Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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I am not going to go into too much detail, or why I feel you have a few misconceptions about this particular match, because the biggest problem here is that most Landstill players simply cannot give up the concept of a traditional Landstill deck. They will play it regardless of whether it is right or wrong to play it, and then make up excuses to justify this. And until people acknowledge this, there is little point arguing specifics.
QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.
It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.
It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.
I lol'd. You can't just stereotype an archtype of players and say they don't know how to reinvent the wheel. Just because your not content with Landstill's redundant meta game style shell doesn't mean that other people face the same problems. In fact what generally happens here is some new guy comes in and asks questions in the middle of a heated discussion, and because we are all so super sweet we detract from the conversation instead of just telling him to read the thread.
Just for referance this is Hanni's UBw counter top walker deck
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U/W/b WalkerTop
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
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// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
TE]People with that idea apparently don't understand that Mishra's Factory in fact IS a creature upon activation, and therefore the opponent's Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts ARE relevant creature removal. Just sayin. [/QUOTE]
I lol'd again, Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."
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Jace TMS is retardedly good, and those who think otherwise are only fooling themselves, Cid. No point in trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced.
Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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You can't just stereotype an archtype of players and say they don't know how to reinvent the wheel.
Why can't I? I see buttloads of discussion going on in this thread about classical versions of Landstill, with very little to no discussion elsewhere.
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Just because your not content with Landstill's redundant meta game style shell doesn't mean that other people face the same problems. In fact what generally happens here is some new guy comes in and asks questions in the middle of a heated discussion, and because we are all so super sweet we detract from the conversation instead of just telling him to read the thread.
It has nothing to do with not being content. The metagame is constantly changing, getting faster and more powerful with every new set they release. Yet, for some reason, Landstill looks almost exactly the same as it did 4 years ago.
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Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."
How does that have anything to do with my response to the discussion? Someone said that they like how they render their opponent's creature removal dead by not running creatures, giving them virtual card advantage, but they run Mishra's Factory. It doesn't matter whether or not you can deny the opponent said removal spell or not. I wasn't talking about the effectiveness of Mishra's Factory, I think you misunderstood my point.
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Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
I've answered the question of how powerful Jace is numerous times. In fact, I've answered tons of questions that you've asked numerous times, and I just don't see the point in trying to convince you of anything anymore.
Still want an answer? Jace wins games. Just how Elspeth has the ability to come down and seal a game up, Jace does the same thing. If you look at him as a slow Fact or Fiction, you're looking at him wrong. If you need to draw cards, Jace can do that. If you have a Counterspell in hand but no creature removal and need to get that menacing Tombstalker off the board, Jace can do that. If you're currently in control of the gamestate (the board is clear) and you need to drop a wincon/win the game, Jace can do that.
Jace becomes alot more poweful with CounterTop too, since you can fateseal away anything that CounterTop can't answer. Then again, you have your million reasons why Counterbalance, the premier control spell in the format, sucks in control decks.
Anyway, to cut a short discussion short, keep playing old school Landstill. If it wins you games, that's great. I like to pop in this thread from time to time and toss around my opinions for those that may value them. You don't have to agree with anything I say, and you can rebuttle me until your face turns blue if you'd like. I'll still love you, Mossivo.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
I find this rather amusing given your current sig.
I think this is a poor question, and I think a lot of people say this all the time. "What matchup does this card improve." With Jace? How about every match? But people will ask this question with every deck and every card on these forums. It's almost like people believe
X cards for aggro
Y cards for combo
Z cards for control
and voila! I can't lose to any of them! But whatever happened to simply playing a strategy that is inherently better than my opponent's strategy, and beating him that way?
But this is beside the point anyway. The question isn't what does Jace do for Landstill. The question is why am I not playing Jace in my blue control deck. This card is revolutionary, and blue decks should be built around Jace because it's just that good.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.
It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.
People innovate, but most innovation is full of fail. I for one agree that Counterbalance is probably the most viable control element in Legacy, but finding the proper "overall" strategy to fit it varies, depending on what you are trying to achieve. I've gone through a million different blue control decks featuring CB, Intuition, Gifts, Thopter Foundry, PW's, etc., and found maybe 4-5 rough lists that were worth pursuing.
