[DTB] Vial Goblins

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

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I did not test it much, but had the same idea for a RB-list and i liked it. I had it on opening hand too often (although I played just 2 of it). I like to hear more about it when you tesed it on some tourneys.

@ unpowered: I completely agree, very good reasoning. I was thinking about exchnging Pillar for horns,but thenyou made a good point with your "pushes them into mid-game" reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

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I think this is a fine call, since this deck is ultimately a tempo deck, important plays such as hitting lackey and stinging their Iona are the only way to win certain unwinnable scenarios in a mono-R build. Blocking can be the difference between massive tempo/card advantage via lackey or WI, and losing. It will certainly be something to help the deck evolve to the big creatures for cheap format that Wizards has created.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

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For the times you didn't have a Lackey/Instigator, did you find the CIPT too much of a drawback? Hitting your curve is ultra important when you don't have a Lackey/Instigator to lean on.

I have used 2 in mono red to some success. Nothing huge but they are useful from time to time. I ran 22 lands and I don't think I ever had any significant problems with CIPT. A few times it was annoying but the drawback was never gamebreaking.

Where have FoulQ, Tacosnape, and the rest gone? I'd like to see more opinions on this; it seems interesting.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Where have FoulQ, Tacosnape, and the rest gone? I'd like to see more opinions on this; it seems interesting.

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Hah.

Well if anybody can remember when zendikar was released, I and a few others tested soaring seacliffs with moderate success. The ability itself is meh, but the surprise factor is what will really fuck with people. Remember how good stingscourger was when half the forum hated it? People would open themselves up to huge losses from a simple goblin unsummon. Now that most opponents know what stingscourger is, it isn't quite as good (but still bomb imo).

So yeah, soaring seacliffs surprised everyone I played it against, and more often than not that led to massive gains. An opponent with a goyf on board and holding daze for your t2 weirding could very well lose the entire game because of a sneaky seacliffs.

However, the benefit to me wasn't that great overall, and the CITP and the blue mana made me think to run 23-24 lands, and then with 24 mainly, I got flooded, but had no troubles with CITP and not enough red mana.

So this other land basically does the same thing as soaring seacliffs, AND adds red mana! Seems like a great thing, right?

Well I left out one important detail, and that is that soaring seacliffs makes your lackeys/instigators uncounterably unblockable at any time, and by the late game your opponent may have more than 2 creatures out, reducing the usefulness of smoldering spires. Soaring seacliffs is already conditional, and smoldering spires is even moreso, especially as a 2-of where you are more likely to draw it later in the game.

The other benefits, extra swinging damage (often with piledriver shenanigans), is not really that significant. When I was lackeyless, seacliffs got me the occasional points in. Yeah, there was still a benefit. But it wasn't that important. Smoldering spires, while different than seacliffs, I feel would be the same way.

I agree that the CITP is not really a problem. The land will help you more often than it will fuck you, though you will get the occasional fuck.

My final conclusion on the card...I can see myself using it as a meta call, especially if people expect you always to play goblins and your metagame is more insular. Throw it in one week, now your opponent plays around the next. People get into set patterns that will fuck them over often whether you have it or not. Classic example? Stifle.

Basically, the more insular your metagame, the better it will fuck with your opponents, in your 75 or not.

I have the same opinion on blood moon and magus. Because most people will not play around it unless they know you have it, but once they play against you at the next tournament after being fucked (or possibly not) in the first tournery by a blood moon, they will play around it (or SB for it) even if you don't have it.

But not a recommendation for a standard decklist. Could also be good at big events like GPs because people get into set patterns there too. Why would they get paired up against the random janker playing some boringly designed worldwake common that only got cozy sleeves put on them during drafts? But they did get paired up against you, and now they are 0-2 dropping.

What do you guys think about goblin arsonist??

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Originally Posted by danielcrocker

What do you guys think about goblin arsonist??

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What do YOU think of Mogg Fanatic?

I think Arsonist is just a poor version of a card that we dont play too often. You cant sac it but have to wait for it to die, that a disadvantage in comparison to Mogg Fanatic.

What is the correct number if you are playing CIPT lands?? 2-3 maybe, or do you want play playset? Here is a list which I created after I got excited of those CIPT lands

4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
6 Mountains
3 Smoldering Spires
5 Fetch

4 Aether Vial
3 Warren weirding

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator

SB:
2 Blood Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Perish
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre

Ravenous Trap would be good against Dredge, but Faerie Macabre will deal reanimators and loam decks too. I think Faerie Macabre is more versatile than Trap. I'm not playing Warchief in this list because I want to drop Goblin not to play them and that's why I play Chieftains over Warchiefs. Please give comments about this list. I haven't played it yet so I don't know how good Smoldering Spires really is.

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Originally Posted by angel882

What is the correct number if you are playing CIPT lands?? 2-3 maybe, or do you want play playset? Here is a list which I created after I got excited of those CIPT lands

4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
6 Mountains
3 Smoldering Spires
5 Fetch

4 Aether Vial
3 Warren weirding

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator

SB:
2 Blood Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Perish
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre

Ravenous Trap would be good against Dredge, but Faerie Macabre will deal reanimators and loam decks too. I think Faerie Macabre is more versatile than Trap. I'm not playing Warchief in this list because I want to drop Goblin not to play them and that's why I play Chieftains over Warchiefs. Please give comments about this list. I haven't played it yet so I don't know how good Smoldering Spires really is.

