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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Against a deck like Infect, you either try and lock them out with a cheap card like Peacekeeper, or you just overload on removal. There's not any other options. Ross, and any good infect player, basically attempts to enforce a chokepoint on your removal spells in that matchup.
Mentor maindeck isn't liable to last in my opinion. Dig was broken, so diluting the deck with a card that had nothing to do with it made sense. Mentor is just a random card that randomly wins games; it's somewhat ironic to see it exploited in a version that doubled down on consistently activating the miracles and copies of Counterbalance in the deck. I suppose the biggest issue with the Ponder lists was the weakened combo matchup form no maindeck Clique; Mentor probably helps that.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Pithin Needle and Izzet Statiscaster are great in the Infect matchup.
Cavern of Souls + Izzet Statiscaster is basically game over against Infect (if you are still alive on Turn 3 of course ^^;).
One more argument in favor of the Legend version... but i'm wasting my time here since everybody is blinded by Phillip's version. Go ahead, play his version and lose in the mirror against a Legend version and against combo.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
Against a deck like Infect, you either try and lock them out with a cheap card like Peacekeeper, or you just overload on removal. There's not any other options. Ross, and any good infect player, basically attempts to enforce a chokepoint on your removal spells in that matchup.
Mentor maindeck isn't liable to last in my opinion. Dig was broken, so diluting the deck with a card that had nothing to do with it made sense. Mentor is just a random card that randomly wins games; it's somewhat ironic to see it exploited in a version that doubled down on consistently activating the miracles and copies of Counterbalance in the deck. I suppose the biggest issue with the Ponder lists was the weakened combo matchup form no maindeck Clique; Mentor probably helps that.
I agree with your last statement. I played Phillip's 60 today (and similar 75 but with metagame considerations) at the local Legacy tonight and I hated it. The most Mentor ever did for me was get an opponent down to 1 and then eat STP and his disciples got bounced by Jace. I ended winning that game via my own Jace. The other times he was either countered or sided out because he was too slow. Him eating a counter is fine I suppose but not at the expense of 3 mana, often giving my opponent free reign to cast what they want next turn.
Going down to 3 Terminus just felt bad, especially when there are decks playing CotV and you're stuck with 2 STPs in hand. Granted, you won't be able to BS them back either, but when that hand also has 2 Terminuses, that means you have 1 literal out (4 virtual if you count Jace -> BS -> back on top.) And when post board decks often bring in more creatures, having less Terminuses is bad.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
Pithin Needle and Izzet Statiscaster are great in the Infect matchup.
Cavern of Souls + Izzet Statiscaster is basically game over against Infect (if you are still alive on Turn 3 of course ^^;).
One more argument in favor of the Legend version... but i'm wasting my time here since everybody is blinded by Phillip's version. Go ahead, play his version and lose in the mirror against a Legend version and against combo.
totally agree. I don't really see how is that version winning against a Cavern + Venser or a set CounterTop.
In the mirror I play 1 Pithing Needle in case opponent plays Jace, so I don't even waste my rebs/U.Absent on it
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
totally agree. I don't really see how is that version winning against a Cavern + Venser or a set CounterTop.
In the mirror I play 1 Pithing Needle in case opponent plays Jace, so I don't even waste my rebs/U.Absent on it
So you're x REB effects go against their... What? Ponders?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal3000
Infect matchup is one where i'm really unsure how to sideboard correctly at the moment (Tons of great to okay cards in the board, not sure what to cut. Flusterstorm, Staticaster, Clique, Wear/Tear and REB all seem reasonable. Jaces, Councils and Mentors seem like natural cuts?! but beyond that you still have more potential board-ins than board-outs)
, but the Flusterstorms definitly perform really well there and the Staticasters were insane, even so much that i wanted a 2nd for Infect and Death & Taxes, which are both fairly popular locally for me. I think if the meta filled with these decks 2 Staticasters might be reasonable.
I played a lot of Miracles vs Infect leading up to GP Lille as my friend was on Infect, I'm not so sure Mentor is a correct cut. I found that Miracles is capable of holding off the, as others have nicely put it, 'delver draw' but then fails to put the game away before they're able to sculpt another strong hand and find an Inkmoth. It needs to be tested more, but remember postboard they will have an answer to CB so you don't have all the time in the world. Invig and Become Immense are also hard to counter with CB. I wasn't playing mentor at the time of testing, so take this with a grain of salt, but it's worth playing some games with Mentor to see.
