What archetype did Mental Misstep define?Quote:
Originally Posted by H
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What archetype did Mental Misstep define?Quote:
Originally Posted by H
OK, nit-pick lodged, I wasn't playing Legacy when Misstep was legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
To get you up to speed, it was a healthier format than we have now. You could play goblins, hivemind, stoneblade, NO/Rug, maverick and one drop zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Edit: and when they banned it they said the format was becoming too blue.
Their reason was garbage. It was simply because it was a mistake, the incorrect approach to attempt to "slow down" the format. I doubt they felt like admitting that in wide release.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
I'm definitely missing something though, why is that "healthier" than the meta we have now? Now you can play 3-4 different Delver decks, 2 different Stoneblade decks, Miracles, Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show and Elves.
Shit, apparently, you can also play Landstill, MUD, Storm, and who the hell knows what else. You can probably play (almost) anything you want if you just know how to really play it well.
Actually, they said that they hoped mental misstep would help fight brainstorm but it had the opposite effect. It's the first in a long list of cards printed and failed to combat brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
You realize that D&T was the 3rd most represented deck on day 2 and it got absolutely crushed on Sunday, by the blue decks, with no copies making it to the top 16, right?
Edit: yeah, you can play a ton of decks in any format if you don't care about losing a lot.
The MUD player got very lucky to survive 15 rounds. The rest of the top 8 used Brainstorm to decrease variability. We don't know what a meta absent Brainstorm would look like but the odds are pretty good more people would be willing to play something other than blue, given the slight increase in variability for blue lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
If you don't understand that Brainstorm is the best card in the format by a wide margin then I don't really know what to say. I can point at the top 8 (again) and tell you to just "look at the bones, man, look at the bones!" but you probably still won't get what I'm saying.
I guess being 13-2 means you are losing a lot? Sure, Brainstorm gives you cumulative advantage that will be borne out in a 15 round event. That means Death and Taxes is unplayable? :laugh:
Or continue eating flies and larvae of other indigenous species. Said the spider to the fly ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
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Originally Posted by H
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Originally Posted by H
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Originally Posted by testing32
:D
..........Quote:
Originally Posted by H
You need to stop focusing on outliers. Nothing is unplayable if you like playing a suboptimal deck.
Death and Taxes was the 3rd most common archetype to make day two but none of them made the top 16. 14 lists that included Brainstorm made the top 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
That's what I'm talking about.
Brainstorm is obviously the best card in Legacy. You are not getting my point. Wizards doesn't feel it's a problem though, so you are basically pissing into the wind.
The problem here is a bit complex, let me explain my 2 cents :smile:
The problem of legacy is his Speed. Often you are dead before t3 - t4 for casting your beloved Supreme Verdict.
In a perfect world, Delver should be black, TNN White, and tarmo's casting cost GG. Just sayin.
Brainstorm is the evil? Nope at all. BS brings "need for skill" in the format and for a game this is simply a good thing.
A cantrip can't let you win, a stupid card instead yes.
If you are using your BS for finding a S&T, wich one is the stupid card?
To sum up: ban Delver and S&T, they are really unfun, it should be enough.
In any case, it's a game.
Peace :tongue:
Bye
Unfortunately, for WotC, the reek of hypocrisy on things like Mental Misstep and Brainstorm is beginning to become quite strong. If they choose not to ban Brainstorm the odds are pretty good they'll have a hard time ever banning anything again. It's hard to imagine anything else they could reasonably print at this point that will reach 70%+ penetration in the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I think they almost have to ban Brainstorm now that they've treated us to GP Brainstorm. If the brilliant plan was to print Treasure Cruise as a common so they could ban it instead the top 8 kind of screwed them. Not a Treasure Cruise top 8.
Obviously, banning about 30 cards would make Brainstorm much fairer. That's kind of a crappy way to go though. That's the "ban all the great creatures instead of Survival of the Fittest" approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by jafar
I agree with this. You can't leave BS and ban something else without looking like you are completely out of touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Banning TC won't fix the problem either. Miracle decks were already running 2 pyroblasts main before it was ever printed.
Of course they are hypocritical, recall their "rationale" when they banned Mystical Tutor. They had no data at all, their reasoning was essentially, "aww, shucks guys this card makes me feel bad." It actually turned out to be a good idea in retrospect, since Miracles, etc. came along, but I'm not sure they did it with that much foresight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Wizards doesn't need any real reason to ban something. One day, someone over there will play an actual Legacy tournament, realize what is going on, complain, and something will happen.
