[Deck] Imperial Painter

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Originally Posted by drude1

Ummmm.... I was playing 1 x Plaines MAIN for over a year now and have always been a fan. Having said that, I've been on Rb painter for the last month and have been trying to make it work. Still working on a final list. Rw is still probably the place to be but there are pros and cons to each.

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You ready to post lists and /or strategies for the Rb version?

I'm still trying a bunch of different things out right now. I will say this so far, the matchup win/loss percentages change dramatically. For example, my win % vs combo strategies like storm as well as my MU against Miracles is much better. But my MU against other res decks (burn or big red in particular) are atrocious. Right now I'm actually testing tangle wire over blood moon main with blood moon in the sb.

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Originally Posted by drude1

I'm still trying a bunch of different things out right now. I will say this so far, the matchup win/loss percentages change dramatically. For example, my win % vs combo strategies like storm as well as my MU against Miracles is much better. But my MU against other res decks (burn or big red in particular) are atrocious. Right now I'm actually testing tangle wire over blood moon main with blood moon in the sb.

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Not sure if people in general are still struggling with burn but here's my cure for that: 2 x Jitte in sideboard. You all know what the card does. It also helps with all the really random matchups where moons get you nowhere. It's even golden against miracles when you start chaining Recruiters.

Against big red bridges are not enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Against big red bridges are not enough for you?

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They usually are if you get enough turns to actually land one.

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Originally Posted by L10

How do you guys feel about the DnT MU? Part of the reason why I quit playing the RW version a while ago is because there is a countable amount of times when I lost because a Plateau gets destroyed by Wasteland. When playing Mono-Red, I feel I have better game against DnT's mana denial strategy, and against Wasteland in general.

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I'd say even to favorable. While we're both decks that are trying to prey on blue decks we have a combo that can randomly win us the game while they beating down with x/1s. Usually getting trapped under their mana denial is how I usually lose.

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Originally Posted by L10

@CptHaddock, I don't mind Blood Moon even in the mid-game. Shutting off fetch lands really hampers Miracles's ability to use Top and BS effectively, which reduces their card selection, where the bulk of Miracle's power comes from. Even keeping them off of WW prevents them from casting Council's Judgement and Entreat the Angels. As for fast mana, I don't like Lotus Petal, but I think SSG is great. SSG helps make the working man's FoW, helps cast Blood Moon, Chandra, Koth, etc, a turn earlier, or can just attack, all of which are relevant. I do agree that the more streamlined Mentor list is hard to deal with though. Against those lists, I'd be more inclined to side in my Sudden Shocks.

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I don't know if things are different for the mono red version of the deck but this just hasn't been that effective of a strategy for me. An early moon is roughly 2-3 cards if you are slamming it turn 1 and they're more than happy to just develop their hand while hitting land drops. When I was keeping in more than 1 moons I was always regretting seeing them in my hand while my opponent had 2+ basics out. Don't get me wrong I think that if they are stumbling on their mana I will snap play a blood moon to make sure fetch lands don't turn into basics.

In the end it's whatever works. I think most people understand how to play against the deck, just attack them from multiple angles and force them to deal with all of your cards.

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Originally Posted by mcbain

I have been the one and only advocate of 1 plains I the sideboard for a while. I don't plan on getting off my high horse any time soon.

For the exact reasons you would rage quit with Dnt I lolz. Delver, Dnt, and many other aggro matchups are weakened by our 2 plateau. The 1 plains both allows us to play our white in aggro and tempo matchups as well as play more lands in control matchups when lotus petal is weak.

Again, I would stress on trying my board. I feel it is vastly superior in so many ways to how decks choose to counter us is sideboarded games.

Matchups like show and tell, Dnt, or miracles are all stronger with blood moon but we don't want to weaken our mana base.

Sb:
1 plains.

Do it.

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Yeah for the record i'm not opposed to playing the basic plains and i'm currently trying out something very close to what you are playing. I'm also playing 3 swords in my sideboard so that I have general answers to almost everything, I think the only matchup where this really sucks is d&t but I also have kozilek's return for that matchup.

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Originally Posted by drude1

Ummmm.... I was playing 1 x Plaines MAIN for over a year now and have always been a fan. Having said that, I've been on Rb painter for the last month and have been trying to make it work. Still working on a final list. Rw is still probably the place to be but there are pros and cons to each.