On trying something new: Duh. Mankind isn't a fan of change, and he sticks with what works (or at least what he perceives works). Legacy players are still human.
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
I lol'd again, Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."
...
Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
I also never find myself activating Factory unless 1) shit is going south, and I need a blocker or 2) I want to win in 10 turns, because you obivously failed.
I think Rico Suave's answer above me answers the Jace statement perfectly. It's not that he shores up matchups, it's that he's The Goddamn Mindsculptor. He's so good, he's worth running, regardless of gameplan if you play control and play blue. His versatility and his ability to win the game in 6 turns while providing disruption is nothing short of amazing. Brainstorm doesn't shore up any bad matchups, but it's so fucking good that I'll run 4 in every blue deck possible. The same philosophy applies to Jace, albeit in smaller numbers.
BUT, I usually side him out against anything playing red, and against Merfolk. At the end of the day, he's 4 mana, and a blue card, who dies to Red Blasts, Bolts, and can be really hard to resolve against mana-denial. Though I suppose the same could be said about other 4 mana bombs that we run, he's probably best as a 2-of, with support from Elspeth and Moat/Humility/WoG/Firespout.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
I don't really care to argue about something that menotinous either. I can't deny that it does end up in some of my lists as well, and probobly will continue to do so.
I am currently working on a very strong toolbox list that I have selected a jace and a fof as singletons, and I think this will really be the deciding factor. My idea landstill is a nassif 1-1-1 build with so much utility that your always drawing well or brainstorming sub par cards out, and then siding them out post board.
My main concern with Jace is that the matchups I really want her in are matchups that i'm already god damn rediculously favored in. This doesn't warrent playing her. In the control matchup where I probobly am second most likely to play her, I think elspeth is just that much stronger. The same really goes for top-fact or fiction argument. While I LOVE top, I find that I can never squeeze it in comfortably.
Clearly we all have strong opinions. I am not saying i'm right or wrong; but one of the elements of playing legacy for a long time is that you inherit a keen sense on how redundancy is soo much more important with large tournaments and such. This is where I think that classic Landstill list that everyone talks about really is stronger. In smaller tourneys clearly you can get away with murder. And I love it. Anyways I'll see you on Team Bad Guys Mana drain.
-Love MoSs-
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
I don't really care to argue about something that menotinous either. I can't deny that it does end up in some of my lists as well, and probobly will continue to do so.
I am currently working on a very strong toolbox list that I have selected a jace and a fof as singletons, and I think this will really be the deciding factor. My idea landstill is a nassif 1-1-1 build with so much utility that your always drawing well or brainstorming sub par cards out, and then siding them out post board.
I'd really like to see your toolbox set-up, and how do you plan to get different things at the right time. Fore example an Englightened T. toolbox is pretty simple, but I fail to see how could you set up a toolbox wich includes different singletons such as a planeswalker, artifacts ( at least Crucible comes to mind) and sorceries/ istants (Wog and Fof).
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
My main concern with Jace is that the matchups I really want her in are matchups that i'm already god damn rediculously favored in. This doesn't warrent playing her. In the control matchup where I probobly am second most likely to play her, I think elspeth is just that much stronger. The same really goes for top-fact or fiction argument. While I LOVE top, I find that I can never squeeze it in comfortably.
I realized that Jace is too strong to have it out even in unfavored MU. For example AggroLoam is an unfavored MU, and I still want to see him in lategame. Merfolk is a though one if you don't pack Firespout and I still want to see him. Surely Elspeth is that much stronger, but Elspeth doesn't protect herself and you by hiding the best cards/ answer your opponent will topdeck.So I still play him on a 2x regular basis. I agree with you regarding Top. As much as everyone like saying that you can't play Legacy control without playing Countertop, I feel that it doesn't fit UWx.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
kiblast
I'd really like to see your toolbox set-up, and how do you plan to get different things at the right time. Fore example an Englightened T. toolbox is pretty simple, but I fail to see how could you set up a toolbox wich includes different singletons such as a planeswalker, artifacts ( at least Crucible comes to mind) and sorceries/ istants (Wog and Fof).
I realized that Jace is too strong to have it out even in unfavored MU. For example AggroLoam is an unfavored MU, and I still want to see him in lategame. Merfolk is a though one if you don't pack Firespout and I still want to see him. Surely Elspeth is that much stronger, but Elspeth doesn't protect herself and you by hiding the best cards/ answer your opponent will topdeck.So I still play him on a 2x regular basis. I agree with you regarding Top. As much as everyone like saying that you can't play Legacy control without playing Countertop, I feel that it doesn't fit UWx.
I may give it up, but not just yet. I'm going to be doing some testing with it first.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Ok, now i'm testing 2 Fof, and I have to say that in UWx (I play UWb) they can be really, really beastly. Sometimes they just pitch to Will instead . With 24 lands i rarely miss the 4th landdrop, but I hate to see 4cc's sitting unused in my hand. So i was thinking if UWb could play Esper Charm instead of Fof. Esper is particularly interesting for its first ability, for example to have an O-Ringed Jace back on the battlefield. Even the instant discard effect could be interesting in some situation. I think we should give it a try.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Hey all, just thought I'd share that I won another local tourney with my UWR-scepterstill (knappstill).
I'll exclude my list to save time, but I'm sure you can jump back a few pages and find it. So here's a mini report.
R1 U/G Natural Order
Game 1 I land a scepter and a chant in the face of Progenitus and some irrelevent creatures and he concedes.
Game 2 I stick a turn 4 Peacekeeper, and since he wasn't playing white, I figured he had no removal, so I let him get Progenitus and an army of shitters before I cast Jace TMS and kill him.
R2 Mono U Merfolk
Game 1He turn 1 drops vial, then standstill and lords me out.
Game 2 He has the same start, but I throw a Peacekeeper out on turn 4 with Island and Plains in play and he concedes.
Game 3 I end up losing through no fault of my opponents, but the cards weren't in it for me this game.
R3 I get paired against my friend who I had built the same 75 for, we're both 1-1 so we decide to play it out. I win in a quick 2 games with much more experience w the deck and the mirror.
R4 Zoo
Game 1 I deal with his rush of early dudes and land crucible + waste to take his red sources away before I get burned out, and Mishra's Factories do the clean up.
Game 2 I kept a hand with EE, 2STP, BEB, and lands. Needless to say I won.
R5 I'd with Natural Order Elves Survival
Top 8
I get paired against the doofus merfolk player from before, but he has other obligations and leaves. How nice?
Semifinals
I get paired against my friend from round 3 who managed to squeak in the top 8 at X-2. He just concedes this time lol. This top 8 is seeming to go pretty well.
Finals
My opponent asks me to split, but I've never gotten anywhere in life pussyfooting around and letting people have prizes they didn't deserve, so I decline. He's playing Canadian Thresh. He has no early action other than a Tarmogoyf around turn 6ish which gets STP. We just play draw go until I have enough mana to cast Orim's Chant, JaceTMS, Elspeth Knight-Errant, and kick them both up to 5 before passing the turn. He scooped soon after.
Game 2 He again kept a hand with no pressure at all, so I was free to sit back and play lands until I wanted to do something. I took some Trygon Predator beats eventually, held him under scepter-chant for a few turns, then landed a Jace and killed him.
I took home 4 minty FOW for my trouble. Happy new year's to everybody!
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
kiblast
So i was thinking if UWb could play Esper Charm instead of Fof. Esper is particularly interesting for its first ability, for example to have an O-Ringed Jace back on the battlefield. Even the instant discard effect could be interesting in some situation. I think we should give it a try.
I dig this idea. 3 mana instant speed card draw, possible instant speed hand dump, and a 3cc CB removal spell. Although I can't think of many enchantments that see play now to remove. Sylvan Library, Choke, O-ring(?), and that's all I got. But still, 3 mana card advantage at instant speed could be could. Just a damn shame, the mana requirements...
EDIT: Working on a possible list with the charm...
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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but one of the elements of playing legacy for a long time is that you inherit a keen sense on how redundancy is soo much more important with large tournaments and such.
You can have redundancy without the classic shell, though.
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I dig this idea. 3 mana instant speed card draw, possible instant speed hand dump, and a 3cc CB removal spell. Although I can't think of many enchantments that see play now to remove. Sylvan Library, Choke, O-ring(?), and that's all I got. But still, 3 mana card advantage at instant speed could be could. Just a damn shame, the mana requirements...