Or, maybe not and we'll just have to deal. Or play Vintage, that's what I do when I get tired of Legacy.
And yet WotC has made mistakes as well (Storm, Dredge, Affinity), so although they have a much greater impact than we as players do concerning bans etc, they also are not necessarily right when they do or do not make a ban etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Having said that, removing Brainstorm is a much trickier issue. Force of Will is a necessary evil to keep glass cannon combo in check, yet without Brainstorm those matchups become more luck-based, increasing the odds that a non blue non combo deck has to face a combo deck, which doesnt bode well for the non blue non combo deck.
As far as the consistency argument goes, Elves! has proven that green has tools to be consistent, whether thats GSZ, NO, Sylvan Library, Survival, etc. Its just they have no tools fast enough for the glass cannon combo decks.
Not to mention that the better combo decks are consistent, via cantrips (various storm; various show and tell) or redundancy (Dredge, Elves!)
EDIT: Sort of hastily posted this without making a point ... my bad. Anyhow, the problem is not Brainstorm, but the combination of Delver, Wasteland, and Daze. Get rid of Delver, and the other two become a lot more manageable.
IMHO banning survival was a wrong move.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
The stupid card there was vengevine.
At the moment survival is a quite hateable, fun and skill intensive card. They could easily unban it.
Of the 20,000 available cards, playing to win means you ignore around ~99% of them anyway because the rest are terrible comparatively. Playing to win means you use the very best tools available to you, regardless of your personal preference to a particular set of them. The idea that "card x should be banned so that I could win with card y instead" is idiotic, there's always going to be a top of the heap that invalidate things below it. How many creatures just stopped being relevant in the face of Tarmogoyf? How many card advantage engines are left collecting dust now that Jace exists? You'll never be in a position where a large amount of the Legacy cardpool is legitimately relevant for competitive play, outside of being a functional stand-in for a better card, just because we only play 60 cards in a deck and opportunity cost is a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
This is why I brought up the comparison to fetches and duals, a lot of the arguments people use to point to Brainstorm for bans are pretty arbitrary and, as Lemnear mentioned, are more about striking at combo, control and U midrange while preserving BGx/Wx/Bx midrange. When you ban a powerful card because you want other cards to be powerful instead, you're pretty much just designing a list on personal preference. If you don't like "the Brainstorm format", there are other formats without it, that don't have such a polarizingly powerful cardpool.
Also, I'm getting pretty sick of people claiming that every time there's a non-blue deck that tops it's "just an outlier". EVERYONE who tops is an outlier, they were particularly skillful, lucky, etc. to make it there. Remember, the top16 of a 4200+ player event represents LESS THAN .4% OF THE ENTRANTS. You have to have some kind of x-factor at that point because with that huge a sample size, there's a good chance that more than a few competitors similar to you exist. EVERYONE at that top table had to be at least a little lucky to get there, or else they couldn't have prevailed against all the similar players to them. Of all the UR Delver players at that event, how many made it to the top 16? of all the MUD or Elf players, how many got in? Only 16 people can make the top 16, only 8 can make the top 8, when you've got a sample size of hundreds or thousands, you've got to have some help from variance no matter what you're playing. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of Brainstorm players missed the top cut, don't you worry. When you choose to ignore evidence that non-Blue decks top, you're just engaging in confirmation bias, you're not being "insightful". Now, if you're unsatisfied with the number of non-blue decks that top, go innovate something non-blue or accept that certain cards are just more viable than others. The answer is never going to be "jam the same Goblin/Jund list you've been playing for years whilst complaining".
I thought this was an important tournament concerning the future of Treasure Cruise, but from the looks of the top 16, it won't be banned (for now).
A lot of threads going on now. Let's see:
—Banning fetchlands: There are a couple reasons banning fetches but keeping Brainstorm wouldn't do much of anything other than push the format more into blue. One is that Brainstorm is broken by any shuffle effect. IIRC the early gro/thresh decks ran Land Grant before the onslaught fetches were printed. Banning fetches would probably make the best Brainstorm deck some sort of Bant deck with SFM and GSZ and possibly even Birthing Pod, since all those cards synergize with putting stuff back in the library and shuffling away chaff. (I would love to see this deck exist but sigh). The other is that reducing the mana consistency of non-blue decks wouldn't allow them to compete at a higher level than now anyway, so there wouldn't be any catchup. All the "every deck plays fetches lololol ban fetches huehuehue" shouting is silly because they are available to every color and deck. And by the way: Many of the non-blue strategies that are competing at a high level (Burn, D&T, Dredge) don't even use fetches. Therefore, the best fetchland deck is blue.
