Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Thorn of Amethyst anyone?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Thorn of Amethyst anyone?
Thalia is better ;)
Nothing will be banned up to the time where everyone agrees with it and that spell really gets a pain. So we will see. (and yes i also think decay is overpowered)Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
You also can say that our new one mana planeswalker (Deathrite Shaman) should be banned because he is too powerful. And this won't happen.
By the side: Thalia is better than Thorn!
I cannot stand the moaning concerning decay. Decay is just another removal spell like StP etc. Our whole deck consists of creatures and the not counterable part is not important for us. In most situations decay is a worse lightning bolt against us. So calm down.
Shaman is not a problem with RiP. Even if it gets decayed the GY must be filled again. With our good clock that is enough to win. Remember that a resolved relic was always good vs Canadian as it gave us time before they rebuild.
Shaman is a hype card that does not affect our gameplan if you play right.
Urgh... please.... before posting, think about the thing you are going to say a minute. Nothing more. Just a minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Have you ever tested vs any BUG-variant? I suppose no, when you say Decay is en par with Swords and Bolt, which is plain wrong. Decay is alot worse when it comes to killing your damn goblins. Because it costs 2. But hey, it does something else. You know what? Maybe go and read that card. Oh...it says nonland permanent..hmmm that sounds like it would hit Aether Vial? Oh damnit! BUG can Wasteland us and destroy our Aether Vial to take all our tempo or just hinder our development by just blowing that damn Vial. Hmm, didn't know that I can nuke a Vial with a Bolt/Swords...but I am open to suggestions.
I've been testing alot of different BUGvariants lately, and in testing Goblins with Perish proved to have an edge over me, whereas white ones with Seal of Cleansing and Thalia did not. That's how I feel about this - but I didnt intend to post just because of this - more like correcting the fact about Decay.
Greetings
Our deck consists only of 4 non creature spells (vial). So yes our Warchiefs and our Piledrivers will also be targeted by decay.
Against control or aggro control Decks my vials get countered or grudged all the time anytime. we have a faster clock even without vial. I can read the card and I did not find it harder to beat BUG Delver than Canadian.
Goblins can beat every fair deck and BUG is no expection. Just play tight.
We have mana denial, too and can slow them with RiP and heck even with Kinesis.
So we can disrupt them as good as they can do with us.
So the matchup is 50-50. The better player wins.
Two to three matches are not sufficient data to deem a match-up bad. BUG is the vogue deck right now and its been at least 18 months since that deck was played with any sort of regularity. Learning how to play against the deck will increase Goblins' win percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven
Deathrite Shaman is only "good" against Goblins because it can block Goblin Lackey on turn one and survive and trades with a significant portion of our deck. Yes, the abilities are annoying to varying degrees. However, out of all of the decks that plan win by turning dudes sideways, Goblins probably cares the least about the life gain given the amount of damage this deck can generate. The life lose ability is somewhat annoying, but it also directly trades off with potential Snapcaster Mage targets and cards to Delve into for Tombstalking making it somewhat dis-synergistic. This is why I don't think Rest in Peace is a reliable option to handle Deathrite Shaman. Its not that Rest in Peace can't shut down Deathrite Shaman, its more that I don't care about the abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven
Regarding Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, both cards are just as annoying as Knight of the Reliquary was in the Maverick match-up. Granted Tombstalker can fly, but so what? I would recommend moving back to 3-4 Stingscourger in the maindeck. Bouncing Tombstalker is a fairly reliable way to deal with it for several turns. If they choose to recast it, then BUG is also exiling Deathrite Shaman and Snapcaster Mage targets and likely shrinking Tarmogoyf. Regarding Tarmogoyf, Goblins has beat up on decks that rely on it for years, no reason why that's changing. I think Relic of Progenitus does enough of a pseudo Rest in Peace impression to get us where we want to be in terms of graveyard hate.
I'll grant that Thalia is a rather powerful card and could have a home in Goblins if that's a player's preference. However imho, I opt to avoid Thalia in my builds because:
1. It makes reveals from Goblin Ringleader worse
2. Goblin Matron can't tutor for it. This means you're forced to run 3-4 main deck which directly trades off with other Goblins.
3. Goblin Piledriver doesn't get a bonus from an attacking Thalia
4. Doesn't interact with Krenko, Mob Boss's ability
5. Can't be shot at an opponent or creature using Siege-Gang Commander
6. Doesn't add to damage when cycling Gempalm Incinerator (making it harder to kill cards like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker which are apparently problem cards for Goblins).
7. Thalia is Legendary so it becomes redundant when drawing multiples. Even if the logic is holding multiples is good because it you can cast another copy it after they kill it, against the BUG match-up Hymn to Tourach removes extra copies of Thalia rather quickly.
