down to is how do I justify getting one. I have no problem with the price but if I cant find one through trading (which is easier to justify) then what specific reasons make it exceptionally well for the deck.
My apologies if my rambling question doesn't make any sense :tongue:
I am playing almost exactly the GP Ghent list and I have a very, very difficult time against RUG Delver. Their combination of counters and a clock is just brutal. Does anyone have any suggestions for beating RUG Delver? Cards that are really good against them? I know Empty the Warrens is good against them early, but playing it against them is easier said than done.
First off, before I post anything else in this thread, I must say that I am relatively new to ANT. I have played 15 different Legacy decks in sanctioned events including TES, but my first sanctioned tournament with ANT was tonight. That being said, I now feel like I have put in a considerable amount of time playtesting over the last couple weeks, and I plan on playing this deck in Denver - so it's time to weigh in on the forums. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen
My testing against RUG has shown me that enough discard + Past in Flames is a pretty effective way of getting there. If your opponent is good, he will board in some solid gy hate against you making your life more difficult. Carpet of Flowers is a reasonable card, but you are pretty much saying that Ad Nauseam is a legitimate win-con if you bring in Carpet. From my experience Ad Nauseam is only relevant against them if it is in your opening hand for a quick win, because Daze + Spell Pierce + Delver is too much for you to be able to Tutor + Ad Nauseam at a reasonable life total with 1 or more mana floating. Because of these factors, I board in more discard for their gy hate and any other counters they might bring in, and I board out the Probes.
My maindeck disruption and Probe count is currently 4 Duress, 3 Therapy, and 3 Probe. I bring in 2 Inquisition and 1 Thoughtseize for the Probes against RUG. Inquisition is actually an extremely good card against RUG Delver. I expect people will have different opinions on this, but try out a couple different strategies and see what works for you. I think the other best approach would be Carpet of Flowers, but that isn't helping against their Delvers, Forces, Spell Snares (which are being played now), or gy hate. Inquisition is sinfully underplayed, as it's sick against targeted discard decks as well as RUG Delver and provides additional discard against combo.
This is the current list I am running:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
SB
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Dread of Night
2 Karakas
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
The only weird thing in my main is the 2nd Ad Nauseam. I find that it provides the valuable fast kill that's important in a lot of matchups. Ad Nauseam can be pretty nutty when it's in your opener, so I want to double the odds. It's been solid ever since I upped it to 2. In my SB I have the 2nd Karakas over the 4th Dread of Night mostly because of Show and Tell. Maverick is not seeing much play anymore, and Dread of Night is pretty linear hate. I feel like I have to play the Echoing Truths because I don't want to be blown out by random crap like Leyline of Sanctity that I have no other outs to. It's also nice splash hate for slightly faster combo decks that rely on Empty the Warrens.
Xantid Swarm is a very polarizing card. A lot of people swear by it, but I simply don't know what it's good against in this metagame. In theory it would be good against Delver, but they usually don't bring out all their Burn, and if they don't have Bolt they can sometimes Stifle/Delver block. It will randomly win the matchup, but it is also randomly bad. It's terrible against the BUG decks that have a lot of discard and Deathrite Shamans as alternate ways of messing with your combo. I would rather have Inquisition for those matchups. These days Merfolk is like a tier 5 deck that's easy to beat anyways, so Swarm isn't really needed there. It just seems like a card that belongs in TES.
**By the way - to the poster with the list above: I started out playing 1 Island and 1 Swamp, but ever since I added the 2nd Island I never looked back, and the deck feels much better.
Misty Rainforest or Verdant Catacombs? I was also thinking on it and came to the fact, that you always need an island for starters. And if you are going for a turn 1 kill, you can fetch for U-sea.
Yesterday I tried an unusual thing. I put a Meekstone against RUG delver and BUG decks. It bought me a game against RUG, because he had to skip flipping his delver every turn and attack only for 1. I had an infinite amount of turns to sculpt my hand for the win. The stone took place of one of dreads of night, which are collecting dust in the sb lately.
@ Patrunkenphat7: ANT is already notoriously mediocre at fast Ad Nauseum's , a second seems like it would make it even worse? Your right about Xantid Swarm against RUG though, it's pretty bad against them, I don't even bother since they have too many ways to deal with it. Xantid Swarm for me is more for Miracles, Reanimator, BUG (they usually only have Liliana's and possibly Deed postboard to deal with it), etc.. Chain of Vapor seems better than Echoing Truth for the random card's in my opinion, as it's better against soft counters and doesn't get hit by Spell Snare.
I'd also probably either cut the second Island or a fetch for the sideboard Trop, since that lets you add the fourth Dread of Night, or since Maverick isn't that prevalent right now, I'd consider cutting them for 2-3 Virtue's Ruin to open up some more slots.
@Heathen: Threshold - playing just 7 discards I find it slightly good to even match-up, in fact I enjoy playing against it, typical SB is (note I typically play 2 PiF main): + 2nd Toa +EtW -AN -Probe, + Bayou +3 Xantid Swarm -off color fetch -discard -cantrip -petal lately
Strategy is simple, wait and the turn before they kill you, kill them, don't expose critical pieces to Surgical Extraction unless necessary, 8/7 ToA from hand (so don't cut Probe completely), double Toa via BW, EtW early turns, BW often acts as a discard spell -great in the match-up overall
I don't think Swarm is poor tech against Threshold, it's a must counter, and eating a bolt it buys you a turn, re-buys a Cabal therapy
@Door: nice find, but too narrow, same with DoN, Misty/Catacombs - depends on the SB land, I'm on 4 delta, 3 tarn, 2 mire (2x sea, volc, badlands, SB bayou) and 100% happy
finally, i have my own grim tutor!. Goldfishing test: Now i love drawing burning wish
@Pat, Xantid Swarm is great against anything aiming to cheat Griselbrand into play. Those decks usually have no answer to Swarm and Swarm's ability counters Griselbrand's effectively.
If this where Facebook id like your status.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
How many wish do you play?
3, same list than schuneman... i mean, burning wish without grim always looked bad, for example a hand with DR+DR+LED+CabalR+BW now is beautiful :P