Council's also circumnavigates Vines, so I don't think it's as clear a cut as some people mention. It also deals with things like Library, Rod, Needle etc if you wan't find Wear//Tear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
So you're x REB effects go against their... What? Ponders?
Counterbalance? Snaps? Cliques?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
on their Counterspell, Counterbalance, Cliques, critical Brainstorms..
Redirect yesterday was just great.
A huge battle over my Counterbalance to be sure to resolve the Visions on his upkeep and then.. zak
I have found Pyroclams, Entreat and Redirect to be the only things I really want against Bug.
All the rest is noise, baits and cantrips.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skyout
With regards to the idea of having singletons in the sideboard I think Philipp Schönegger put it best in his
last article,
"Having one of the highest digging powers in the format, the highest if you take the average time played each game, enables you to also reliably find certain silver bullets."
I think your sideboard is fine, but if you read the comments of that article, I asked about why Blood Moon wasn't in the sideboard. The response I got was that Blood Moon, while some of the time will just win you the game on the spot, other times it will just be a sub-optimal to almost useless card. The spots Blood Moon takes in the board can better be utilized with cards that perform better in the majority of matches. I personally don't have a problem with double up on some of the spell like containment priest and wear/tear if you expecting to use them frequently in your meta, however I think in an open meta the singleton approach can give you a greater match up against a wider range of decks.
Thank you for this fantastic explanation. All of this makes perfect sense. I will return to my sideboard with a bit more to consider.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I agree that everyone at this point has anticorps to Blood Moon nowaday.
it's just a hard to cast tempo gainer, not anymore the win-on-the-spot card it used to be.
Clique and Pyroclasm will matter more in next meta
Anyway yes, the word weak doesn't suit Jace. I should have said fragile.
It is way too fragile for contemporary meta. I am not playing it for now.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
I agree that everyone at this point has anticorps to Blood Moon nowaday.
it's just a hard to cast tempo gainer, not anymore the win-on-the-spot card it used to be.
Clique and Pyroclasm will matter more in next meta
Anyway yes, the word weak doesn't suit Jace. I should have said fragile.
It is way too fragile for contemporary meta. I am not playing it for now.
jace is far from fragile. In fact he's one of the most resilient planes walkers and one of the reasons he is the best planes walker. Furthermore, if there ever was a deck to play it in this is it because of all of the protection. There are going to be answers to every card that gets played but that doesn't mean that its weak / fragile.
On a separate note I find your posts not very constructive. Some of the things you are saying are just crazy bad that you've caught my attention and i don't even post here normally.
You have odd choices and I feel like you don't understand the reason certain cards are included in the main deck. Lets take your choice to use Unexpectedly Absent over council's judgement... Council's was included because it hits things that cannot be targeted such as TNN. It's also a 3 drop which is nice to have when looking for a 3cmc card to flip for CB. It can be snapped just as well. Unexpectedly absent is good but it serves a different purpose and Miracles is about solving problems. These cards solve different problems. There are also several posts you've made recently and have been called out on. Don't just spam posts, try to think about them before you post and see if you are wasting peoples time or being constructive.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
Pithin Needle and Izzet Statiscaster are great in the Infect matchup.
Cavern of Souls + Izzet Statiscaster is basically game over against Infect (if you are still alive on Turn 3 of course ^^;).
One more argument in favor of the Legend version... but i'm wasting my time here since everybody is blinded by Phillip's version. Go ahead, play his version and lose in the mirror against a Legend version and against combo.
Personally I'm a fan of the Legends version. I think it's a lot of fun to play. Venser is a really good card and answers so many things. But i don't know if I'm confident running it at the GP seeing as how all of the recent miracles decks run almost the same list. The legends version hasn't been "proven" i guess is the right term.
The Snapcaster version and the 2 Mentor version are the tried and true decks that put up the best results. Which is why people run with them.