I like Esper Charm, I've seen it used to good effect. It's a bit restrictive in cost though.
For those running Top, seriously consider Predict. It costs 2 mana, instant speed, and is a virtual draw 3.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Regarding Esper Charm: I don't think that it can fit into the place of FoF, as it doesn't dig deep enought, compared to Fof, plus the mana required to cast this aren't ideal (do you really want either Scrubland or USea on the field by turn 3 /5 ?). As for the flexibility; do we really need more ways to beat one of our best mu's?
As for Landstill in general I believe that this year looks promising to us, the meta looks very friendly towards big fat 4cc bombs.
This will be the list I'm going to play , at least for the next months:
4 Tundra
1 Glacier Fortress
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
1 Humility
1 Enlighted Tutor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
Side:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormnonds Crypt
2 Vindicate
2 Negate
3 Hydroblast
2 Peacekeeper / Preacher
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
You can have redundancy without the classic shell, though.
I like Esper Charm, I've seen it used to good effect. It's a bit restrictive in cost though.
For those running Top, seriously consider Predict. It costs 2 mana, instant speed, and is a virtual draw 3.
Esper Charm won't cut it in a meta of Wastelands. I doubt you will hit UWB consistently on turn 3. If you want to draw spells past turn 3, then FoF is INFINITELYbetter. (dig 2 for UWB or dig 5 for 3U??). The disenchanting effect is decent, and the discard rarely useful (aka win-more scenarios).
And as good as Top + Predict it, people always fail to realize that Top + Standstill is even better (digs far more with less mana). Top before Standstill strengthes Standstill. The issue becomes the debate whether Standstill > Predict, but to not digress from the thread, the answer is yes because we are in the Landstill thread and whether you agree/disagree if Standstill is a good draw engine, that's for a topic in another thread.
Chii was the list the same list as your GenCon list with Faerie Conclaves? I've been picking up UWr Scepterstill over UWb now that the Vengevival craze has died down. I'm trying to tweak a list with 20 blue counts to support FoW while running Helix over Fire//Ice. Fire//Ice despite being a beast on Scepter, isn't doing much for me. Helix has been promising since it takes out 3/3s (i.e. Zoo and Lord'd Folks). This is highly critical for me. When I used Fire//Ice, I was usually using it as a burn in most situations (situations where I Ice'd I'm either winning more or hopelessly losing). Helix ensures that I keep the board under control since Bolt-damage takes out quite a lot of relevant target where Fire//Ice could not. Finally, Helix gives me more stability, 3 life point is quite critical, and if you stick it on a scepter, it's as overpowered as a Fire//Ice (kills faster and puts yuor life total to a very safe zone where you can start ignoring most things).
Anyway, I'm still tweaking the ratios of blue:non-blue and the removal/counter/draw slots for this build. Recently I've been thinking for the non-sweeping approaches of Landstill, you really need every card to maximize its effect, to me, Helix being able to bolt for 3 and gain 3 life has more value than Fire//Ice which either wins-more or does nothing if you're losing to Goyf/Knights. I could be wrong, but that's what I felt with Fire//Ice from testing. It definitely didn't clunk up FoW which Helix is currently doing...
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Esper Charm won't cut it in a meta of Wastelands. I doubt you will hit UWB consistently on turn 3. If you want to draw spells past turn 3, then FoF is INFINITELYbetter. (dig 2 for UWB or dig 5 for 3U??). The disenchanting effect is decent, and the discard rarely useful (aka win-more scenarios).
After thinking about the mana requirements, I have to agree with this. Nailing CB is cool, but not cool enough to justify UWB.
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And as good as Top + Predict it, people always fail to realize that Top + Standstill is even better (digs far more with less mana). Top before Standstill strengthes Standstill. The issue becomes the debate whether Standstill > Predict, but to not digress from the thread, the answer is yes because we are in the Landstill thread and whether you agree/disagree if Standstill is a good draw engine, that's for a topic in another thread.
