Please clarify. Right now I have no idea where your "that", "these" and "your" aim at.Quote:
Originally Posted by mario91234
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Please clarify. Right now I have no idea where your "that", "these" and "your" aim at.Quote:
Originally Posted by mario91234
I have mentioned Burning Wish is an issue vs Reanimator and Show&Tell several times in the past, as far as I'm aware I was the first person to suggest Bribery in this thread because of that issue - you can use the search function yourself.
How are Surgical Extraction and Bribery even comparable? One is a card you SB in, the other is a card you wish for and if it wasn't obvious, which I thought it was, what I was implying was I'd rather play with no Surgical Extractions in the MD and a Bribery in the SB because Surgical Extraction is only playable vs Reanimator instead of Reanimator and Show&Tell and I'd rather have a card that both protects my combo or stops their combo i.e. I'd rather have a Bribery in the SB that increases the EV of the match up overall and discard in the MD that can either protect me or disrupt them instead of a card that can only disrupt them like Surgical Extraction.
I didn't mention how SBing in Xantid Swarm turns on Diminishing Returns because that's obvious, it doesn't solve the problem of not having Silence in the MD and having to use either Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens to win risking either counter spells or Griselbrand instead of casting Bribery and winning with Griselbrand ourself. If I get to the point where I can win, I want to make certain that I do win and Bribery is the only guaranteed out as far as I'm concerned.
There's nothing flawed about that logic, Sensei's Divining Top is a less threatening card than Counterbalance is and considering the only deck that plays Sensei's Divining Top also plays Counterbalance you're going to have to worry about one or the other regardless and I'd rather worry about the one that automatically disrupts instead of the one that may disrupt me if a counter spell is on the top of the deck.
Your definition of linear is just fucked up, just because we're playing all discard doesn't make us linear, it may make us less diverse but being linear is about being able to interact with our opponent or not and Silence does not interact with our opponent's strategy or his permanent hate. Silence does not buy more time vs Reanimator than discard does, Silence buy a turn, discard buys X turns if you can discard his outlet or his only reanimation spell. I've played that match up extensively, and I'd take discard over Silence every time. I think one of the reasons you have to make a concession to Reanimator in your SB/MD is that you lost Duress for Cabal Therapy.
I'm not against Pyroblast, I advocated Pyroblast after you mentioned it as well but the problem I found with Pyroblast was that it didn't interact with counters as well as discard and tried other options like Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek under the assumption that if I could stop Meddling Mage from resolving in the first place then I wouldn't have to remove it at all. I went from cutting Pyroblast entirely to playing a single Pyroblast instead of your two because, like Chain of Vapour, it gave me an out post Ad Nauseam vs resolved, permanent hate ala Meddling Mage that didn't prevent me from going off but did prevent me from killing him with Tendrils of Agony. I don't think the card is good enough in multiples to bother with it over discard, I don't mind it as a singleton tho'
There is no "side," I use a single Pyroblast vs Meddling Mage.dec and otherwise I'd rather SB in discard vs any deck that doesn't play Meddling Mage because Inquisition of Kozilek is likely better - especially when BUG is cutting Jace for Clique and those faeries seems to be in every one's MD or SB right now. I don't think of things in absolutes the way you seem to do, if there's a median like MDing Silence, SBing 4 Thoughtseize and cutting Xantid Swarms and Tropical Island then I'll play that as long as I think it's the best choice for the metagame.
Stifle hasn't been good against TES since the printing of Ad Nauseam and like I said RUG is a dying deck, I just don't see all of these tertiary counter spells like Spell Snare, Envelope, Stifle, Red Elemental Blast or Surgical attraction that often, because not every Miracle deck plays red and every U/w aggro control deck plays Rest in Peace and most people seem to prefer Flusterstorms or extra discard in their SBs fwiw to protect their own threats.
I'm not saying Silence is bad, I'm not saying Pyroblast is bad, I'm saying discard seems to be able to address more of the critical problems we're likely to face in game 1 (Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance) and post-board (Meddling Mage, more discard) while being able to interact with Reanimator and Show&Tell in order to stop them from going off if that serves us better than only trying to go off ourselves. If I come across these "fist full of counters" decks then Silence is probably the better choice, but I'm not and as long as I have to face Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Green Sun's Zenith or Thalia across a larger spectrum of aggro-control decks than just RUG then I think 4xThoughtseize really needs to be in your 75 right now.
I’m asking you to bring up a prior example. It’s very easy to win arguments when you keep changing your opinion or switching/diverting topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You were the one who suggested Bribery over Surgical Extraction, not me. Surgical Extraction isn’t as narrow as you make it out to be, it’s more diverse than Bribery is by far. It comes in or is relevant in at least twice as many match-ups. How exactly does it increase EV? If you can resolve Burning Wish into a five mana spell, you’ve likely already won. The issue I’m addressing is getting to that point in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
So… you need a safety net? Cool dude. I’m not willing to dedicate sideboard slots for those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
We have Abrupt Decay and Pyroblast for Counterbalance. This is what I was talking about not putting all of your eggs in one basket. We have multiple answers in other cards, why be weak against cards in their deck that are good against us in different ways?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Most of the time all you need is a turn with this deck. Like I haven’t played the match-up? I’m out there consistently putting up results against a variety of decks, including Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You’re making the same concessions by advocating shit cards like Bribery.
We’re splitting hairs at this point. The difference between one and two is non-relevent unless there are two Meddling Mage in play, although, I’m much more likely to find mine post-Nauseam than you are, increasing consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
When you have multiple blasts the one or two of Vendilion Clique becomes less relevant, just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I’ve considered more discard spells in the sideboard. I’m not sure where I stand on that yet as it makes us worse against Show & Tell variants, but better against decks were already good against such as Death & Taxes. Not to mention with additional discard spells, we now have too much to bring in against non-blue decks.
Stifle hasn’t been relevant due to Silence, that card you keep on talking about cutting. I like how you mention non-black decks and then talk about them bringing in extra discard, cute. I think you’re likely focusing too much on BUG Delver as Shardless is already a good matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Then play more discard, I don’t care. I’ll begin to test two discard spells over the two Xantid Swarms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
While Xantid Swarm isn't stellar, I feel we'd be loosing the maximum impact of our sideboard space to add more discard spells in their stead. Still worth testing though. If one did want more discard spells, all I could advocate is shaving copies of Silence for Thoughtseize main deck - but I wouldn't want to cut the card entirely and I'm fairly happy with the way things are.
EDIT: To clarify my position, I think Silence is fine and I'll be continuing to run the 3 copies. I think our current disruption package is effective and has a good compromise of power and versatility to deal with a large open metagame.
I talked about that change before, tested it locally, hated it because of all the reasons I stated in this thread beforeQuote:
Originally Posted by vercadium
Edit: I even adjusted the mana for that
Yeah that argument doesnt make any sense. Im probably dead in these sb games-
If silence wouldn't resolve and they have the second counter, its the exact same thing as if you cast any hand disruption. Only difference is they had to pay mana or a blue card to counter your spell. Lets not readdress the argument where there hand is 2x Force +blue card.
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by the time i am able to resolve hand hate and see they have no more interaction compared to your proposed wait and draw more protection plan.
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IF they have this "double counterspell" the amount of time you need to dig for additional protection is not adequate. Whereas if you just had silence, you either got there or you didn't. Thus bringing me to the conclusion...
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You just have to go for it way more often which silence is better at.
The difference is that letting Silence resolve is not an option unlike a Discard Spell if you have a second counter. You can bet I'd personally fling a Spell Pierce or Daze at your Duress to protect my hand from your notepad and pen ...
Obviously... But if you're running your protection into those counters you just pay. If you can pay and win why did you bother the attempt unless you had to?
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Paying for a Spell Pierce can be a Chokepoint especially under the pressure of Delver and shit. During the time I played 4 Silence I often burned additional ones in a theatric way to draw out counters by browsing my graveyard, counting mana, adjusting dices and announcing stormcount etc just to fake a combo attempt for valueQuote:
Originally Posted by mario91234
The only reasn I play TES over ANT is cause Silence. I think its just the card that makes this deck devastating.
In a deck that occasionally has to play Diminishing Returns I'd always want the possibility of Silence. Furthermore, as decks try to combat us via multiple axes, I want to be able to combat them against multiple axes: Silence is also great against midrange discard and elves. If discardspells become better than Silence in the meta (I don't think we're there yet), I might consider going down to 2 Silence but not any less.
Tom
"Meh, a 2-off is totally unreliable. The reason the silence was trimmed was to prevent multiples from bricking your hand like it was done with Chrome mox before without turning it into a complete random draw"
Greetings,
Captain Obvious
I was thinking about it, even if I do swap Swarms for the Thoughtseizes. I wouldn't board in all three regardless, my plan would be to leave one as a Wish target and board in the other two with Pyroblast over Empty, Mox, Ponder and a Silence. If you wanted to leave in Empty, side out an Infernal.
As someone that's going to be picking up this deck for the first time, what are the most important thing I should be looking to learn? I'm pretty familiar with AnT but never played any burning wishes or rite of flames before.
@[SLAYER]chaos
Goldfish alot of past in flames wins. It's alot different than in ANT because with TES you'll need to cast past in flames with B and R floating, have enough rituals to win(3-4), and its also depending on what tutor is in your graveyard/is tendrils MD or SB right now. Being able to quickly recognize when you should be setting up for one of these wins is really strange especially compared to how straightforward casting ad nauseam can be.
Also picking which order to cast spells on a 3-colour combo turn VS daze & pierce can be hard. Usually artifacts (but not LED), Rite of flame, then Silence, then dark ritual. But it can be a total headache sometimes in the corner cases.
Got a ton of great advice from this thread. I owe my enjoyment of TES entirely to you and your exhaustive primer, Mr. Cook. Finally had my playset of LEDs come in, so I'll be sleeving up almost your exact 75 for my first legacy tournament as a combo player today, results to come! I'm running a slightly different sideboard; combo isn't nearly as big a component of the meta here, but Delver is everywhere, so my board will look more like this:
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
I'd love some feedback on if I should have left the Surgicals in, or made space for Carpet of Flowers given the island/wasteland heavy meta?
Thanks!
If you don't expect much combo, you could shave a Xantid for a Surgical or another Chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krenthar
Hey guys I'm a new TES player made about 50 goldfishes so far. My first question is when use etw and when tendrils. I tried in the goldfish games to kill with tendrils. In my opinion I build token when I can go off turn one or against decks that can't handle tokens, right?
You go for EtW ifQuote:
Originally Posted by MethadronGer
a) your opponent likely can't handle those (Probe helps to identify opponents options)
b) you'll face a flurry of disruption coming (especially discard)
c) you'll face hatebears
d) you can pair it with Cabal Therapy to create a clock + mindtwist
Greetings from Berlin
Thank you. Next question, I can build token T1 without interruption. How many tokens should a make minimum?