I would listen to banning only Scalding Tarn, Polluted Delta, Misty Rainforest, and Flooded Strand, though. This would allow the blue decks to keep Brainstorm but open them up more to Wasteland which would benefit attrition-based non-blue decks and start to balance things out a little bit.
—Whether Legacy is the "brainstorm format:" That shouldn't matter if the card is broken. Whether or not there is a gentleman's agreement (a phrase used all too often in reference to eternal magic, which calls into question the integrity of running high-level tournaments in these formats at all) not to ban it is a different question as to whether it should be banned. Can we keep that point out of this thread?
—Whether it's "sour grapes" and any solution that impacts non-BS decks in addition to BS decks is dismissed: This is somewhat like the previous point but whatever, fair enough to discuss. The problem I have with this is that rather than banning one card, these solutions are always scorched earth ideas like banning 10 fetchlands or a ton of other spells (usually one or some combination of Delver, Terminus, SDT, S&T, TNN, SFM, Treasure Cruise). Why are we banning multiple cards to save one? If that many cards are irreparably broken by Brainstorm, it's only a matter of time before another is discovered simply due to the fact that hundreds of new cards come out each year and there are already thousands in the pool. The fact is that Brainstorm's effect is so unique and powerful that there a number of cards that could interact with it in ways we can't really anticipate. It is simply too easily broken.
—Whether or not it's fair to have to hate on Brainstorm like we have to "hate" on creatures: The problem here is that Brainstorm is one card in one color. Creatures appear in every color and perform different actions. Most attack you till you die. Some ramp you. Some cheat stuff into play. Some are hate cards themselves. Further, there are 92 creatures in Beta and 81 non-creature spells that mention creatures in Beta. That's 173 out of 292 cards. The game has been about creature combat far longer than it's been about "testing skill" with cantrips. I could just as easily say to the "go play modern" crowd that if you don't like a creature-combat based card game to find something else to play.
—Whether or not it's good to have a 12-16 card package of card selection in one color: As I saw someone else say, and can't remember who or where, the only reason there is any diversity in Legacy is due to pet decks and cost. The number of archetypes in a tournament would be drastically reduced if there was perfect card availability and everyone just played the best deck. For example, I choose to play a non-blue deck to keep my costs down, and because if I was to buy into the cheapest and best blue deck (which has been some flavor of URx delver for a couple years) I just run the risk of losing out in a bunch of mirrors and that's not how I want to spend my $40 and a weekend. At least when I resolve a Siege Rhino my opponent and I have a good laugh. A friend of mine who has been playing Delver since the card was printed says that his matches aren't interesting or fun other than the intrinsic enjoyment one gets out of winning when he's on a good run. When you lose with it, it's just a frustrating, feel-bad day. Even with all the Brainstorm lovers in this thread, the GP coverage thread is lousy with complaints about the decks featured. But that's what the format is: Dominated by blue-based decks.
—Whether removing Brainstorm makes Legacy more like Modern (related to the above two points): Modern goes overboard with bans on card selection and advantage. Besides the fact that Brainstorm (and Sylvan Library) simply isn't legal in the format, Ponder, Preordain, Green Sun's Zenith, Stoneforge Mystic, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Glimpse of Nature, and Ancestral Vision are all banned. And yet the decks that have dominated modern since its inception have tended to include the best selection available: Serum Visions, Dark Confidant, Birthing Pod, Chord of Calling. And you can see that when a new card that does anything remotely close to card selection emerges, the format is shaken to its core: Treasure Cruise and Jeskai Ascendancy demonstrate this. But take a look at the Legacy banned list: Mystical Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, Frantic Search, Demonic Consultation, Vampiric Tutor, Yawgmoth's Bargain, and I'll probably get an argument for even more. The variance-reducing tools are always more dangerous than the actual bombs themselves. Deckbuilders always gravitate to that. That, incidentally, is also why the target is Brainstorm even though it's "only a cantrip." It's far and away the most powerful cantrip in the card pool, and it warps the format around it.