My first version of Miracles ran 2 Clique 1 Venser 1 Cavern of Souls and 1 karakas. It did pretty well in testing.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I still run a full playset of Jace. I was never a fan of the Ponder hype but I'm more than willing to burn Jaces as 4-mana Brainstorms in this deck. I basically want as many ways to cast Brainstorm as possible, and I can't say I've done much crying about being Jace flooded. I have considered playing a third Clique maindeck, but I do remember getting flooded with that card.
I actually am trying out 2 Ponders in place of the Red Blasts I used to have maindeck. Going back to Spell Pierce was too painful. REB wasn't that great against Combo, and I haven't decided whether Ponder or maindeck REB is better against the random Delver decks. I feel as if they mostly win off Wasteland screwing you over, so I'm inclined to go with the two Ponder.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I still run a full playset of Jace. I was never a fan of the Ponder hype but I'm more than willing to burn Jaces as 4-mana Brainstorms in this deck. I basically want as many ways to cast Brainstorm as possible, and I can't say I've done much crying about being Jace flooded. I have considered playing a third Clique maindeck, but I do remember getting flooded with that card.
I actually am trying out 2 Ponders in place of the Red Blasts I used to have maindeck. Going back to Spell Pierce was too painful. REB wasn't that great against Combo, and I haven't decided whether Ponder or maindeck REB is better against the random Delver decks. I feel as if they mostly win off Wasteland screwing you over, so I'm inclined to go with the two Ponder.
Legends build is much better vs combo and other miracles lists, but to be honest with the ban of DTT and the rise of fair decks I feel like ponder miracles is well positioned.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
I played Phillip's 60 today (and similar 75 but with metagame considerations) at the local Legacy tonight and I hated it. The most Mentor ever did for me was get an opponent down to 1 and then eat STP and his disciples got bounced by Jace. I ended winning that game via my own Jace.
Sounds like Mentor won that game! I mean, your opponent struggled hard to overcome Mentor and his diciples. Would you have won if his Jace used Brainstorm multiple times ^_^?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
Personally I'm a fan of the Legends version. I think it's a lot of fun to play. Venser is a really good card and answers so many things. But i don't know if I'm confident running it at the GP seeing as how all of the recent miracles decks run almost the same list. The legends version hasn't been "proven" i guess is the right term.
The Snapcaster version and the 2 Mentor version are the tried and true decks that put up the best results. Which is why people run with them.
My first version of Miracles ran 2 Clique 1 Venser 1 Cavern of Souls and 1 karakas. It did pretty well in testing.
I know there are not many results for the Legend version but there are still some: Joe Losset keeps playing it and doing good results with it and i personally finished 14th at GP Lille and 2nd at the French Legacy Cup Last Chance (on 145 players) with it.
One more argument: If you are expecting a lot of Shardless BUG like in the last SCG Opens, i think those Legend versions are better than the 4-Ponder no legend MD version since 2 MD REB and 2 Vensers in the 75 is awesome against them.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I despise the legends mana base (I like good mana, okay?) but even I will concede that the legends version will easily tilt the matchup in your favor instead of in the shardless player's favor. The matchup is almost a nightmare for them now.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
Venser is a really good card and answers so many things. But i don't know if I'm confident running it at the GP seeing as how all of the recent miracles decks run almost the same list. The legends version hasn't been "proven" i guess is the right term.
The Snapcaster version and the 2 Mentor version are the tried and true decks that put up the best results. Which is why people run with them.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...s-14931#online
Based off MODO numbers aggregated with SCG Open and IQ data, it looks like 30% of decks have Clique + Karakas, 30% have maindeck Mentors, and the remaining 40% I assume are just running 3 Snapcaster and whichever number of Ponders.
It's always been like this. People on this forum specifically were just convinced that there was only one "good" version of Miracles. It wasn't even until the use of Dig peaked that four copies of Ponder became the "average" number on this website. Most people were winning with a wide range of builds.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
I know there are not many results for the Legend version but there are still some: Joe Losset keeps playing it and doing good results with it and i personally finished 14th at GP Lille and 2nd at the French Legacy Cup Last Chance (on 145 players) with it.
One more argument: If you are expecting a lot of Shardless BUG like in the last SCG Opens, i think those Legend versions are better than the 4-Ponder no legend MD version since 2 MD REB and 2 Vensers in the 75 is awesome against them.
How would you build it now? As i said, i love the Legends version but it was also mentioned the mana base is a bit janky. I can say this from experience. But if i were to build it, i might try something like this.
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser Shaper Servant
Instant//Sorcery 24
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Pyroblast
2x Entreat the Angles
Other 11
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
I could see cutting 1 EtA for 1 more REB effect main deck. But cutting it gives you only 4 solid win cons. While the mentor version has 6.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...s-14931#online
Based off MODO numbers aggregated with SCG Open and IQ data, it looks like 30% of decks have Clique + Karakas, 30% have maindeck Mentors, and the remaining 40% I assume are just running 3 Snapcaster and whichever number of Ponders.
It's always been like this. People on this forum specifically were just convinced that there was only one "good" version of Miracles. It wasn't even until the use of Dig peaked that four copies of Ponder became the "average" number on this website. Most people were winning with a wide range of builds.
I appreciate this sort of input. Im new to the deck so i have been doing research and testing for months to find the version that works the best. I think what it boils down to is an individuals play style.
I have personally never been a fan of Ponder. I always feel like I'm drawing into a cantrip to try and draw into an answer opposed to just drawing an answer / threat.
That said i see the merit ponder has. It's really important for Miracles to have shuffle effects. Now i haven't tested this enough to say with any sort of factual data. But i have had several games where i time walk myself because i can't shuffle. It also helps with CB flips and pitches to FoW. Ponders also help with using"silver bullets" in the side board and having a way to find them easier.
Something also to consider. Decks evolve based off the meta. I didn't play miracles before 4 ponders became the norm. But it was probably a bit different back then. Which allowed for a wider range of decks. This is just speculation of course.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
I have personally never been a fan of Ponder. I always feel like I'm drawing into a cantrip to try and draw into an answer opposed to just drawing an answer / threat.
Surely this is why it's good? You find an answer if you need an answer or a threat if you need a threat.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Surely this is why it's good? You find an answer if you need an answer or a threat if you need a threat.
Im not sure if you misunderstood me or if i wrote it wrong.
Without Ponder you can have more threats/answers.
With Ponder you are drawing the ponder then casting it in the hopes of finding an answer.
There are merits to both. But the thing i like the most about Ponder is the option to shuffle.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Son Alexander
This is how i would build it:
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Counterbalance
Manabase:
I wouldn't go below 18 blue sources so both our manabase are fine imo.
As much as i like Cavern of Souls, i think that the Mountain is better than Cavern in more matchup that's why i play Mountain MD and Cavern in SB. I also like to have access to a 23rd land against RUG, DnT and Lands.
I would still play 2/3 Ponders or 23 lands and 1 Ponder. In fact, i hesitated a long time before Cavern of Souls as a 23rd land and a second Ponder.
Between the 2nd Karakas and the 2nd Plains, it's still up to debate but so far i never had the problem of casting Entreat the Angels because i didn't have the second Plains. Karakas is great in our deck and against DnT, Reanimator, SnS and random legendary creature (Ruric Thar, Jaya Balard, Gaddock Teeg etc...); it's a bit greedy to play 2 but i really like it so far. Since i don't play 2 Plains, Council's Judgement and Supreme Verdict becomes less playable.
I like playing 10 fetchlands (shuffling is very important as you said)
MD:
I like your creatures lineup.
I don't think you need Council's Judgement when you Venser/Karakas.
I would cut a StP for the second REB effect but not an Entreat.
Playing some Mentors MD is a consideration but i would play them in the sideboard. I really like to play my spells in my opponent's turn and i don't like turning otherwise dead MD removals on.
SB:
It would be great to see yours. A deck is 75 cards not just 60. To build your best MD, you have to take into account what you are planning to side in/out in every important matchup and build your deck in consequence. For example, i don't like having 4 CB and 8 removals MD but i certainly want 4 CB and at least 8 removals in my 75, which explains my probably controversial splits.
You can find my side in/out guide a few pages before (around 10 pages before i would say).
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
Im not sure if you misunderstood me or if i wrote it wrong.
Without Ponder you can have more threats/answers.
With Ponder you are drawing the ponder then casting it in the hopes of finding an answer.
There are merits to both. But the thing i like the most about Ponder is the option to shuffle.
The absolute number you have doesn't matter though, unless you run out of things (they kill/counter all your win conditions. You use all your removal spells). These "run out of a type of card" scenarios are very rare.