8. Thalia has a diminishing value associated with it. As the game goes later, Thalia's impact is diminished (because they have more land). Casting a second copy of Thalia it doesn't impact the board as significantly as the first. However, the other two drops in the deck such as cycling Gempalm Incinerator or bouncing a creature with Stingscourger are relevant abilities that only increase in utility as the game goes on. Thalia is a worse top deck as the game goes on because she doesn't significantly alter the board state.
9. Thalia appears to be a a "win more" card in this deck. Between Rishadan Port and Wasteland, Goblins can already generate a pseudo Thalia effect already. Is Thalia awesome? Yes. Does Thalia solve problems for this deck that would make Goblins unplayable otherwise? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to answer no. I don't see a critical mass of spells that are forcing Goblins into the realm of unplayable. Nor do I see Thalia solving this problem. Even if Thalia provides some benefit (which I would grant), the aforementioned reasons seem to suggest that the benefit of running Thalia directly trades off with synergy of the deck. At best, this makes the benefit of running Thalia diminished by the decrease in synergy. At worst, it means the deck becomes worse because it looses synergy which is a critical component of Goblin's success. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle meaning if the pilot is willing to trade off synergy for a maindeck sphere effect, then its probably a matter of preference.
10. Relevant to the BUG match-up: Thalia's sphere effect is diminished in its impact because of the mana ability on Deathrite Shaman.
Finally someone who is somehow my opinion. I congratulate you Fossil4182.
While I think that RiP is better than Relic but otherwise I agree 100%. Good post. listen to him if you do not want to listen to me ;)
I'm not saying that decay is devastating for goblin, i only think it is too powerful in legacy. It is a catch-all removal spell that can save sideboard space otherwise dedicated to artifact/enchantment hate. moreover,it is uncounterable. Just suppose that we have a red abrupt decay: we could probably eliminate from our deck cards like tuktuk scrapper, tin street hooligan, gempalm incinerators/tarfires and krosan grip or other enchantment hate from sideboard because we have a removal for everything. i don't like playing non-goblin cards main deck, but if abrupt decay was red i think i would have played it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Still, it is powerful also against goblins because it destroys vial and the cards we side in ( and a lot of our creatures... but in this case yes, it is only a bad sword to plowshares).
Aniway the bug matchup is surely winnable... i played against two bug my last tournament , once i won and once i lost.
I agree with you on some points, but I also feel you are underestimating the positive sides of her. If you look at how death and taxes wins, it is by pecking life while denying the opponent to use any mana. If goblins use port and wasteland, we can actually do the same thing while vial puts goblins into play. BUG is a deck that relies on few lands in play and if you are forcing them to drop more lands ´they must be putting something else on top from brainstorm/ponder (like creatures).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
Does this make Thalia worth the white splash and 3-4 slots? I'm not sure, but I feel it is worth looking at what she brings to the deck.
One thing i forgot to mention is, that the shaman totally dodges our Mana denial plan, if he isn't removed. The Vial--> port/waste/thalia draw does just nothing, if he has 2-3 lands, a shaman and a decay in his first 9-10 cards.
I granted that Thalia has a strong upside. My argument was adding Thalia to the deck may add something (a Sphere effect on an efficient attacker), but also decreases the overall synergy of the deck. The result is probably a net push in terms of the over competitiveness of the deck (though I'm inclined to believe its makes Goblins less competitive).Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
For example, pick a traditional Goblins deck: mono red, green splash, or black splash. All things being equal, for the purposes of this thought experiment let's assume all of those decks have a overall effectiveness at a 8/10. Constructing a white splash of the deck for Thalia maindeck and Rest in Peace in the board would still make the deck only an 8/10 in terms of effectiveness. Are there certain match-ups and/or metagames in which having a white splash would be more beneficial over other builds? Sure. However, there are other such match-ups and/or metagames where having a white splash makes the deck less competitive. Even excluding the points about why Thalia decreases the synergy of the deck, I don't understand two questions concerning the justifications for Thalia:
1. What are the problematic non-creature spells that are making Goblins unplayable?
2. How does running Thalia solve the aforementioned problematic spells?
As an preemptive answer to #2, I get that Thalia adds a sphere effect which slows down an opponent's ability to cast a spell for a turn. However, given the decrease in synergy within the deck, I'm not convinced Goblins can effectively capitalize on said turn (see below in the UW miracles analysis).
Thalia does make the deck's mana denial more effective by adding a sphere effect. However, Death and Taxes will always be vastly superior in deploying a mana denial strategy for two reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
-Mangara of the Corondo allows the Death and Taxes player to start exiling lands as early as turn four and continue to do it repeatedly.