This was a truly great description of the overall problem. I snipped just the part I wanted to discuss to avoid back to back wall of text (and I say that in a respectful way because you described the issue in a very effective manner that took a lot of words to do right.)Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Brainstorm is not just a cantrip. If it was just a cantrip and used only that way it would still be powerful but it wouldn't necessarily be broken.
This is what Brainstorm is, point by point:
1. It's an instant.
2. It's a cantrip.
3. It lets you draw the top 3 cards of your pile.
4. It lets you keep as many of the cards that you draw with it as you have worse cards in hand when you play it.
5. It lets you shuffle away cards you do not want after putting them back on top when it combines with any of the reshuffle effects in Legacy of which fetchlands are the most ubiquitous.
6. It lets you dig for a spell you need at instant speed in response to somebody else playing a spell or activating an ability. This allows the non-active player to have more control over many situations than the active player, particularly if the active player is not playing blue. (Flashing red light here, the active player is supposed to be largely in control of his own turn according to WotC.)
7. It lets you hide cards on top of your library at instant speed in response to something the active player has cast as a Sorcery or activated as an ability. (Same flashing red light.)
8. It acts as a counterspell with Counterbalance in play, allowing you to put the correct CMC card from your hand on top of your library in response to a Counterbalance trigger. It does this without costing you a card since you draw it's replacement when it resolves.
It does many more things as well but those things are not particularly relevant at this point in the Legacy meta, such as protecting the top of your library from opposing manipulation, drawing cards that other effects have put on the top at instant speed, triggering other effects that are draw-based. At times those things have been relevant (Mystical Tutor - Flash, etc.) but now they are not. Brainstorm however impinges significantly on design space due to the up to 5 card differential it creates on the top of the library and in the hand at instant speed.
A single, very set-in-stone green list that contains half a banned list, can't even consider including most cards ever because the quirks of those banned cards demand green creatures and has basically no maindeck interaction. Not green as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
I love playing Brainstorm (sometimes) and I also love not playing Brainstorm (other times). Some people always hate it. Some people always love it. Some people feel it's necessary. Others disagree. I really doubt anyone comes to this thread and changes their opinion, period. This discussion is the very definition of pointless.
I am not "defending" Brainstorm. I'm not denying it's power level. I am not attempting to say it does not "warp" the meta in certain ways. I am saying that Wizards does not feel it is a problem worthy of banning. I am not saying they are right. I'm not saying they have always been right in the past, or that they will be right in the future.
The facts are as follows:
1.) Brainstorm is almost certainly the most powerful card in Legacy.
2.) It is not banned.
3.) It certainly does not seem that Wizards is interested in banning it, not matter what data we collect or points we make.
What do you want to do with those facts? We can't change them, unless we get the ability to print new cards, modify the B&R list ourselves, or work at Wizards and be on the B&R committee.
We debate them on the B&R thread because it's fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Brainstorm has needed the axe for a while now. Things have gotten so bad lately that I'm hopeful wizards will finally do it.
Well then, if you find circular arguments fun, by all means carry on.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
Now then, I'm out of here before someone mentions Balance... :cool:
I've looked through the collated results on the Council and elsewhere for Top 8's and Top 16's where possible, and every single thing points to Brainstorm being the #1 card, in terms of power and consistency. There is extensive evidence (as far back as 2009) that Brainstorm is one of, if not the, most powerful card in Legacy. And as for my suggestion, it would be for a minimum of nine months, and more likely 15-18 months for the ban to be properly assessed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This isn't like the Survival ban, where people were just clamoring for a ban because sometimes the deck just went nuts, and the reasoning for the ban was that Survival was 'the enabler'. Don't expect players to just stand there and say that anyone calling for the ban on Brainstorm is just whining and being sanctimonious. That leads nowhere productive. I would merely be happy with decks just sometimes crapping the bed, which is a much rarer occurence when you can consistently hide the two 'best' cards in your hand, or shuffle away 'bad' cards for the situation. I like the fact that BS is A Thing in Legacy, don't get me wrong; but when the format has to consistently dedicate a number of cards in the main to fight a shell, then you know that that particular shell is unhealthy. I would also be moderately in favor of a potential ban on fetches, but the fury would probably ignite the atmosphere.
...I guess, what I want to say is that I want things to change as the last banlist change was essentially Survival, and the biggest target is painted extremely firmly on Brainstorm's back.