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Hehe, weren't you also on the LED plan before any of us tried it out? :tongue:

Wear // Tear is now a 3 CMC spell off the top for Counterbalance. Praise the Helix!

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Originally Posted by L10

Wear // Tear is now a 3 CMC spell off the top for Counterbalance. Praise the Helix!

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Where do you have that from? I don't find nothing about that change on the internet??!?

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Originally Posted by zangoasyl

Where do you have that from? I don't find nothing about that change on the internet??!?

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It got answered on reddit.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8hNx9-W...jpg&name=large

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co...h_ruling_from/

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Originally Posted by L10

Wear // Tear is now a 3 CMC spell off the top for Counterbalance. Praise the Helix!

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What a fantastic change, I guess this means I can stop snap conceding when my opponent has an active counterbalance and reveals a wear/tear on top.

A pretty sweet list 5-0'd on mtgo.

2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 Blood Moon
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Chrome Mox
3 City of Traitors
2 Goblin Welder
1 Great Furnace
3 Grindstone
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Lotus Petal
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Mountain
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Painter's Servant
2 Plains
4 Plateau
4 Pyroblast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sphere of Law
1 Sphere of Resistance
3 Sudden Shock
1 Trinisphere

That is an interesting list. It does feel that this deck is moving into more of an amalgamation of painter plus dragon stompy and less of a combo deck. I know there was talk of mentor in this deck in the past but I never tried it. Strange choice of planewalkers though. Also, am I counting 28 mana sources?!? That's a lot. Also not really a fan of the sideboard. I'm sure he went with leyline for the b/r reanimator MU but I think a combo of surgical/f.macabre is more versatile if you want to have a turn 0 play. I do like mixing up the threats a little more though end that is where this deck definitely succeeds.

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Originally Posted by drude1

That is an interesting list. It does feel that this deck is moving into more of an amalgamation of painter plus dragon stompy and less of a combo deck. I know there was talk of mentor in this deck in the past but I never tried it. Strange choice of planewalkers though. Also, am I counting 28 mana sources?!? That's a lot. Also not really a fan of the sideboard. I'm sure he went with leyline for the b/r reanimator MU but I think a combo of surgical/f.macabre is more versatile if you want to have a turn 0 play. I do like mixing up the threats a little more though end that is where this deck definitely succeeds.

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Now that's white. Six white lands, fetches not included as well as Petals and Moxen. Sure, one data point makes it impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions but if people have wondered how a more heavier splash would look like, there's one example.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Now that's white. Six white lands, fetches not included as well as Petals and Moxen. Sure, one data point makes it impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions but if people have wondered how a more heavier splash would look like, there's one example.

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Yeah while the 5-0s on mtgo are nice it's hard to determine how good the deck is without knowing what they played against. His version seems a lot like tezzerator but instead of playing crappy blue cards, he's playing dank red ones.

I think the best part is the 4 chalice in the 16 1 cmc deck. :tongue:

Very intrigued by this list, I really like the 4 top 2 mentor plan. We're already playing top, it only seems natural to include a recruiter target that actually turns our redundant tops into combo pieces. Also, a wall of 1/1 prowess guys is as good as bridge, so it cuts the need to run that, since it's nearly useless against modern show and tell with the rise of omniscience/cunning wish main

I think the list needs refinement. I imagine the single Arid Mesa is because of a financial barrier, with blood moon and two basic plains I would definitely play 4 to fetch the Plains before you drop moon. Chalice is also an interesting choice. On one hand, our plan becomes 100% prison against combo decks, resolving our slow combo hardly matters, a simian spirit guide can win the game when we have a good lock on storm. On the other hand I feel like there are just too many critical 1 drops and I'd rather just play something like 4 thorn of amethyst, or in a list with this much fast mana more trinispheres. Not sure though, I'd have to test. It is essentially a transformational sideboard though. Against combo you just side into walker/mentor stompy with chalice.

I also think even with mentor I'd still play a sweeper for elves, which is popular online.

Also, on the subject of STP, I've been playing a mono red list that I've 4-1'd with several times that runs bolt main. It seems like every league run literally 4 out of 5 matches I'm fighting deathrite shaman and abrupt decay decks. Bolt really, really shines here and I imagine that's the same logic that has STP in this deck. I think it's worth testing more. Based on recent experience I think bolt is just as good as stp in our deck. Big guys on the ground we can block for days. It's delvers, pyromancers and deathrites I find myself removing more than anything else.

I've thought about chrome mox in the past and decided against it based on advice in this thread, however having 4 tops in the deck probably helps compensate for the card disadvantage. Walkers in the main along with our normal suite of high impact cards we can power out makes it less crippling. He's also not running e-tutor which is another source of card disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by pinkfrosting

Very intrigued by this list, I really like the 4 top 2 mentor plan. We're already playing top, it only seems natural to include a recruiter target that actually turns our redundant tops into combo pieces. Also, a wall of 1/1 prowess guys is as good as bridge, so it cuts the need to run that, since it's nearly useless against modern show and tell with the rise of omniscience/cunning wish main

I think the list needs refinement. I imagine the single Arid Mesa is because of a financial barrier, with blood moon and two basic plains I would definitely play 4 to fetch the Plains before you drop moon. Chalice is also an interesting choice. On one hand, our plan becomes 100% prison against combo decks, resolving our slow combo hardly matters, a simian spirit guide can win the game when we have a good lock on storm. On the other hand I feel like there are just too many critical 1 drops and I'd rather just play something like 4 thorn of amethyst, or in a list with this much fast mana more trinispheres. Not sure though, I'd have to test. It is essentially a transformational sideboard though. Against combo you just side into walker/mentor stompy with chalice.

I also think even with mentor I'd still play a sweeper for elves, which is popular online.

Also, on the subject of STP, I've been playing a mono red list that I've 4-1'd with several times that runs bolt main. It seems like every league run literally 4 out of 5 matches I'm fighting deathrite shaman and abrupt decay decks. Bolt really, really shines here and I imagine that's the same logic that has STP in this deck. I think it's worth testing more. Based on recent experience I think bolt is just as good as stp in our deck. Big guys on the ground we can block for days. It's delvers, pyromancers and deathrites I find myself removing more than anything else.

I've thought about chrome mox in the past and decided against it based on advice in this thread, however having 4 tops in the deck probably helps compensate for the card disadvantage. Walkers in the main along with our normal suite of high impact cards we can power out makes it less crippling. He's also not running e-tutor which is another source of card disadvantage.

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Sounds like your returning back to the painter of yesteryear in 2013 - except with Chandra's. I always liked that list.

So long as your not up against show and tell or storm it always felt alright.

Yes I would agree with you that STP is very similar to bolt.

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I've been trying swords and i've been generally pleased with them. Having the ability to get rid of a 6/7 goyf or angular with a single card is :smile:. Also our combo does not care about the amount of life our opponent has. I think that the biggest issue with playing them is that you absolutely need more than 1 white basic to reliable cast it and that is a very different deck than what people normally discuss here.

I think a list like clone9's can be very viable with some refinement. Imo you should absolutely be playing some number of Chandra, Torch of Defiance if you're playing any turn 1 moon deck, the other planeswalkers just depend on what you expect to face. Koth/Nahiri seem way better against miracles whereas Ajani seems much better vs Delver and Midrange. If you go heavy white you also open yourself up to cards like the assorted Gideons, Elspeths, etc.

Hi everybody,
I'm a long time lands player but due to the recent metagame swing in favor of predictable miracles I started to look around for a new deck. Whereas I'm not a fan of brainstorms and one of my all-time-favorite card is goblin welder I found myself toying with the idea of playing painter...
I read the introduction post and ended up with the list at the bottom. I played it for a couple of days but I'd like to hear experts advise and to know if there's a place to learn more about common plays, sideboard strategies and to watch it besides of reading through the whole thread ( I will do but it will takes some time and some informations are out of date).
Thanks :-)

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
1 plains
4 arid mesa
4 Mountain

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 engineered explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 enlightened tutor

1 Chandra torch of defiance

Sideboard

1 red elemental blast
1 spellskite
1 ethersworn canonist
1 surgical extraction
1 duergar hedge-Mage
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 ensnaring bridge
1 Chandra torch of defiance
1 trinisphere
2 Kozilek's return
2 Ajani Vengeance

