[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warden

@Echelon: How do you win without Decays? It's beyond security blanket material for me...and it also does SO MUCH.

---

I'm a big fan of creative problem solving. The only MU I honestly feel I'm loosing ground on by not having ADs is Miracles, which is a rather rare sight at my LGS. I rely on GSZ (and Diabolic Intent) rather heavily to toolbox a solution. So far this has proven to be quite effective. Sure, fetch into Arbor to fuck up a Liliana doesn't always work, but the thing I'm threatened by most, JTMS, is something AD doesn't answer either.

A solution in this case doesn't necessarily mean I kill an opposing card right away - things like DRS, Scooze or even Siege Rhino might mean you solve something b/c suddenly your opponent needs to deal with something that overpowers their own plan. You basically just focus on how you can turn the board state around so you force your opponent into bad blocks etc. And Eternal Witness gains a lot of value. Witness + GSZ often equal PtE 5-9 or Deed 4-8, with optional follow up from Meren and/or the 2 Diabolic Intents.

For example, vs. MUD I've ran into the following opener from their side:
T1 CotV
T2 Tax golem
T3 Trinisphere

I still won that game b/c I managed to cast a GSZ for 1 to stick a Veteran Explorer, which gave me enough mana to power through the lock. My pair of Siege Rhinos handled his board with ease. In this case you probably would've AD'd either the Trinisphere or the CotV and worked your way out of it from there, but that simply isn't the only route to victory. And yes, I got a little lucky he didn't have anything good to Metalworker in.

Look, I'm not trying to say that it's foolproof or just as effective/efficient as just casting AD. Especially early in the game I might lose some life and/or some turns b/c I don't have the AD to save the day. As long as I finish the game with >=1 life, that's fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

As long as I finish the game with >=1 life, that's fine.

---

not against painter #shrekt

The more I think about it, the more I like those new SOI cards. Planeswalkers, new Vindicate, and Frog aren't terrible. If they aren't outrageously expensive I may even pick some of them up.

http://i.imgur.com/rcmT2AC.jpg

Finally popped my online miracles cherry.. One game isn't a lot, but it played how I wanted to with this hexproof equipment build I'm trying.

G1 turn 1 island top, me swamp therapy name counterbalance, hit 1, see 2 brainstorm lands and snapcaster

he plays land go, I untap play land take risk, gsun for 1, get vet sac to therapy, he bstorms in response, we get lands, therapy resolves, i name jace and hit 1 ;) which leads him to exclaim in disblief in the chat haha

From there lots of back and forth, i have deed for mentor, sigarda gets terminused twice, then thrun resolves (lol how can he not?) top into SFM for Sword of fire and ice, he stp SFM (stuck in his hand for ages against sigarda and thrun) decay his next mentor win. I make sure I'm ahead on time as well.

Side out 2 therapy, 2 path, meren and 4 vets (still not 100% this is correct because they can cast Jace with 4 mana before we cast anything good with Gsun zenith.. probably keep one or two in but then how many therapies?), bring in 2 needle, 1 duress, 2 painful truths, 2 abeyance, 1 engineered plague and 1 rec sage (maybe unnecessary?)

G2 bit slow, gsun for drs T2, he untaps and plays mentor, i cast deed and he forces, he untaps attacks with mentor and token then casts another mentor, i untap and cast deed, it resolves and he concedes.

I'm testing a SFM build with 2 thoughtsiezes main (i played 6-7 discard in Junk midrange before, think of it as a pseudo-removal spell thats relevant against combo and miracles) and 4 deeds (kind of always want to draw more of this card)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

http://i.imgur.com/rcmT2AC.jpg

Finally popped my online miracles cherry.. One game isn't a lot, but it played how I wanted to with this hexproof equipment build I'm trying.

G1 turn 1 island top, me swamp therapy name counterbalance, hit 1, see 2 brainstorm lands and snapcaster

he plays land go, I untap play land take risk, gsun for 1, get vet sac to therapy, he bstorms in response, we get lands, therapy resolves, i name jace and hit 1 ;) which leads him to exclaim in disblief in the chat haha

From there lots of back and forth, i have deed for mentor, sigarda gets terminused twice, then thrun resolves (lol how can he not?) top into SFM for Sword of fire and ice, he stp SFM (stuck in his hand for ages against sigarda and thrun) decay his next mentor win. I make sure I'm ahead on time as well.

Side out 2 therapy, 2 path, meren and 4 vets (still not 100% this is correct because they can cast Jace with 4 mana before we cast anything good with Gsun zenith.. probably keep one or two in but then how many therapies?), bring in 2 needle, 1 duress, 2 painful truths, 2 abeyance, 1 engineered plague and 1 rec sage (maybe unnecessary?)

G2 bit slow, gsun for drs T2, he untaps and plays mentor, i cast deed and he forces, he untaps attacks with mentor and token then casts another mentor, i untap and cast deed, it resolves and he concedes.

I'm testing a SFM build with 2 thoughtsiezes main (i played 6-7 discard in Junk midrange before, think of it as a pseudo-removal spell thats relevant against combo and miracles) and 4 deeds (kind of always want to draw more of this card)

---

Great job with the CT on Jace!

SFM + 4 Deed does mean you'll be relying on Batterskull rather heavily. Are you sure it's big enough to get the job done?

Just to be clear - I'm not looking to restart the SFM debate here.

Finally got to try out Nissa, played a best of 5 match against BUG Delver which I won 5-4. Honestly, I wasn't a fan. I ended up playing her over the second Courser and all through the games after stabilizing all I wanted to do was hit Coursers, Rhinos, and Tops. I even went out of my way to specifically GSZ her in one match that had devolved into a topdeck war, which was a big mistake since it cost me the game. If a card that gives me a reasonable sized body and +1 card/turn still can't win a topdeck war on a near even board (my opponent did have a 3/4 Goyf) I just don't have a very high opinion of it.

That said, I did like having the 7th basic land. I think I'll keep that change but I'm pretty down on Nissa now which is too bad because I had wanted to like her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ricardio

Everytime I play miracles, they have the t4 jace and the force to counter my removal. then they counter everything till I land a threat and then boom instant speed 1 cmc board wipe. I can't stand it. its soul crushing and not worthy of my time. Until the piece of shit is fix, im gonna go play GB 8 post. happy rhinoing.

---

If still want to play nic-fit and have okey matchup, play punching nic-fit.

P. Fire kills jace, clque and mentor, even the player himself!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Great job with the CT on Jace!

SFM + 4 Deed does mean you'll be relying on Batterskull rather heavily. Are you sure it's big enough to get the job done?

Just to be clear - I'm not looking to restart the SFM debate here.

---

Thanks, it was pretty sweet how baffled my opponent was, but as I told him, it's the only card you care about in that situation.

I not sure what you mean? Thrun and Sigarda get the job done, and they can get it done very quickly when aided with Jitte, SoFaI or BSK.

I don't see the conflict with deed. Deed is mostly used on X = 2, you have control over when you deploy your equipment and when you use your deed, if you have active Jitte you don't usually need to use your deed and SFM is usually killed on sight by the opponent, can be sacced to therapy or used to chump block for life of you have to deed. Plus eternal witness (and glissa in the side ;). Honestly you all know I've been playing a SFM build for a very long time and the number of times I've had to blow up my own equipment is really only a few, and it was either the game winning play or a situation where I'm likely dead anyway.

Is that what you meant?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Thanks, it was pretty sweet how baffled my opponent was, but as I told him, it's the only card you care about in that situation.

I not sure what you mean? Thrun and Sigarda get the job done, and they can get it done very quickly when aided with Jitte, SoFaI or BSK.

I don't see the conflict with deed. Deed is mostly used on X = 2, you have control over when you deploy your equipment and when you use your deed, if you have active Jitte you don't usually need to use your deed and SFM is usually killed on sight by the opponent, can be sacced to therapy or used to chump block for life of you have to deed. Plus eternal witness (and glissa in the side ;). Honestly you all know I've been playing a SFM build for a very long time and the number of times I've had to blow up my own equipment is really only a few, and it was either the game winning play or a situation where I'm likely dead anyway.

Is that what you meant?

---

Oh, I'm familiar with the Deed game. I know you don't have to care about blowing up SFM - after he resolves, he's pretty much done his work.

No, what I ment was do you find Batterskull big enough to close out the game solo. According to your answer you do, so consider my question answered :smile:.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Oh, I'm familiar with the Deed game. I know you don't have to care about blowing up SFM - after he resolves, he's pretty much done his work.

No, what I ment was do you find Batterskull big enough to close out the game solo. According to your answer you do, so consider my question answered :smile:.

---

It really depends on the matchup, and what's going on. It's often equipment plus a creature, Sigarda or Thrun plus SoFaI or BSK, but BSK + SoFaI does the trick as well.

I originally started playing rhino because TNN, pyromancer tokens and lightning bolt treasure cruise decks were everywhere. We don't need rhino to beat those decks anymore so I'm trying more resilient creatures to assist the midrange and control matchups (Meren, Thrun, Thragtusk, Sigarda & BSK). The equipment also makes sure you have the biggest creature in the game when facing large goyfs and anglers

Edit: for example I beat an eldrazi list last night by chump blocking with vets and equipping a BSK with SoFaI G1 & G2

Been a while since I posted here. Have been struggling with BUG Fit for some time now and played Storm and some GRUB control in the mean time, but every time I wanna come back to Nic Fit, just for it to be very mediocre. I have tried three BUG versions, just with GSZ, with POD and with a lot of planeswalkers, but all kind of suffer from the same syndrom. It took me a while to figure out what it was though. I am very aware that the BUG colors don't have the strongest creature package, compared to Sigarda, SFM, Siege Rhino, etc. in white (not really considering red as an option here). However, the creatures that you can play are actually really good and you can even play some decent finishers in blue. Nobody will say that Baleful Strix, Vendilion Clique, Glen-Elendra Archmage, TNN, etc. are weak creatures. Yes they cannot be tutored with GSZ, but even that is not really my biggest issue with them. Browsing through some of the lists in this thread showed me what I think is its biggest issue: consistency. Out of all the BUG creatures available, there is not a single one I want to play 4x and only very few 3x in my deck. They are either great, cheap utility creatures or expensive finishers (that lack the power of Sigarda though). Throughout a series of games this makes it very inconsistent in which creatures you see when and sometimes you have all the right stuff and sometimes it is just terrible. This can work out for a few games in a row, but definitely for any longer type of tournament. I'm not a fan of playing the white version myself, for various reasons. The straight up BG version lacks a lot of things that a third color could add and is not in any way better than BUG. I tried it as well but immediately dropped it after one weekly tournament. Some brainstorming later to overcome the consistency issue and looking for something I would like to play 3 or 4 of in my deck and inspired by some of the new cards that have been introduced into the legacy card pool I came up with the following list:

Eldrazi Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Thragtusk
2 Reality Smasher

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Wastes
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB
2 Choke
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I have tested the deck today on cockatrice against Merfolk (2-0), ANT (2-1), Miracles (2-1), Imperial Taxes (2-2 against a friend) and BUG delver (2-1). It is really fun to play. Initially I had only 2 ancient tombs but they are really good and I wanted an extra colorless source. The maindeck feels solid, sufficient GSZ targets and also enough raw power. The seers are really awesome since most decks have a hard time removing them, thus basically providing pure card advantage. The only thing I might miss is something that really says "I WIN" as a GSZ target (e.g. Sigarda), so I'm open for suggestions. The single DRS has been awesome and I would even maybe want one more. Cutting veterans is no option though as DRS doesn't make colorless mana. Warping Wail is a really versatile card and I like it so far. Countered some crucial things vs Miracles (Terminus and Entreat) when I was hitting for lethal.
EDIT: Just played another very intense match versus Miracles. I lost the third game after I overextended a bit while I should have kept WW mana open (he was on 3 with only terminus left as removal). Anyway, the miracle matchup definitely feels winnable, although it is very intense. My boarding was -4 Cabal, -4 Vet, -1 Glissa; +2 Choke, +2 Slaughter Games, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Extirpate, +1 Surgical, +1 Maelstrom Pulse. Only saw 1 choke in a very bad moment...

The sideboard is still a bit wacky. The pithing needle is kinda random and I never liked Maelstrom Pulse, but it is a necessary evil to combat Jace. I got the Slaughter Games tech from someone in this topic and it has been great versus ANT and is even faster than regular Nic Fit due to the ancient tombs (I had it on T3 on the play).

Any tips/comments/questions are welcome, so far I definitely had fun playing this :).

If you want more consistency in your BUG lists whilst being able to power out blue creatures you might want to try running a greater number of Diabolic Intent or you could give Traverse the Ulvenwald a go. If there is any build that can pull it off, it's BUG Fit.

Speaking of which - would a 4C Legendary Fit list be a thing..? It would allow one to run Captain Sisay + Minamo, School at Water's Edge and Reki, the Historian of Kamigawa as CA engines.

We could call it EDH Fit :laugh:.

In other news: Could we abuse the Wonderfrog + Dakmor Salvage + either Seismic Assault (to give Jund a combo finish) or Wild Mongrel + some way to push it through..? Perhaps a graveyard package w/ Filth, Brawn or Wonder?

Traverse the Ulvenwald would also be worth running, as it fetches any part of the combo (minus Seismic Assault). One could go 4 GSZ, 2 Traverse, 1 Diabolic Intent as tutor package. Or 4 GSZ, 3 Diabolic Intent for the Seismic Assault version.

The issue I ran into with Bug fit is that it cant be played the same way as a junk deck but we inherently want to construct that deck in a similar way. For example, gsz is usually a great card but in bug your secondary creature is Strix (I also ran snap) and most of the bigger finishers like sphinx or Gtitan are not green.