If we really want change, whatever change that would be, we need a community advocate. Someone with a high enough profile that can use their voice to get the ear (eye) of Wizards. We don't have that, because our highest profile players are not what we could call "Voices of Legacy." Like him or not, Menendian is that for Vintage and now Randy has stepped up too, which has certainly raised the profile of the format. Of course, it had essentially no profile before that, but I think the point still stands, we need a good, strong, clear and (preferably) unbiased community advocate.
Oh, they do top... At the very respectable rate of 1 out of 8. Maybe 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
#GoPlayModern Lovely rebuttal to be sure. Unfortunately Needleds has that market cornered on those, I'm afraid. You'll need to try just a tad bit harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
While you play those OP Brainstorm decks, AmIRite? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out that SotF wasn't banned because of a certain penetration in the meta or for being an enabler for Vengevine. Reading the official B&R announcement was pretty clear despite people keep ignoring it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I have a slight Problem if you complain about BS converting situational bad cards into better ones, but advocate for SotFs unbanning despite the card doing the same conversion in all decks that ran it, but with the offending, additional abuse as an actual cardadvantage- and/or combo-engine.
It's just disturbing, that people think the banning of brainstorm would negate the dominance of Ponder/Preordain/Probe/Treasure Cruise/Delver/FoW/Daze and suddenly all their non-blue pet-decks can compete.
Edit:
Oh, they even invited Stephen years ago to talk about Vintage, the B&R list and the reserved list .... and decided, that they give a fuck about all that! You can read about it here. All they have done is Vintage Masters on MTGO while people still lose their dicerolls and games to T1 Lodestone Golems for now more than 4 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by H
A lot of Maverick fan boys I assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Ever heard of Maverick? Nic Fit? Survival (pre ban of course)? All of them used to be good picks to combat the blue decks until WotC decided that giving a flipped Delver flying was a good idea (in addition to preventing green from having new fliers to actually block it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Also, Elves! even with Cradle, NO, Glimpse, GSZ, and Symbiote/Visionary loops, wasnt exactly the juggernaut it is now until Craterhoof Behemoth was printed. No point here: just a nitpick.
Dark Maverick does quite well currently considering how underplayed it is. I tend to point at Goblins, Zoo, Lands and the like; decks which absolutely refuse to play any hatebears, stack- or hand-interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Question for everyone to either ignore or answer as you see fit:
Has anything ever said on this thread ever actually changed your views on the banning or unbanning of a card?
Personally, while I find this thread entertaining I am burning out on it and wondered how often it had an actual constructive outcome. I mean, it's a podium for us all to use, but is it even worth taking the stand?
Anyway, I am going to go back to lurking.
I hope that WotC finally ban BS just to stop this thread from continuing.
I'd advocate for this if I believed it would actually make any difference. In reality most people would probably just find another thing to complain about. I mean, look at the top poll from forever ago. Ban SDT? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I think we should just change the title of this thread to "All B/R update vitriol" because that's about all there is here...
The joke it: It would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
You ban Brainstorm and can wait 4 weeks until Preordain/SDT takes the spot in the infamous blue-cantrip-shell to once more outclass every other card-selection and providing the best method to reduce variance and people start over with "how unfair are Preordain/Ponder if they can fix greedy one-landers!?"
Then we would have the next 200 pages of this thread filled of "how Ponder is like Demonic Tutor" and that it should be banned because White does not habe access to a similar effect.
What about ban blue color?
Clever. And funny. Oh my...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Well, I'm really not sure what's so appealling on the metagame where you might predict nearly everything and each deck plays the same. But I guess some people love it when they got free wins so they can stand this shitty gaming experience...
You are wrong about the first point. From the official B&R announcement: "In recent months, Survival of the Fittest decks have been outperforming other decks in Legacy. This has caused the competitive format to become significantly less diverse."Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...y/feature/122l
Having a permanent with an activated ability as your draw engine is significantly less good than choosing from up to 9 cards at instant speed for one mana. I play a deck with 3 Sylvan Library and 4 Green Sun's Zenith and it's not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Delver decks never played Preordain, but they all adopted Treasure Cruise and had been playing Probe in some amount for a while. The deck doesn't want that effect. Taking brainstorm out of the equation and replacing it with Preordain makes the deck significantly less consistent. There are powerful spells and effects in other colors that only need a single extra turn to make Legacy a much wider open format both color and strategy wise. Tapping the brakes on the Delver deck is good for everybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear