[Deck] Goblins

How good is Skirk Prospector? I get that you can use him in mana light hands in order to keep the effects of mana screw at bay and there are also times where you can just dump your hand on the board with him but most of the times I've drawn him in my limited testing he has been useless. I'm playing white with Thalia x3 MD and I'm trying to also make room for a tarfire or two to kill deathrites and Stoneforge Mystics. When trying to consider what to cut Prospector is one of the first things that came to mind, opinions?

My list is geared toward the modo meta which consists of UW Blade decks, BUG decks, Storm, and some Death and Taxes from what I've seen. Here is what I'm running:

2 Plateau
4 Mountain
3 Wasteland (budget, will get a 4th)
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls

3 Thalia
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin LAckey
1 Tarfire
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 MWM
1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incenrator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-gang Commander

SB:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire
1 Umezawa's jitte
2 Shattering Spree
2 Stingscourger

Thoughts on SB are shattering spree is played due to affinity being one of the cheaper decks on modo and it helps against batterskull, jitte is there for mirror as well as burn and grindy aggro decks, stingscourgers are for show and tell and reanimate decks, tarfire for deathrites and SFMs, disenchants for engineered plague as well as jitte/batterskull, RIP for BUG decks and any kind of gy based deck, and the goblin chieftain is for engineered plague. I'd prefer a 4th Thalia in the sb over something but I don't currently have one.

Any critiques would be greatly appreciated, just please keep in mind this list is geared toward the online meta specifically.

Did anyone test Sparksmith against Shaman an co? The Jundplayers tell, that that is a card they don't like! In Germany this choice is in discussion!

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Originally Posted by Pee-Dee-2

Did anyone test Sparksmith against Shaman an co? The Jundplayers tell, that that is a card they don't like! In Germany this choice is in discussion!

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Sparksmith seems like a decent option for board control. He's probably best when used with lotsa haste-lords and some MWMs (both to up Sparky's damage and to eat up damage chump-blocking). I'm considering finally giving him a shot. He seems like a strong option considering how Mid-Range the Legacy Meta is becoming.

As an aside: Where the fuck are the Goblin spoilers for Gatecrash? I'm seeing plenty of classic creature-types/hybrids but no Goblins yet. RG is getting some love AND they've printed another Tin Street card. Hope or Tease?

has anyone considered zo-zu the punisher he fits with the mana denial theme but more immportantly he makes fetches into lava axes (2 to play the fetch 1 to sac 2 to find the land) I've been lurking on this thread and am going to use goblins as my first legacy deck so i may be missing some reason zo-zu is bad for us
core...
4xGempalm Incinerator
1xGoblin Chieftain
4xGoblin Piledriver
3xMogg War Marshal
1xStingscourger
2xZo-Zu the Punisher
Land
4xCavern of Souls
11xMountain
4xRishadan Port
4xWasteland

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Originally Posted by chags

How good is Skirk Prospector? I get that you can use him in mana light hands in order to keep the effects of mana screw at bay and there are also times where you can just dump your hand on the board with him but most of the times I've drawn him in my limited testing he has been useless. I'm playing white with Thalia x3 MD and I'm trying to also make room for a tarfire or two to kill deathrites and Stoneforge Mystics. When trying to consider what to cut Prospector is one of the first things that came to mind, opinions?

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He's untouchable to me. His main uses for me are to stop Jitte/Batterskull, and to combo kill them with Sharpshooter/SGC (which is nice vs a moat). Pretty good vs dredge too, if you see that.

Sometimes he ramps you into a T2 Warchief like the worst lotus petal in the world, but that's horrible.

I think that Prospector is a much better card vs Stoneforge than the alternatives.

Here are my MD differences from you:
- 2 Goblin Chieftain
- 2 MWM
+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Skirk Prospector
+ 1 Gempalm Incinerator
+ 1 Goblin Piledriver

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Originally Posted by chags

How good is Skirk Prospector? I get that you can use him in mana light hands in order to keep the effects of mana screw at bay and there are also times where you can just dump your hand on the board with him but most of the times I've drawn him in my limited testing he has been useless. I'm playing white with Thalia x3 MD and I'm trying to also make room for a tarfire or two to kill deathrites and Stoneforge Mystics. When trying to consider what to cut Prospector is one of the first things that came to mind, opinions?

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

He's untouchable to me. His two main uses are to stop Jitte/Batterskull, and to combo kill them with Sharpshooter/SGC.

Sometimes he ramps you into a T2 Warchief like the worst lotus petal in the world, but that's horrible.

I think that Prospector is a much better card vs Stoneforge than the alternatives.

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I have won several crucial matches against Esperblade/Stoneblade varieties on the wings of the Prospector that I wouldn't have otherwise. He is an excellent card for these matches (and as magicmerl said excellent combo with Shooter) although if you don't expect much Jitte/Batterskull then he is certainly replaceable. So with what you described you aim to achieve, I wouldn't remove them and remove Stingscourger MD instead.

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Originally Posted by Ingot

Many players seem to mainboard her instead of Rishadan Port, why is that?
It seems to me that even with 8-7 colorless manasources, Thalia still is playable, especially with cavern of souls as a possible white source.
I like the idea of 3 Thalia along 3-4 Ports, enforcing mana denial as gameplan.
I don't like dropping Ports for Thalia however.

Is it possible that the main reason to drop port in a Thalia-build is Rest in peace?
Thalia can be played through 8 extra sources (caverns and vial), rest in peace cannot.
I guess that the main reason to drop port is to replace it with white manasources?

So basically my question is: Does the inclusion of Thalia and Rip force you to drop Port?
And if so, is the the advantage of both cards so great (in comparison to Port and Relic), that it justifies dropping Port?
White splash has disadvantages to take in consideration, it makes the manabase more vulnerable (also Rip sucks when you dont have W, where relic does not) and tightens deckspace (Thalia takes up cardspace where Port does not).

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I think that this Thalia vs Port discussion is missing the point somewhat.

I think that Thalia only became an inclusion in Goblins when Cavern of Souls gave the deck a blood transfusion and made us a deck to beat. Not before, even though Thalia was available before Cavern was released. Cavern of Souls is so powerful that it is warping the deck around it (since we want to be the best cavern deck in the format). Before that, I struggled vs Force of Will decks. Now I struggle vs combo decks. :)

Port became worse because of Cavern of Souls, NOT because of Thalia (we would run both if we could). Not having red mana that could be used for Gempalm Incinerator and Siege Gang Commander is a real thing. We can only really afford 8 'colourless' lands for our ability activations.

We can easily add the fetch/dual combo that defines legacy to our manabase basically for free, and along with Cavern this makes splashing for Thalia very viable.

There's a kind of comparison to be made between Port and Thalia, but not much of one, since they really want to be played in the same deck together in a mana denial strategy. Thalia really socks it to the decks that want to play more than one spell per turn. Port socks it to the decks that you are wanting to colour-screw.

I still remember people telling me that Cavern of Souls wouldn't revive Goblins. LOL!

So how much of a problem are permanent road blocks like Humlity/E-Plague/Moat are for us? Do we still want a green/white splash to deal with them or is it not worth it?

If you expect those cards in numbers then the splash is worth it. Yes, Moat, Humility and Engineered Plague are all really strong against Goblins, but they are not unbeatable.

The most common splash is already white for Thalia so we have SB options available to us... I think you are asking the wrong question. The white splash is common place now, it is whether the SB slots are worth it or not, and again, this is all dependent on what you expect to play against.

This has all been discussed ad nauseum so if next time you would read back a few pages it will help to keep this thread uncluttered and full of new/useful discussion.

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Originally Posted by trollking21

zo-zu

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Please report back on this. I'd be interested to hear your findings.
I suspect 1 of him is more than enough (legendary) and I fear that by the time he gets online your opponent can play around him...

He's going to be a dead slot against any form of combo, from ANT to S+T to Dredge
The only decks were he won't be just a worse Sulfuric Vortex would be against 3-color non-basic land decks and control.

He's also not great "right now" because splashing white is in vogue.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Please report back on this. I'd be interested to hear your findings.
I suspect 1 of him is more than enough (legendary) and I fear that by the time he gets online your opponent can play around him...

He's going to be a dead slot against any form of combo, from ANT to S+T to Dredge
The only decks were he won't be just a worse Sulfuric Vortex would be against 3-color non-basic land decks and control.

He's also not great "right now" because splashing white is in vogue.

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I'll try but i wont be able to test until i the next semester starts and i go back to college as thats where the legacy group is so itll be about 2 weeks

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

I think that this Thalia vs Port discussion is missing the point somewhat.