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CIPT lands: I think you should test wether to play 2 or 3.
Warchief: You slow yourself down by playing cip-tapped lands AND you dont play Warchief. This makes you less agressive/explosive and far more predictable for your opponent. With this combination you give away the most important advantage of goblins.
Graveyard-hate: Why dont you play 4 Leylines? They cant be countered, Reanimator iand Dredge are not prepared that goblins will sideboard this and Loam can handle your Crypts, by letting you sac it and then they just play another Loam.
I play Leylines and on the last tourney I was paired against Dredge and Reanimator. The first conceded cause he boarded Ancient Grduges instead of Ray of Revelation and the latter conceded, cause he didnt board bounce, expecting Tormods Crypt or Trap (which he could have countered).

The problem I have with leyline is that you cannot skill your way into a well-placed leyline. Sure, you can mull till you get one, but oftentimes luck will not be on your side either A) in your own unluckiness, or B) in your opponent's luckiness in answering it. I prefer hate that I can mull OR draw into (and saying you can cast leyline on t4 is kinda...not the greatest argument). Not to mention, other gy hate can be just as surprising if you place it just at the right time.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

The problem I have with leyline is that you cannot skill your way into a well-placed leyline. Sure, you can mull till you get one, but oftentimes luck will not be on your side either A) in your own unluckiness, or B) in your opponent's luckiness in answering it. I prefer hate that I can mull OR draw into (and saying you can cast leyline on t4 is kinda...not the greatest argument). Not to mention, other gy hate can be just as surprising if you place it just at the right time.

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I am not saying that mull into Leyline is an option, neither is playing it on T4.
What I thought about it was this:
Consider the most frqeuent decks to board GY hate against. Looking at my meta its Reanimator and Dredge.
With Leyline in deck for g2 you have three 4-offs in your deck that you want to have in your opening hand (Lackey, Vial, Leyline).
You dont have to mull here cause a 1st-turn Lackey/Vial/Leyline surely is (to varying degrees) a problem for the decks just mentioned.
Even skilled players expect you to have Relics/Crypt/Trap in board, so they consider this when keeping or taking mulligan. Reanimator knows that they have to counter or discard your hate or bring guys in via Show and Tell. So they keep a hand with counter and/or discard. Dredge's plan is to handle your GY hate with Cabal Therapy and Ancient Grudge.
Both startegies dont consider Ley-Line/enchantment removal.

If you dont have it on your opening hand you can place early Lackeys to cause them trouble. Dredge cant do much against it and Reanmator will keep its counters for Relic/Crypt.
Actually I dont think there is ANY matchup for gGoblins against which you shoul mull on LeyLine. You always consider it as the 3rd "killer-at-turn-one-card".

Thats why I play Ley-Lines.

What do you think of Tuktuk in the test slot for this Friday? Last Friday, Tinkerer saved my ass twice, but Tuktuk could be better in other MU's. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by bakofried

What do you think of Tuktuk in the test slot for this Friday? Last Friday, Tinkerer saved my ass twice, but Tuktuk could be better in other MU's. Thoughts?

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I dont know any match-up that could be better with TukTuk, maybe you could explain what you mean here?
IMO TukTuk doesnt solve problems like Dreadnought and Jitte. I think any other removal is here a better SB slot (and thats what we usually dont put into SB).

It depend what gy-hate people are playing in your meta. When I was playing Goblin against dredge they knew that I was playing Leyline or they just sided in bounce always. After Zendikar was released people started playing Ravenous Trap and dredge knows that you are playing it. That's why I'm considering playing Faerie Macabre because it will be surprise and you don't need to play 4-of. My opinion is to mix gy-hate. I used to play this kind of mixture:
1 Relic
1 Crypt
2 Trap

Hey there!

What's the commom sense wheter playing first turn Lackey or Vial?
I swear I tried to find this discussion in the pages but I couldn't :(

@gobolord, @angel

I've tested angel's version with CIPT lands and I didn't feel the lack of Warchief. Since the purpose is to put guys fastly through Lackey / Instigator WITH CIPT, I think that this list is in a good process of developing, but I can't say totally sure that Warchief should not but played :( It's very important, and the slots of goblins lists have been very tight nowadays :/ .

I'm having a bit of trouble with the side. I have reason to suspect Elf-Combo will be making an appearance this weekend, and I'd like to ensure that it doesn't take me out. I don't believe Thorn is anywhere near good against them, but it's much better vs. Storm and Burn. So, basically, what should I do? I'm thinking of putting a single Sharpshooter in the main or the side, and I should probably side in Pyrokinesis, but what else?

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Originally Posted by bakofried

I'm having a bit of trouble with the side. I have reason to suspect Elf-Combo will be making an appearance this weekend, ...

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I guess you will try to go mono R but in this case the R/b Version has the ultimate solution to disturb their build up in form of perish.
Although it doesn't stop their combo turn hence it being a sorcery but it can buy you the time needed to finish them off early.

Are we talking elfball combo or elf "aggro" combo with Joraga Warcaller ?

And what else do you expect of the metagame ?

Besides the one Sharpshooter, I believe Chalice would be worth it against Elves, while still retaining its effectiveness against Storm Combo, and being even more devastating against Burn.