What matters is the relative ratio of card types.
Compare these 2 decks:
1 Entreat the Angels / 2 Ponder / 1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels / 2 Swords to Plowshares
The 2nd deck "has more threats" and "has more answers", but if you're topdecking from Deck A you have a 75% chance of finding a threat when you need it and a 75% chance of finding an answer when you need it, while Deck B only offers you a 50% chance of finding a threat and a 50% chance of finding an answer, each being worse when in the cases where you need the other one.
Now obviously in a 60 card deck with 4 Ponder the percentages become much much smaller, but the advantage of looking for the type of card you need instead of randomly getting one of these cards out of a slightly bigger sample is still there.
The only real downside of ponder is the tempo-loss of spending 1 mana on digging, but we are playing a deck that's built to use Sensei's Divining Top many times in the span of the game, dropping 1 mana cantripping is not going to ruin you. So unless you believe that a big amount of your games go to a state where you exhaust all your cards of a certain type, cantripping more is just strictly better.
And as you said, it's an additional source of painless shuffling.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
@Son Alexander
This is how i would build it:
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Counterbalance
Manabase:
I wouldn't go below 18 blue sources so both our manabase are fine imo.
As much as i like Cavern of Souls, i think that the Mountain is better than Cavern in more matchup that's why i play Mountain MD and Cavern in SB. I also like to have access to a 23rd land against RUG, DnT and Lands.
I would still play 2/3 Ponders or 23 lands and 1 Ponder. In fact, i hesitated a long time before Cavern of Souls as a 23rd land and a second Ponder.
Between the 2nd Karakas and the 2nd Plains, it's still up to debate but so far i never had the problem of casting Entreat the Angels because i didn't have the second Plains. Karakas is great in our deck and against DnT, Reanimator, SnS and random legendary creature (Ruric Thar, Jaya Balard, Gaddock Teeg etc...); it's a bit greedy to play 2 but i really like it so far. Since i don't play 2 Plains, Council's Judgement and Supreme Verdict becomes less playable.
I like playing 10 fetchlands (shuffling is very important as you said)
MD:
I like your creatures lineup.
I don't think you need Council's Judgement when you Venser/Karakas.
I would cut a StP for the second REB effect but not an Entreat.
Playing some Mentors MD is a consideration but i would play them in the sideboard. I really like to play my spells in my opponent's turn and i don't like turning otherwise dead MD removals on.
SB:
It would be great to see yours. A deck is 75 cards not just 60. To build your best MD, you have to take into account what you are planning to side in/out in every important matchup and build your deck in consequence. For example, i don't like having 4 CB and 8 removals MD but i certainly want 4 CB and at least 8 removals in my 75, which explains my probably controversial splits.
You can find my side in/out guide a few pages before (around 10 pages before i would say).
I would probably cut Councils Judgement for a second REB effect. I love removal too much but neve cared for Judgement but like ponder i know it's uses. Double W and sorcery makes it less attractive. I also prefer to play only on my opponents turn if possible.
As for sideboard. I agree. I would need more time to write it up. This was just a quick main deck example. The testing I've done with Cavern yielded great results. Even though it's colorless. I was never a dead land. It was my first choice to spin top if i didn't have a wizard in hand. If i had a third volcanic island, i would run it in place of a mountain. Yes it's Wastelandable but there are loads of targets for Wasteland. Most decks can't get them all.
But as you said both mana bases work. I just prefer the ability to make key spells uncounterable if i go with this version.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal3000
The absolute number you have doesn't matter though, unless you run out of things (they kill/counter all your win conditions. You use all your removal spells). These "run out of a type of card" scenarios are very rare.
What matters is the relative ratio of card types.
Compare these 2 decks:
1 Entreat the Angels / 2 Ponder / 1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels / 2 Swords to Plowshares
The 2nd deck "has more threats" and "has more answers", but if you're topdecking from Deck A you have a 75% chance of finding a threat when you need it and a 75% chance of finding an answer when you need it, while Deck B only offers you a 50% chance of finding a threat and a 50% chance of finding an answer, each being worse when in the cases where you need the other one.
Now obviously in a 60 card deck with 4 Ponder the percentages become much much smaller, but the advantage of looking for the type of card you need instead of randomly getting one of these cards out of a slightly bigger sample is still there.
The only real downside of ponder is the tempo-loss of spending 1 mana on digging, but we are playing a deck that's built to use Sensei's Divining Top many times in the span of the game, dropping 1 mana cantripping is not going to ruin you. So unless you believe that a big amount of your games go to a state where you exhaust all your cards of a certain type, cantripping more is just strictly better.
And as you said, it's an additional source of painless shuffling.
I agree with you on this and the use of ponder.
However, i was referring to the addition of cards like Red Blasts as EXTRA threats / answers. Sorry. I didn't clarify.
So having the same example above as you listed but then having things like REBs or Venser in place of ponder gives you different options. Not necessarily more mind you. Just different.
It seems to boil down to play style. Currently i an running the ponder version with 2 mentor main deck and i like it. The shuffle effects are what make me like it. It's smoother and gets "stuck" less.
Ponder version has 14 shuffle effects
Legends has 9 shuffle effects.
A lot of the time the legends version can't use Counterbalance effectively due to this. An argument could be made to drop 1 CB for this reason. Since the deck inherently has more removal main deck anyways.
Thanks all for the great discussion thus far. I love to talk shop and see other views.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
After a bit of tinkering. This is draft 2 of my Legends version. Sideboard included this time. Needs work though.
Creatures 6
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser Shaper Servant
1x Monestary Mentor
Instant//Sorcery 22
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental blast
1x Entreat the Angles
Other 10
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
Sideboard 15
2x Wear//Tear
2x Containment Priest
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Venser Shaper Servant
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Rest in Peace
3x Flusterstorm
Post thoughts if interested. I'm totally open to hearing cuts and changes that should be made due to the meta. In the sideboard specifically.
Edit: i was an idiot and forgot a key card in Sideboard. Flusterstorms need to be in here
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
After a bit of tinkering. This is draft 2 of my Legends version. Sideboard included this time. Needs work though.
Creatures 6
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser Shaper Servant
1x Monastery Mentor
Instant//Sorcery 22
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental blast
1x Entreat the Angles
Other 10
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
Sideboard 15
2x Wear//Tear
2x Containment Priest
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Venser Shaper Servant
2x Izzet Staticaster
2x Pithing Needle
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Post thoughts if interested. I'm totally open to hearing cuts and changes that should be made due to the meta. In the sideboard specifically.
I will always try to play as many ponders as I can. I don't dislike your list, but I will post one with a slightly more tailored sideboard and adding in ponders, for those that choose to play it. Again, reiterating, I'm a fan of your list, but this is how I would play it if I were to do so:
Creatures 6
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Monastery Mentor
Instant//Sorcery 22
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
Other 10
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
Sideboard 15
2x Wear//Tear
1x Containment Priest
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
1x Keranos, God of Storms
3x Flusterstorm
EDIT: Didn't want to play maindeck Red blasts at all in an open metagame, without basic mountain and only 2 volcanics in your deck.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
I will always try to play as many ponders as I can. I don't dislike your list, but I will post one with a slightly more tailored sideboard and adding in ponders, for those that choose to play it. Again, reiterating, I'm a fan of your list, but this is how I would play it if I were to do so:
Creatures 6
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Monastery Mentor
Instant//Sorcery 22
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
Other 10
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
Sideboard 15
2x Wear//Tear
1x Containment Priest
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
1x Keranos, God of Storms
3x Flusterstorm
EDIT: Didn't want to play maindeck Red blasts at all in an open metagame, without basic mountain and only 2 volcanics in your deck.
I agree. If i owned 4 Scalding Tarn and a third Volcanic it works work out better. I would sideboard the mountain and cut an island to run a third volcanic.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
just to know, do you play Jace g2,3 in the mirror?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
just to know, do you play Jace g2,3 in the mirror?
YES YOU DO.
(Not accidently caps)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi everyone, I'm also playing Legend Version and would love your feedback.
21 LAND
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
6 CREATURES
3 Snacaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
33 SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angesl
3 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
A few points / considerations on the main deck:
- I'm trying to play as many Ponders as possible (3 - 4).
- I'm trying to play 4 Counterbalance, but notice that other Legend lists are playing 3. What's the reason for this beyond space in the main?
- I'm only playing 1 Karakas and 1 Cavern, but wish I could increase that to 2 Karakas and 1 Cavern. The only thing I think can think to cut for the second Karakas would be a Mesa or an Island, but then I would be going from 17 to 16 blue sources...
- I'm only playing 1 Plains and 1 Mountain, so have cut Council's Judgement altogether. I do have one Entreat in the main, but if I fire that off it would usually be late enough in the game that I would have a Karakas / Tundra in play, or would be able to fetch for a Tundra in response to the Miracle trigger. This is greedy thought...
- I'm playing a 3 - 2 - 1 split of Snapcaster - Clique - Venser. I think 3 Snapcasters is the right number. Wish I had room for 3 Clique, but moved the 3rd to the board.
- I'm playing 21 land and 3 ponders...
15 SIDEBOARD
3 Flusterstorm (Mirror, Delver, BUG, Combo, Burn)
1 Entreat the Angles (Mirror, BUG, Midrange)
1 Vendillion Clique (Mirror, Delver, BUG, Combo)
2 Wear // Tear (Anti Hate, D&T, Fish, MUD)
2 Containment Priest (Combo, D&T, Fish, Elves)
2 Rest in Peace (BUG, Lands, Combo)
2 Izzet Staticaster (Delver, D&T, Elves, Anything with Tokens)
2 Red Blast (Mirror, Delver, Combo, BUG, Fish)
A few points / considerations on the sideboard:
- Definitely a work in progress.
- This version, for some reason, I was trying to increase redundancy, hence all the two of's
- Might be missing a Council's judgement effect?
- Might be able to use a Pyroclasm / Supreme Verdict effect (2 Staticaster good enough?)
- Would love to include a 2nd Venser in the board
- RIP vs Relic of Progenitus? Purely for Snapcaster considerations
Anyway, lots of thoughts, would love to hear what you guys think?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
A few points / considerations on the sideboard:
- Definitely a work in progress.
- This version, for some reason, I was trying to increase redundancy, hence all the two of's
- Might be missing a Council's judgement effect?
- Might be able to use a Pyroclasm / Supreme Verdict effect (2 Staticaster good enough?)
- Would love to include a 2nd Venser in the board
- RIP vs Relic of Progenitus? Purely for Snapcaster considerations
Anyway, lots of thoughts, would love to hear what you guys think?
1. Your list is not work in progress.
It's not too different from Top 32 Miracles in SCG St. Louis.
2. CJ, Pyroclasm, Verdict
These are all optional, some favor them some skip them. Most people have CJ in their 75, if not MD, run 1 in the SB, serves the same purpose as Disenchant or wear//tear (most of time, not exact). Most people have SDT hate coming from SB.
3. Graveyard
Most people still run 1 RiP, the 2nd graveyard hate most people chose Surgical but I dislike the card. As stated earlier, most of your opponents bring in artifact hate in the SB like null rod, which would disable relic. This has nothing to do with Snapcaster. When you bring in graveyard hate, you mean business, you want it fast and effective, like vs. dredge/reanimator, synergy with snapcaster is the least of your worries.
--------------------------------------
Miracles vs. Shardless
If you play Lossett's Wizard Legend version, you're in decent shape. However, most people aren't, which I suppose it's due to time issue.
Say you are on Legend-Ponder hybrid like Zhao http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=94106
If you look at the clip, https://youtu.be/zjDQcORqn5Q
Game 2 is really unfortunate, since Shardless somehow escaped Blood Moon lock. Give Shardless some credits, he got a Swamp in the SB game pre-Blood Moon, which I expect all the decent Sharldess players would do.
Game 3 is strange for the Miracles player. If Zhao reads the source, maybe he'll be wiling to answer. You have Brainstorm and StP in grave, you're floating Terminus and Entreat. Yes, your graveyard is under DRS pressure and your hand is being pressure from Liliana, but why would you play RiP from that board (21:00)? You could have easily just sweep the DRS using Terminus. Even if you lost your hand to Liliana, you can just try to find the 2nd White source land and Entreat in response to Liliana ult. There're many ways to deal with Liliana, including Venser, why cut off Snapcaster as an out by casting RiP? As matter of fact, I don't even like RiP as a SB against Shardless.