I think that Thalia only became an inclusion in Goblins when Cavern of Souls gave the deck a blood transfusion and made us a deck to beat. Not before, even though Thalia was available before Cavern was released. Cavern of Souls is so powerful that it is warping the deck around it (since we want to be the best cavern deck in the format). Before that, I struggled vs Force of Will decks. Now I struggle vs combo decks. :)

Port became worse because of Cavern of Souls, NOT because of Thalia (we would run both if we could). Not having red mana that could be used for Gempalm Incinerator and Siege Gang Commander is a real thing. We can only really afford 8 'colourless' lands for our ability activations.

We can easily add the fetch/dual combo that defines legacy to our manabase basically for free, and along with Cavern this makes splashing for Thalia very viable.

There's a kind of comparison to be made between Port and Thalia, but not much of one, since they really want to be played in the same deck together in a mana denial strategy. Thalia really socks it to the decks that want to play more than one spell per turn. Port socks it to the decks that you are wanting to colour-screw.

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I don't understand this obsession with Thalia in Goblins, we're not winning the Storm match up with her or with out her and it's more important to concentrate on beating aggro-control and control decks with actual Goblins - not playing Force of Will means you have to accept match losses vs certain archetypes in order to have over a 50% matchup vs Force of Will -

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't understand this obsession with Thalia in Goblins, we're not winning the Storm match up with her or with out her and it's more important to concentrate on beating aggro-control and control decks with actual Goblins - not playing Force of Will means you have to accept match losses vs certain archetypes in order to have over a 50% matchup vs Force of Will -

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^ that is basically the conclusion I've come too. I tried her in the SB for a couple of small tournaments and I've never really wanted to board her in vs anything except combo and I feel like we have better options. Maybe it's because she's just not my style but I don't find her to be that game changing

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Maybe it's because she's just not my style but I don't find her to be that game changing

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This is it here. It all just depends on your playstyle. Thalia is just inherently available with the W splash, so with RIP White splash is beneficial right now, no big deal. Just like when the B splash was appropriate with the meta, we ponder the inclusion of non-goblin shaped spells i.e. Thoughtseize, Therapy, etc. It just depends with your playstyle.

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

Port became worse because of Cavern of Souls, NOT because of Thalia (we would run both if we could). Not having red mana that could be used for Gempalm Incinerator and Siege Gang Commander is a real thing. We can only really afford 8 'colourless' lands for our ability activations.

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Good point, I never thought of cavern of souls as an argument in this.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

So while Thalia and Port are pretty evenly matched RiP is clearly better than Relic.

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Although it's already fully discussed, I have very good experiences with relic, making me hesitant to drop it.
Obviously, having Rip in play is better, but getting it in play is harder, requiring W (limited W-manasources), and costing 2 (more vulnerable to discard and daze).
Relic's a cantrip, which is a big deal in my opinion, it negates the dilution of your goblins.
For instance, I do side them in against Maverick, where I wouldn't side in Rip (because the card-disadvantage of siding Rip in does not offset the advantage of emptying the yard in this matchup, in my opinion).
Against Bug it hits the yard, and offsets being hymned.

I started running 2 relics in the main, because grave-hate is relevant in so many matchups, and freeing sideboard space for other cards.
It's like Thalia, being preboard hate, but against graveyards.
And you always have the cantrip, in worst case its like cycling gempalm against a creatureless decks.

Still testing this though, but for the moment I like it.

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Originally Posted by trollking21

has anyone considered zo-zu the punisher he fits with the mana denial theme but more immportantly he makes fetches into lava axes (2 to play the fetch 1 to sac 2 to find the land) I've been lurking on this thread and am going to use goblins as my first legacy deck so i may be missing some reason zo-zu is bad for us

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No... I haven't actually considered him. For me it would be a question of what would I cut to fit him into my list and assuming I did cut something, would his inclusion be worth it?

I think he's obviously not worth playing if you're splashing, but in mono-red he looks like he might be pretty good. I'd like to see how you do if you test him. I might give him a shot if I have some time.

I use to play a one-off Zo-Zu in my SB on my mono-red build when Maverick and Lands.dec were popular in my meta. I do not recommend playing him in the MB though, because he is a dead cards in many cases, and can even hurt us because most of us plays 22-24 lands, more lands than most decks. Try him out at the SB. He is good against any three-colored decks (except RUG Delver), decks with KotR, Lands.dec, and Loam.dec.