-Weathered Wayfarer means D&T can tutor Wasteland
Death and Taxes is also rather poorly positioned in the metagame right now given its low popularity and lack of top eight finishes. Even if Death and Taxes is good at what you claim it does (which I agree with), the data from various top eights suggests its not a competitive metagame choice. More to the point, if Goblins and Death and Taxes are comparable in their strategies and Goblins is competitive, then my counterargument would be contrasting Goblins to Death & Taxes reveals that the synergy of Goblins seems to be the major difference maker between the two decks. If that's the case, then maximizing that difference should be a-priori because it is what is making the deck competitive.
Goblins already gets a pseudo Thalia effect by using Port. I do not see why going more toward the mana denial strategy is likely to increase the competitiveness of the deck. Especially when the move comes at the cost of the synergy of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
BUG is different than RUG when it comes to how many lands they want in play. RUG plays between 18 - 19 lands while BUG lists are running between 20 - 23 land and they want to have more land in play. Much like Port, Thalia has a diminishing effectiveness as the game goes on against decks like BUG and control. This occurs because those decks have a higher land count and want the game to go later. Goblins has issues with BUG not because of Abrupt Decay or Hymn to Tourach, but because of the creatures: Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Delver of Secrets, and Tombstalker. Rest in Peace is probably the best Graveyard based route to attack these creatures, but its reactionary and only a delay. Relic, while not as overwhelming as Rest in Peace, is still comparable and isn't strictly worse than Rest in Peace. More to the point of Thalia, I don't understand what Thalia is doing in this match-up to help us beat the cards that are difficult for Goblins to deal with. If one wanted to really disrupt the BUG player's mana, play Blood Moon. You would have to wait for them to tap out or use Port / Wasteland to make sure they couldn't float mana to cast Abrupt Decay. However, resolving Blood Moon means they cannot cast spells the rest of the game.
Even with a deck like UW miracles where spells rain supreme, Thalia isn't doing a lot for us. Terminus is the real problem and making it cost two instead of one isn't really significant (because costing two mana on turn four - six really doesn't mean anything). Even combined with Port, the earliest we could hope to combine Thalia with Port to deny them an early Terminus would be when we're on the play and it is turn three. That still doesn't help us because we're not going to deny them Terminus on turn three and win on turn four. The reason being that Goblins' early wins come on the back of Goblin Piledriver which Thalia makes worse in terms of the bonuses and it trades off with it as our two drop. The UW match-up will either be over early thanks to Piledriver or it will go late in which getting good reveals from Goblin Ringleader is key. Thalia hampers Goblins in both these game plans.
Let me try tackling some of your concerns about running Thalia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
It isn't that non-creature spells are making the Goblins unplayable. Thalia isn't a card that's meant to hose certain spells. It isn't meant to make Moat or Jace too expensive to cast. Thalia is just there to slow them down, take their efficient spells and make them cost 1 more, thereby decreasing the efficency of their entire deck. Make Brainstorm cost U1. U player now needs to crack that fetchland Before they can even cast BS. Make Abrupt Decay cost 3 and its suddenly a worse Maelstrom Pulse.
Death and Taxes is just not the same deck as Goblins. D&T doesn't have a T3 kill, or even a T4 kill. It is a slow, grindy, control deck, so they're not really comprable. Port is not a Thalia land. Port can only really be used to keep them off a color, and by activating Port you're eating up your own manabase. Thalia allows you to slow your opponent's rate of play without impeding your own ability to cast spells, like Port does. So the role of Thalia is to slow down your opponent while allowing you to outpace them by playing faster and more creatures.
I'm not saying Thalia makes every MU better, but it does make bad MUs much better, namely combo.
As far as your concern that Thalia adds dissynergy, well, you're still running 31 Goblins in a 22 land, 4 Vial, 3 Thalia build. So you're not exactly screwing over your own interactions.
There's another upside to running Thalia that I haven't touched on yet but want to bring up even though it doesn't really apply to what you were posting, but here goes. Legacy is a super fast format and it will only be getting faster. The fastest Goblins has ever been is a 3 turn kill, but we're really a T4 kill deck. Thalia's effect brings our opponents down to our speed. We don't use Thalia to control our opponent, we use Thalia to make our opponent play on our terms. We get to keep casting creature spells at face value, they need to cast more expensive removal spells to deal with them. Our CA is based around being able to draw more bodies than any other deck in the format, their CA based off of running the most efficient spells and effect they can. When they lose their efficiency we win through sheer volume.
As far as MUs go, Thalia isn't great in all of them. I side her out against Miracles because they don't care if Terminus costs 2. I side her out against RUG Delver because they can deal with her or just play around her and I'd really rather have RiP anyway. Against BUG her efficiency is still up in the air. There a BUG builds she can really shine against, then there are BUG builds where she's not going to matter and you'll just want a RiP or KGrips.