I wonder if a deck that uses some amount of artifacts would be able to turn Traverse on consistently enough to make that card worth it. Having that be the bug GSZ would be a huge get. Now you get to tutor for the snap/trinket/finisher that junk decks have access to with the upside of finding stronghold/ruins or other utility lands.

Those decks that play glissa maybe a thrun because then you spend 1 mana and get to find the uncounterable threat vs 5/6 as a gsz that can be countered.

Idk, bug decks are best positioned to play traverse and I think if we can find a way to turn that card on then Bug decks have an actual game plan that makes it worth playing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tom4ik

The issue I ran into with Bug fit is that it cant be played the same way as a junk deck but we inherently want to construct that deck in a similar way. For example, gsz is usually a great card but in bug your secondary creature is Strix (I also ran snap) and most of the bigger finishers like sphinx or Gtitan are not green.

I wonder if a deck that uses some amount of artifacts would be able to turn Traverse on consistently enough to make that card worth it. Having that be the bug GSZ would be a huge get. Now you get to tutor for the snap/trinket/finisher that junk decks have access to with the upside of finding stronghold/ruins or other utility lands.

Those decks that play glissa maybe a thrun because then you spend 1 mana and get to find the uncounterable threat vs 5/6 as a gsz that can be countered.

Idk, bug decks are best positioned to play traverse and I think if we can find a way to turn that card on then Bug decks have an actual game plan that makes it worth playing.

---

That idea sounds great if it's viable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

That idea sounds great if it's viable.

---

I honestly do not know if it is but BUG is just a worse gsz/toolbox deck than junk so it has to be built on doing something else. IF traverse can be turned on then we are in business and have something to build around. If not then Bug is stuck trying to straddle walker control/ramp style deck.

Well, adding Glissa, Trinket Mage, SDT, Engineered Explosives, Ratchet Bomb, Sylvan Library & Deed might be a good start. You could start with something like this:

10 fetch (having a lot of fetch is good for Deathrite + Delirium)
1 dual/color combination (3 total)
2 each basic (6 total)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor? (Since Meren)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Trinket Mage
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ponder (I think you want digging power over Brainstorms. Also, it's a sorcery)
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald

It's the start of a very grindy list with some potential to recur stuff. Takes up a lot of slots though, and doesn't leave much room for meaty targets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Well, adding Glissa, Trinket Mage, SDT, Engineered Explosives, Ratchet Bomb, Sylvan Library & Deed might be a good start. You could start with something like this:

10 fetch (having a lot of fetch is good for Deathrite + Delirium)
1 dual/color combination (3 total)
2 each basic (6 total)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor? (Since Meren)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Trinket Mage
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ponder (I think you want digging power over Brainstorms. Also, it's a sorcery)
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald

It's the start of a very grindy list with some potential to recur stuff. Takes up a lot of slots though, and doesn't leave much room for meaty targets.

---

Here some random thoughts:
Add 2 Intuition and 1 Life from the Loam instead of the Ponders (or along them) to gain added value and synergy between Academy Ruins and the artifacts. Same could also be said about Volrath's Stronghold. And to break the grind one could also consider DD/Stage. Intuition into Loam/Stage/DD seems very powerful.
Drop a Gitrog Monster and a Oracle of Mul Daya in the mix for even more party sauce.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobmans

Here some random thoughts:
Add 2 Intuition and 1 Life from the Loam instead of the Ponders (or along them) to gain added value and synergy between Academy Ruins and the artifacts. Same could also be said about Volrath's Stronghold. And to break the grind one could also consider DD/Stage. Intuition into Loam/Stage/DD seems very powerful.
Drop a Gitrog Monster and a Oracle of Mul Daya in the mix for even more party sauce.

---

Good luck finding the room to do that, lol. Also, I'm probably way off on what makes for a good BUG Fit build - I'm a Junk guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Good luck finding the room to do that, lol. Also, I'm probably way off on what makes for a good BUG Fit build - I'm a Junk guy.

---

Room?, My deck has 99 cards, cus my Commander ain't one.

In all seriousness. There is some scream for synergy here. Nothing bout BUG, Junk or whatever. In brewing mode anything should be possible untill you can choke it down to something actually playable in a competative enviroment, or not. At least allow yourself some fun until the fun police comes by and tells us it is crap. I have been toying with exactly this idea for a while now, but never found the time to actually converts thoughts into a list.

I tend to overshoot when gunning for synergy, forgetting that I also need to kill my opponent at some point. Just look at the list I put up and count the number of big, chunky finishers.