I expect this kind of grind would happen a lot at GP and more in the future.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
- I'm trying to play as many Ponders as possible (3 - 4).
- I'm trying to play 4 Counterbalance, but notice that other Legend lists are playing 3. What's the reason for this beyond space in the main?
The reason I argued to run 3 is listed in your first statement. I felt if you run 3+ ponders in the legends version then 4 Counterbalance made more sense as it gives you more shuffle effects to manipulate your top decks. By cutting a snapcaster mage and the ponders as well as a fetch lands in order to make room for the Legends package it decreases the CounterTops over all effectiveness.
So if you run a legends version with no ponders and more removal / creatures then it made sense to cut back on Counterbalance.
If you run 3+ ponders then 4 CB work better.
At least that's what I've found.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey all,
I am finalizing my list for GP Seattle. I need some final thoughts. I've taken to heart as much as possible from these discussions but im stuck on a few things. Here is my 75.
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monestary Mentor
Instant / Sorcery
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast
1 Councils Judgement
1 Entreat the Angels
Other Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta (i dont own Scalding Tarn yet)
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island (only own 2; would cut an island for 3rd)
4 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon
1 Wear / Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
After the last few replies to my posts (which i am grateful for) i drastically changed my sideboard. What i am stuck on is just a few things. Namely the main deck Pyroblast which i cut a Swords to Plowshares for. That really hurts in my mind. I considered readding it and cutting a snapcaster mage. But then realized snapcaster is both pyro or swords if needed.
So my question is, do i run the main deck pyro or is swords better?
If i DO cut the pyro in favor of the swords, what do i replace in my sideboard for the pyro? I'm not sure if Ethersworn Canonist is worth it cause the major reason to bring it in is vs ANT but they side in Aburpt Decays so it's just a primary target. But it does keep them from killing CB... so worth it or no?
I really hate the thought of not running 4 terminus and 4 Swords to Plowshares. I feel like those are the heart of what makes Miracles so resilient. But i feel like the current meta demands a certain number of REBs in the MD.
Other sideboard considerations are pretty common, Pyroclasm, Supreme Verdict, Misdirection or Divert to a less extent. Or doubling up on key card like Wear / Tear or Containment Priest.
Help my brain hurts!
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Finished second at the Swedish Legacy Nationals this weekend.
CREATURES (4)
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
INSTANTS (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council’s Judgment
The matches.
2-1 vs lands
1-2 vs rug delver
2-0 vs storm
2-1 vs bug delver
2-0 vs burn
2-0 vs ant
2-0 vs shardless bug
id for t8
2-0 vs grixis delver
2-1 vs bug delver
1-2 vs bug delver
I liked my list and and will play the same again next tournament. If you have any questions feel free to ask:)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Back! In honor of GP SeaTaco, I'll be streaming the 5pm EST daily today, maybe the 10pm EST one too :) come check it out at www.twitch.tv/anzi104
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
Finished second at the Swedish Legacy Nationals this weekend.
CREATURES (4)
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
INSTANTS (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council’s Judgment
The matches.
2-1 vs lands
1-2 vs rug delver
2-0 vs storm
2-1 vs bug delver
2-0 vs burn
2-0 vs ant
2-0 vs shardless bug
id for t8
2-0 vs grixis delver
2-1 vs bug delver
1-2 vs bug delver
I liked my list and and will play the same again next tournament. If you have any questions feel free to ask:)
Love the list, I might give it a go. Question: with 4 Ponder and 22 lands, did you ever find yourself flooding out and wishing one of your lands was something else? Your meta seems very mana-denial heavy so probably not, but do you think your list would work with 1 less land?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Love the list, I might give it a go. Question: with 4 Ponder and 22 lands, did you ever find yourself flooding out and wishing one of your lands was something else? Your meta seems very mana-denial heavy so probably not, but do you think your list would work with 1 less land?
OP of that list is a friend of mine, he considers karakas as a spell, not a land. 21 land w/o karakas is fine, but karakas is great as the 22nd land.
EDIT: Huge fan of his list. Helped him test a variant of it the past few weeks, really well done.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
What's the reasoning for the 3rd Snapcaster Mage in the sideboard?
That seems like a weird place for Tiago to hang.