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Maybe it's because she's just not my style but I don't find her to be that game changing

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An additional problem with Thalia is that her effect on the game is unseen. You don't know about the spells your opponent *isn't* casting. They just seem to durdle, and then you win. Unless you are testing with a good player and discuss each game afterwards (and about which plays mattered, different lines of play etc), it can be hard to see her effect on the game. It's the same as a combo deck. Why on earth would they run Thoughtseize? It just takes a slot that could be spent on more acceleration or draw/tutoring. But it turns out that disrupting the opponent is pretty good.

It's really easy to see how powerful Lackey, Warchief, Ringleader etc are in a goldfish sit. But cards like Thalia and Prospector are powerful because of how they interact with the opponent.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't understand this obsession with Thalia in Goblins, we're not winning the Storm match up with her or with out her and it's more important to concentrate on beating aggro-control and control decks with actual Goblins - not playing Force of Will means you have to accept match losses vs certain archetypes in order to have over a 50% matchup vs Force of Will -

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Thalia has helped me beat the piss outta many a combo deck at this point, Storm and otherwise. MD she will steal G1 since your opponent probably won't have an answer. Post-board you can bring in more combo hate (Chalice) and have more options for stalling out Combo while you get yer beatdown on. And if your MU is one where she won't be of use, just side her out G2/3.

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Originally Posted by Ingot

Although it's already fully discussed, I have very good experiences with relic, making me hesitant to drop it.
Obviously, having Rip in play is better, but getting it in play is harder, requiring W (limited W-manasources), and costing 2 (more vulnerable to discard and daze).
Relic's a cantrip, which is a big deal in my opinion, it negates the dilution of your goblins.
For instance, I do side them in against Maverick, where I wouldn't side in Rip (because the card-disadvantage of siding Rip in does not offset the advantage of emptying the yard in this matchup, in my opinion).
Against Bug it hits the yard, and offsets being hymned.

I started running 2 relics in the main, because grave-hate is relevant in so many matchups, and freeing sideboard space for other cards.
It's like Thalia, being preboard hate, but against graveyards.
And you always have the cantrip, in worst case its like cycling gempalm against a creatureless decks.

Still testing this though, but for the moment I like it.

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The fact that Relic replaces itself is huge, as is the fact that you can run it off a MonoR build. The pros and cons of comparing Relic and RiP are difficult to suss out though. Relic is more reliably cast, but it might have 0 effect on the game if you need to tap out and your opponent destroys it. RiP has a better overall effect. In fact it has the best overall effect of any graveyard hate card. And it's kinda idiot-proof to play. How'd that old infomercial go? Set it, and forget it! That's RiP. Relic needs to be activated at the correct time, which also means your opponent can goad you into activating it or force your hand.

As far as diluting the Goblin count you're correct that Relic does it less by cantriping. But RiP provides implicit CA also. For instance, you will never trade a Goblin for a Goyf when RiP is around. With Relic, you need to let a Goyf eat a Goblin first in order to kill Goyf with a Relic activation. This means you might have to sacrifice a few goblin cards before casting Relic. This opens up the possibility that your opponent will have a counterspell for the Relic, making your attack ill-advised. But that's the only way to make Relic effective in a Goyf MU. RiP is easier to cast pre-combat in this scenario, and even though it doesn't replace itself it does save you a goblin card that can now attack into a 0/1 Goyf rather than a 4/5 Goyf.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Thalia has helped me beat the piss outta many a combo deck at this point, Storm and otherwise. MD she will steal G1 since your opponent probably won't have an answer. Post-board you can bring in more combo hate (Chalice) and have more options for stalling out Combo while you get yer beatdown on. And if your MU is one where she won't be of use, just side her out G2/3.

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The problem with that paragraph is that you could replace "Thalia" by "pyrostatic pillar" or "chalice of the void" it would be almost the same. I tested Thalia and it is worse than cabal therapy against any deck except storm. And cabal therapy still gets you wins against that deck too. I'm not even talking about high tide which can combo through Thalia while cabal is one of the worst cards for him out of a deck that can sacrifice it so easily. The fact that Thalia is only better against an archetype that oscillates between 3 and 4 % of the metagame means you don't want it as a main deck card (which means not at all since you probably don't want a triple splash).