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When you put it in that reference grim tutor just seems dumb and a nice inclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
However you could just as well burning wish for empty the warrens.
What other situations would you want grim ??
I suppose I might as well pick one up its a good card for the deck. Plus theres always grim long in vintage.
Grim lets you effectively wish for a past in flames with a tutor already in trash for the guaranteed kill. Also lets you wish for ad nauseam the rare times when that's relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by pingpong
You are lucky with your pairings today. You didn't have to face both CBtop decks in the DE. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
Yeah, I got BUG twice, Merfolk, and Mono Black Pox/discard/atrocious matchup. 16 cantrips really shined against all that discard. Are you on ANT also?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I played this list:Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
Round 1 - Mirror (2-0) his build is worst, and I got more disruption + Grim Tutors
Round 2 - UWr Miracle/CBtop (0-2) can't break the lock, then Surgical on Abrupt Decay after nuking 2 CB's, then Canonist to lock me out permanently
Round 3 - UWb ThopterTop (1-2) Top + FoW are annoying to fight through
Round 4 - bye. :\
I could definitely see that being true, good point. Is it good enough to justify a slot just for those matchups though? I am genuinely asking, because I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
Also, what percentage of the Show and Tell metagame is Omni and what percentage is Sneak? Is it 50/50? I'm just curious what peoples' experiences are against S+T decks. Is Karakas good enough against them?
I played Prosak's 75, which for reference is
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Karakas
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island
I've 4-0'd the last 2 Legacy Dailies with his list, playing against bug twice, sneakshow twice, merfolk, reanimator, zoo, and pox. The deck feels very good, the extra cantrips help you play around discard by letting you float business on the top of your library more often and also make the deck operate very smoothly. The trade off is that you're about a turn slower protected, but that doesn't really matter against the decks you want protection against. The gemstone mines help splash both red and green, I was skeptical initially but they let you keep island+gemstone and cast your black spells unlike island+trop.
The sideboard isn't ideal, I think the 2 Slaughter Pact could become a second Karakas and a third Chain of Vapor. The Carpets are pretty sweet against BUG, they let you play around all of their soft permission and let you cast the business spells you topdeck. I've been boarding out lotus petals for them because the matchup is super attrition-y and a 1-mana boost isn't usually what you need to win the game.
I'm not sure either, but swarm is really good against U/W as well, it in conjunction with abrupt decay lets you stop the top floating force method they have of beating you and the counterbalance method they have of beating you. Its also good against reanimator, and for a tournament like a grand prix I would expect to get paired against Show and Tell and Merfolk several times which makes the sideboard slots worth it in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I've been boarding it in because you have discard to stop their initial combo, meaning that a topdecked show and tell is likely their way to win. Karakas stops that. I think sneak show is more popular because it's more resiliant to discard because both combos are 2-card, but I could be wrong. I'm absolutely not a Show and Tell player.
It's good enough vs them. If you can disrupt their hand and take out the Omniscience, they have to rely on fatties. If you sandbag the Karakas, then you can totally blow them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Thanks for the input. Have people actually tried Empty against a wide range of decks? It is pretty difficult to beat Deathrite Shaman with Past in Flames on the draw, and I am wondering if we need the Empty to steal games.
Hi guys n gals;
I'm interested in this deck - but I'm curious.
Seeing as a lot of lists here have no creature fodder, why is Cabal Therapy so prevelant in so many decklists?
Why not Thoughtsieze or Inq of K.?
CHeers.
Interacts favorably with Gitaxian Probe, Discard spells in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
I run Cabal Therapy in a couple other decks - I'm not convinced this is all there is to it.
I understand that Therapy is better than Duress & Inq., because it's not limited to certain cards.
But you can miss, even after a Probe - it's by no means a certain discard with cards like Brainstorm being so common.
Is the life-loss from Thoughtsieze the main reason Therapy is being run instead of Sieze?
mmmmm, sometimes you can't win with warrens, and in that situation, without the grim, burning wish is a dead draw (not always, but a lot)Quote:
Originally Posted by pingpong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
how have the 2nd tendrils and IGG been working out for you?
They have been "meh". I would bring in the 2nd Tendrils when I needed to grind against UB/x or CBtops; but it has been un-phenomenal. IGG similar reaction. I have since swapped the Tendrils for ETW, then decided that I would rather play TES (again...). They would be better served with more useful SB slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Sorry, but from my point of view it's one of the freaking best discard-spells you have with this kind of deck! Neither Seize nor Duress are able to take more than one card from opponents hand (therapy won couple of games for me against double Flusterstorm/Pierce/Force-Hands). If they respond with Brainstorm you simply have to check if the coast is clear, you don't have to hit with your therapy. Many players pointed out that the best way to play therapy is to imagine that single card at any given situation/timeframe which would be backbreaking for you....just name this card...you don't have to hit!Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Btw.: For me it's a common situation to grind out games with my UBr-Ant-Wish-List. Even a Late-Game EtW after an attrition-war with for example two flashbacked therapies is devastating for your opponents.
I love Cabal Therapy - and I agree it's one of the best discard spells out there too.:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
Thanks for explaining DarkJester
Oh, I just shared my experience with the card. But the explanation is not my train of thoughts, if I remember correctly this had been written by Richard Feldmann in his "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu"-Article.
I'm not sure at a large tournament like a GP or SCG or whatever, but online the Omnitell version is much more popular. In general, I think we have a pretty strong matchup against the plain Sneak & Show version, and a very close matchup against the Omnitell version. Omnitell is a little more likely to run more Lotus Petals/Sol Lands, so sometimes we don't have time to duress them before they go off. For what it's worth, I think in general the Omnitell version is also better positioned in the Metagame - most decks have some sort of plan to deal with Emrakul/Griselbrand in the main/sb, but Omniscience is much harder to deal with, and being able to win without attacking is a pretty huge advantage against the U/W decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Karakas isn't horrible against Omnitell, I tend to just board into a ton of discard and Karakas, and, unless they get the nut draw, you can just attrition them out. Karakas is very good against the Sneak version, as they don't usually have time to assemble Sneak + 2 red mana + Emrakul needed to kill us through it.
I'm considering maindecking an Empty the Warrens as it just seems so good against RUG and BUG decks. I'm on basically Timo's GP list, -1 Chrome Mox +1 Island. Any suggestions on what to cut from the main for it? Or tell me why it's a bad idea?
Also, how does this seem for a sideboard for GP Denver in a 3 BW list? Anything I'm obviously missing here?
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infest