I don't think Hanni is talking about removing Standstill. Really, it's pretty hard to argue against Standstill as being the best draw engine in blue control (sans Jace of course, but he's not reliable as a draw engine). Using 2-3 Predict in addition to your draw lineup while running 3+ Tops is reasonable. Card advantage is card advantage, and Landstill doesn't run any engine cards (like Intuition> recursion type of plays). Plus, 2 mana for situational card advantage is still 2 mana for card advantage. The situations when Predict is good are quite common.
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Chii was the list the same list as your GenCon list with Faerie Conclaves? I've been picking up UWr Scepterstill over UWb now that the Vengevival craze has died down. I'm trying to tweak a list with 20 blue counts to support FoW while running Helix over Fire//Ice. Fire//Ice despite being a beast on Scepter, isn't doing much for me. Helix has been promising since it takes out 3/3s (i.e. Zoo and Lord'd Folks). This is highly critical for me. When I used Fire//Ice, I was usually using it as a burn in most situations (situations where I Ice'd I'm either winning more or hopelessly losing). Helix ensures that I keep the board under control since Bolt-damage takes out quite a lot of relevant target where Fire//Ice could not. Finally, Helix gives me more stability, 3 life point is quite critical, and if you stick it on a scepter, it's as overpowered as a Fire//Ice (kills faster and puts yuor life total to a very safe zone where you can start ignoring most things).
I'd be lying if I said I knew anything about Scepter combo's, but wouldn't Lightning Bolt work just as effectively, for R instead of RW? Against Wasteland, this is highly relevant. Is 3 life really worth the extra mana? On a Scepter Helix is obviously superior, but as a stand-alone card, Bolt looks to get the job done just fine. Also great against T1 Birds/Hierarch/Lackey/Nacatl. Just an idea.
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Anyway, I'm still tweaking the ratios of blue:non-blue and the removal/counter/draw slots for this build. Recently I've been thinking for the non-sweeping approaches of Landstill, you really need every card to maximize its effect, to me, Helix being able to bolt for 3 and gain 3 life has more value than Fire//Ice which either wins-more or does nothing if you're losing to Goyf/Knights. I could be wrong, but that's what I felt with Fire//Ice from testing. It definitely didn't clunk up FoW which Helix is currently doing...
Extra Paths? I agree that KotR, Goyf, War Monk, and other fat men are much more threatening than things that Bolt/Helix can solve (sans Lackey/Nacatl). Path is way better in the mid-range matchup also, which is a weak point of Landstill (like The Rock, and Bant).
It doesn't stop the blue-count problem, but no blue card is ever going to substitute for effective spot removal. For what it's worth, I don't run any Wastelands in Landstill, so Path is always a top choice for me.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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I don't think Hanni is talking about removing Standstill.
In this deck? No. I meant that before I started looking into Esper Charm, I'd be looking into Predict (for the builds with Top).
However, I'm still of the viewpoint that Landstill is a dying breed. Playing blue based control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong, and once you start building the deck around CounterTop, Standstill + Factory is no longer good enough. My control deck was originally a Landstill deck and eventually evolved away from it.
Running Factory itself forces the deck into a weaker and less stable manabase (since the Factories alone are 4 nonbasic colorless sources, not counting any extra chaff like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, etc). One of the most important aspects of a strong control deck is a stable manabase; being unable to cast bombs like Elspeth because of manabase problems is /fail.
Secondly, Standstill requires that the opponent has no pressure on the board, making Standstill a liability; it does nothing for you when you actually need it (when you're behind).
In classic Landstill, Standstill + Factory is fine, because the deck is focused around that interaction. In a CounterTop control deck, Predict becomes a superior draw engine.
Unfortunately, I seem to be only one of few that feel that way about control in the current format, but maybe that's why control has been a dying breed for some time. I think once people start to trend away from Landstill and more towards CounterTop based control decks, control will start doing a little better in the format. CounterTop control is just positioned much better. Don't get me wrong, Supreme Blue with 4 Goyf and 2 Clique has done consistently well, and it is also a CounterTop control deck, but I'm of the opinion that Elspeth/Jace and no creatures is the better route for control.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
While I agree that Standstill has major problems, we also have to live in the real world and realize that CB has major problems too, and both of the problems are infact similar (Vial decks, for one).
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However, I'm still of the viewpoint that Landstill is a dying breed. Playing blue based control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong, and once you start building the deck around CounterTop, Standstill + Factory is no longer good enough. My control deck was originally a Landstill deck and eventually evolved away from it.