Either way, i've been enjoying playing with 3 Thalia MD. She's pretty easy to side out in matches where she does nothing and she's pretty easy to leave in you know she'll be handy. It's great that she's a 2-drop because that gives you the option of playing her or MWM depending on what MU you drew and how the game is playing out. You're on the draw and they're establishing a board presence? Play MWM. Their board presence is weak and you're on the play? Play Thalia. She gives you options that Piledriver doesn't.
Agree 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I'm not attempting to diminish the ability of Thalia nor call Port a Thalia land, but the point is that both do comparable things: their tactical role is to place a strain on an opponent's mana base. While its an important tactic for Goblins, I don't know why adding mana disruption 9-11(or 12) is needed. Between Wasteland and Port, there is already a significant portion of the deck that is dedicated to mana denial. More mana denial seems to needlessly over emphasize that tactic with a diminishing return.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Your warrants and examples of why Thalia are good and sound. However, I don't care if Brainstorm, Jace, or Moat cost one more mana. While Goblins can gold fish on turn three and is rather reliable on turn four and five, I don't understand mathematically how Thalia makes our clock better. If we're going to lose on turn four because they resolve a Moat or they're going to cast Supreme Verdict or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, how does delaying that a turn help us? The difficulty I'm having with the analysis is that I don't understand how casting Thalia early pushes the the fundamental turn of the blue decks without adding an additional one turn to when our fundamental turn should be. Thalia doesn't have Haste (and can't be granted haste), cannot be shot over the top with Siege-Gang Commander, and does not add an attack bonus to Goblin Pile Driver. So even if I drop Thalia on turns 2-4 which forces the blue decks to push their fundamental turn back one, we're essential trading potential damage to push the game later which would seem to favor the blue decks anyway. The decrease in damage means Goblins is winning slower. So even if Legacy is becoming a faster format, attempting to slow it down other decks doesn't all Goblins to capitalize on the extra turn or time we gain.
The odds of drawing her are not great but that's double edged in the sense that it also means Goblins can't reliable find and/or utilize Thalia. My other concern is she's a rather weak top deck in the mid to late game. I would rather draw something like Stingscouger or even War Marshall.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I think this whole discussion of Thalia is rather interesting and productive. Its nice to get a cogent response to engage.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Splashes are at their core, a matter of preference. If the metagame was saturated with combo decks, then I would be sleeving up four Thalia. I don't see the metagame shifting that way so I'm included to go with Gempalm, War Marshall and Stingscourger and Relic out of the board.
I had once this crazy idea which I want to share with you. Have you ever consider playing Chameleon Colossus?
Pros:
+ it is goblin,
+ pro black (very relevant in bug heavy meta – can’t be decayed and can’t be block by black creatures - Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Tombstalker),
+ big body (can be even beyond 8/8 with lord pump)
Cons:
- GG in the casting cost,
- Thoughtseize,
- Pernicious Deed and Damnation,
- sacrifice effects: Innocent Blood, Liliana of the Veil.
I'd rather play Boartusk Liege. It's immune to Decay and and very resilient vs. Engineered Plague and Darkblast. If you're having trouble with BUG I'd pack a pair in your sideboard.
Hi guys, I'm a fairly new MtG player. Currently I'm playing a Thalia Goblins with 22 lands; I've recently finished the paper deck because i had started buying the cards years ago, when i played for fun. I'm testing the deck on Cockatrice, and I feel like it isn't as strong as it used to be. I remember when I used to own random people on Magic Workstation, years ago. Since I know I'm a bad player, I think the reason is simply that Goblin isn't an auto-pilot deck anymore; at the same time i feel like I have no answers to the other decks, while they can interact with my creatures as much as they want. What do you guys think? Is Goblins still a tier 1 deck? Currently I'm being stomped by these decks (I don't know the real names): Stoneforge Mystic+equipments (looks like EVERYBODY is playing the deck with Stoneforge Mystic on Cockatrice); Tarmogoyf+Dark Confidant+Deathrite Shaman; Tendrils; Show and Tell; Lands.
So, should i just learn to make the right choices and use the sideboard correctly or are Goblins just behind these decks??
Read through the last few pages of the thread! Judging by your post, I'd say you haven't even read this page of the thread yet.
Goblins is still tier 1 (which is why it's in Decks To Beat). The recent pages discuss the BUG matchup and whether or not Thalia is worth it.
Ok, I'll focus on improving my game then! Thanks for the answerQuote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Abrupt Decay definitely isn't the problem card for Goblins. If Goblins is on the play, BUG seems to have a lot of trouble. On the draw, Goblins can get behind really easily with Goyfwalls and Hymns.