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Originally Posted by Ciubulu

Hi everybody,
I'm a long time lands player but due to the recent metagame swing in favor of predictable miracles I started to look around for a new deck. Whereas I'm not a fan of brainstorms and one of my all-time-favorite card is goblin welder I found myself toying with the idea of playing painter...
I read the introduction post and ended up with the list at the bottom. I played it for a couple of days but I'd like to hear experts advise and to know if there's a place to learn more about common plays, sideboard strategies and to watch it besides of reading through the whole thread ( I will do but it will takes some time and some informations are out of date).
Thanks :-)

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Hey. As for games to watch i'd watch some of the old painter feature matches a few years back and if you want to see some salty bad painter play i'd recommend my stream.

I'm sure this applies to almost every deck in legacy but one of the most important things about playing this deck is quickly identifying what your opponent is playing and create/adjust your game plan accordingly. As a general rule i'll board some of the slower pieces in matchups where you want to be fast (e.g. the combo matchups minus skill and show), and cards like e-tutor and fast mana in matchups where you want to go grindy (most bug matchups, d&t, pretty much decks that aren't combo decks).

This is my list and this is how I usually board in certain matchups:

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Pyroblast
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lotus Petal
1 Great Furnace
5 Mountain
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon

1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Law
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Sudden Shock
1 Red Elemental Blast

Miracles
-3 Blood Moon, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, -2 Lotus Petal, -1 Grindstone, -2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Duergar Hedge-Mage, +3 Sudden Shock, +2 Kozilek's Return, +1 Ajani Vengeant, +1 Red Elemental Blast

Skill and Show
-1 Grindstone, -4 Blood Moon, -1 Mountain
+2 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Trinisphere, +1 Duergar Hedge-Mage, +1 Red Elemental Blast

BUG Delver
-1 Grindstone, -1 Lotus Petal, -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Sensei's Divning Top
+1 Ajani Vengeant, +2 Kozilek's Return, +1 Magus of the Moon, +1 Duergar Hedge-Mage (You can forgo this guy if you see absolutely no pithing needle or null rods for another Red Elemental Blast but i'd be a little cautious about that)

Death and Taxes
-1 Grindstone, -2 Blood Moon, -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Sensei's Diving Top
+1 Ajani Vengeant, +3 Sudden Shock, +2 Kozilek's Return, +1 Duergar Hedge Mage

Shardless
Same as BUG Delver except bring in +1 Red Elemental Blast

Eldrazi
It really doesn't matter what you bring in or out in this matchup.

Other BUG Decks
Same as Shardless, if they're on combo bring in the canonists and/or trinisphere.

Gl with the deck, it's super fun to play.

Thanks for your your reply @cpthaddock I'll treasure your advices.
About recognizing the opponent's deck I have no problems but It's still hard for me to identify lines of play. I'll watch old streams for sure and I'll be happy to follow your streams too ;-)
P.s. Played some matches vs shardless today and started to understand what to do...and yes the deck is a blast!

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Originally Posted by Ciubulu

Thanks for your your reply @cpthaddock I'll treasure your advices.
About recognizing the opponent's deck I have no problems but It's still hard for me to identify lines of play. I'll watch old streams for sure and I'll be happy to follow your streams too ;-)
P.s. Played some matches vs shardless today and started to understand what to do...and yes the deck is a blast!

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Just double Ajani ultimate all the lands from deck, that's how you win! :tongue:

http://i.imgur.com/qolS6Ev.jpg

So this matchup usually comes down to denying them resources if they ever get going chances are we're going to lose the game. There are a few nice things about this matchup though, the first being that their blue count is kind of medicore and the second being that their creatures minus goyf kind of suck so if you ever get the blast one of their goyfs do so.

Hate to double post but I went 4-3 in the legacy challenge yesterday playing a painter list with mentors like what clone9 5-0'd with. My loses were to Sneak (Sorry about being super salty JPA), Ant and BUG Aluren (mulliganed to oblivion game 3). I like the mentors but i'm not actually sure what matchups they improve that aren't already even or better.

2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Shardless BUG
1-2 Sneak and Show
2-1 Aggro Loam w/goyfs
2-1 Negator Depths
1-2 Ant
1-2 BUG Aluren