I think I've addressed this before, but again, playing CounterTop to maximum effectiveness requires building your entire curve around it.This is fine and dandy if you intend to be swinging with low-cost, efficient dudes, under the protection of CB. But trying to kill a swarm of goblins or fish requires cards on the upper end of the curve. In addition, the most powerful creature control cards with a lasting impact on the game available to control players are at 3-4 mana. I'm not saying that it's impossible to build a viable heavy control build with CB (trust me, it's not), but it does force the CB deck to make significant concessions to the curve.
Besides all of the above, I'm going to repeat that Standstill and CB both have the same problems: Fast draws and Vial decks that make both enchantments irrelevant. Control needs to find a way stop early game assualts, while still maintaining a solid, reliable lategame strategy that doesn't fold to pressure on the board (Standstill and CB both suck in this situation).
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Running Factory itself forces the deck into a weaker and less stable manabase (since the Factories alone are 4 nonbasic colorless sources, not counting any extra chaff like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, etc). One of the most important aspects of a strong control deck is a stable manabase; being unable to cast bombs like Elspeth because of manabase problems is /fail.
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, if you run Standstill, you either run Manlands or Vial. Since we're Landstill, we run manlands.
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Secondly, Standstill requires that the opponent has no pressure on the board, making Standstill a liability; it does nothing for you when you actually need it (when you're behind).
This fact is undeniable. The idea of the deck is to never let your opponent get too far ahead without having a reset plan, and then drop a Standstill when the coast is clear and win. Sometimes this plan fails or is voided (Vial). When this happens, we tend to lose. It comes with playing the deck.
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Unfortunately, I seem to be only one of few that feel that way about control in the current format, but maybe that's why control has been a dying breed for some time. I think once people start to trend away from Landstill and more towards CounterTop based control decks, control will start doing a little better in the format. CounterTop control is just positioned much better. Don't get me wrong, Supreme Blue with 4 Goyf and 2 Clique has done consistently well, and it is also a CounterTop control deck, but I'm of the opinion that Elspeth/Jace and no creatures is the better route for control.
Your thoughts on improving control are not the only ones. I for one will always love playing Landstill, because I love playing real control decks. Even Standard control decks are just aggro decks with a higher creature curve. Nobody plays decks that are devoid of creatures nowadays, unless you play combo. Landstill is that deck, and is really the last of it's kind in Magic. Rant over.
Also, I'll be dropping a primer (hopefully with the help of two other competent guys on the source) on a control deck in the next few days in the N&D forum. It's not new, but I feel it died way before it's time. So I hope to see you in it Hanni.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
@Metalwalker
Yeah, it was the same as my GenCon list, except the SB was slightly different. I ran 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 REB, 2 BEB, 2 Descendant of Kiyomaro, 3 Peacekeeper.
As far as the thoughts about Lightning Helix/Bolt, I actually used to play Bolt in a very early iteration of the deck, but a simple 3 damage isn't worth the slot that it takes up. Helix however is pretty sweet, but I couldn't bring myself to replace F/I with it. Even when the Goyf's/KoTR are out, F/I can buy you a valuable turn by tapping them, or dealing with them permanently on a Scepter by locking them out. I think the versatility to be able to take out a pair of X/1's or tap a big guy/ draw a card, or even cause mana issues by tapping down your opponents lands off a scepter is more valuable than the life/damage of helix, but you're certainly not wrong for wanting the helix. It's definitely arguable, but I would stick with Fire/Ice.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
Your thoughts on improving control are not the only ones. I for one will always love playing Landstill, because I love playing real control decks. Even Standard control decks are just aggro decks with a higher creature curve. Nobody plays decks that are devoid of creatures nowadays, unless you play combo. Landstill is that deck, and is really the last of it's kind in Magic. Rant over.
So what is a real control deck?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
ChiiMagic
@Metalwalker
Yeah, it was the same as my GenCon list, except the SB was slightly different. I ran 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 REB, 2 BEB, 2 Descendant of Kiyomaro, 3 Peacekeeper.
As far as the thoughts about Lightning Helix/Bolt, I actually used to play Bolt in a very early iteration of the deck, but a simple 3 damage isn't worth the slot that it takes up. Helix however is pretty sweet, but I couldn't bring myself to replace F/I with it. Even when the Goyf's/KoTR are out, F/I can buy you a valuable turn by tapping them, or dealing with them permanently on a Scepter by locking them out. I think the versatility to be able to take out a pair of X/1's or tap a big guy/ draw a card, or even cause mana issues by tapping down your opponents lands off a scepter is more valuable than the life/damage of helix, but you're certainly not wrong for wanting the helix. It's definitely arguable, but I would stick with Fire/Ice.
Thanks for the feedback. The critical issue with Helix is not being blue, and involves a recombination of blue spells to support FoW comfortably, and the question becomes does reworking the other spells affect the overall deck? That's something I have to test out. I think my meta isn't too suited for Fire//Ice. I do believe the buying a turn to tap down a Goyf/KotR where Helix would not have accomplished much either but I usually try to avoid those scenarios or simply view the situation as a losing-end to re-evaluate deck design/choices. In the rare instances Helix does nail down a Knight/Goyf and has a better chance at doing so if postboarded Relics come in.
But my main move towards Helix is the stabilizing ability. I often find myself needing 25-30 life total in a control game to not die. This could be a combination of Pulse/Wish, or pseudo-life with Scepter putting some advantage/turns. I'm focused on a Zoo/Gob/Merfolk aggro meta (a few Bant players) and I think Fire//Ice could do well, but I'm thinking testing Helix aint bad since it would be able to hit most Folks if they ever get double Lord/Coralhelm (shit happens with that stupid deck). And if Fire//Ice or Helix is on a stick, I don't think you need to worry about a Knight when he is constantly doing 3 less damage (3 from healing Salve) while you're blasting his face or his other x/3 threats off.
Peacekeeper is a beast (everytime I resolved it, my opponents called me a douche and lost over turns, some friends even try to Jedi-mindtrick me by wasting my tapped Tundra under Peacekeeper in hopes that I forget to pay W for him), haven't tested Descendant, but on paper, he looks beastly: 3/5 Lifelink (gain 3 life) non-REB'ble RWM with a 5-toughness. Out of curiosity, isn't Ethersworn Canonist better against combo/enchantress in most situations? Meddling Mage doesn't do much against REB/Wishes but CAnonist slows them down, not to mention really hating out Enchantress and buying time.
@Mana Drain/Hanni: To me, Landstill is landstill. It could be THE REAL control deck, or it could be Dreadstill or a Countertop/Supreme Blue or Hanni's list. To me, what is a control deck is the correct metagame deck that seeks to control the game. In this respect, it's sometimes great to take Landstill (in a Countertop, tribal and aggro-heavy meta) for a spin, or grab Dreadstill (Merfolk, fast-decks, combo-heavy meta), or Countertop (combo, midrange aggro e.g. Bant/Rock/Loam, non-goblin meta).
There's a ton of things that come into mind when playing control, and all I can say, Landstill is fine the way it is. It's the pilot that fucks up. And there are plenty of capable Landstill players in the world (check Top8s), it's a deck that's underplayed, and doesn't have a cheating factor like most Legacy decks do. More importantly, since it's a metagame deck, it's not really comprised of a specific gameplan except on always assuming the control role in the matchup it plays, and this causes a lot of piloting or deck-designing mistakes that fundamentally lead to bad results.
Personally, after my success/failures with Landstill, I always learn valuable lessons e.g. I should not have played Landstill in this tourney/meta, or I made the wrong card choices, or I wasn't familiar with this matchup and played it wrong, or I got greedy and wanted to establish aggression (resolving Jace) when the time wasn't right. The true-reason why I enjoy Landstill is the lessons I learn from playing the deck, and coincidentally, the Landstill shell is highly tunable (UWB Wishstill, Speedstill, UWg, UWr, Scepterstill, lists with Countertop, lists with Crucible/no-Crucible/Humility/no-Humility, Sweeper v.s. non-sweeper approaches), and since it's a metagame deck, this ability to tune a deck to changes awards good decisions in deckbuilding and playing. That is personally most satisfying for me in MTG, and is the reason why I still play the deck despite some tears once in awhile where the deck completely craps out ;___;
