Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
You make a number of salient points.
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Originally Posted by
bruizar
I think many adults would rather spend their money to travel the globe or buy a new car than to buy 1 pimp underground sea. It's rather easy to say what you just said when you got your cards during the 'cheap days'. Even adults, with good jobs in IT, law or consultancy would be hard pressed to pick up a legacy deck today. When magic becomes a hobby for those who got in first, that's a real problem.
Not who got in first, just people who are willing to commit to buying the staple cards. Once you're in you can get out, it's not like buying jet skis which drop like bricks for 3 years. Actually over a 10 year trend getting 'in' was a better investment than most non-Amazon / Chipotle stocks out there. I concede that if prices continue rising that people will tend to shy away, or get in slowly buying a few staples a month rather than buying an entire 3 color deck at once. Whatever the buy in it's always going to be a better deal than standard or drafting, buying 4 x $4 Coastal Towers that won't be worth a damp food stamp in 3 years, or some $20 planeswalker that will never be resolved in modern, legacy or vintage and be worth a big mac when it rotates is just an awful way to spend your money.
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They can't suddenly revoke the reserved list, so it's really out of their hands.
Actually, they can. But I won that argument in another thread so I won't rehash it here. Whether they choose to or not though is entirely up to them.
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On the other hand, professional traders have a vested interest to pump prices up, so that they need less transactions to make the money they want to be making, because the price increases price out the majority of the non-eternal community from the market. No new eternal players means there will only be attrition.
You bring up dealers on one hand then claim nobody is buying the cards. You can't have both, you can have dealers sitting for years with cards asking high prices but eventually if nothing is selling then prices will cave. People are still buying $250-300 revised Underground Seas. You may think it's insane, but people are doing it. I'd also throw out there that this isn't a reserved list issue, it's a supply issue across the board. Is buying a reserved list staple like Underground Sea for $300 really crazier than buying Tarmogoyf for $195 ... that's TCG mid on those cards. One is fucking Underground Sea, the other could end up free in a fucking cereal box or video game next week. One is a 20 year old collectible outside of it's utility in the game, the other can be yanked from a Modern Masters booster.
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I think around 10 years, but that will be the end of eternal tournament play for a large part of the player base.
Then where are the cards? This isn't 1995 where they'll get accidentally thrown away. Their value is evident now. Collectors can only keep so many, the pool of staples isn't just going to disappear. Even slabbed staples can get cracked ... just ask sdematt.
You bring up the dual lands which are by far an away the most restrictive group of cards. I'm not a proponent of the reserved list and I own pretty much fucking everything. I think WotC closing the foil promo loophole was a massive blunder on their part, however just like that addendum they can alter the reserved list policy at their discretion or abolish it all together.
FTV: Dual Lands would have been fantastic; the foil trash would have spiked like bonkers, we'd see some non-foil ones come back into circulation and maybe give the market a reprieve. That being said, it may have just spiked the format's popularity and the prices would eventually be where they are now anyway (see: Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Clique with respect to Modern).
Most other cards are either niche, or not reserved list (Force, fetches, wasteland, basically every creature that's played in a SCG top 8, every planeswalker, equipment).
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Who is we? I don't want to play with children, or the poor who might steal my things in order to make ends meet. I'd be thrilled if eternal's demographic continued to shift to employed 20+ year old people. Higher prices would help ensure that. If prices ever dropped too far it would be like going to an FNM sealed and having to play with idiots, children and people who don't know the rules.
Ignoring the obvious snark, I think there are a lot of not-so-poor people that meet your criteria (myself included) that are simply priced out at this point. I'm 29, hold a full time job with stable income, and I simply cannot justify paying these prices on top of my mortgage and other living expenses.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
I think many adults would rather spend their money to travel the globe or buy a new car than to buy 1 pimp underground sea. It's rather easy to say what you just said when you got your cards during the 'cheap days'. Even adults, with good jobs in IT, law or consultancy would be hard pressed to pick up a legacy deck today. When magic becomes a hobby for those who got in first, that's a real problem. I'll tell you why. WotC can't do a thing about it. They can't suddenly revoke the reserved list, so it's really out of their hands. The players who got in first have a vested interest to maintain high prices. Most likely, magic is the most expensive asset many eternal players have. That can't suddenly evaporate. On the other hand, professional traders have a vested interest to pump prices up, so that they need less transactions to make the money they want to be making, because the price increases price out the majority of the non-eternal community from the market. No new eternal players means there will only be attrition. That cycles will continue for a couple year, I think around 10 years, but that will be the end of eternal tournament play for a large part of the player base. I do think there will always be the guys that sling cards, even when they are 80. Magic won't disappear, but it has become highly inaccessible, even for rich people.
I wouldn't be upset, nor even bat an eye if the underground seas I bought a few months ago for 120 dropped to 50.
I just want to play legacy, and new comers are more than welcomed if they can help grow the format
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
Davran
Ignoring the obvious snark, I think there are a lot of not-so-poor people that meet your criteria (myself included) that are simply priced out at this point. I'm 29, hold a full time job with stable income, and I simply cannot justify paying these prices on top of my mortgage and other living expenses.
Are you playing standard? If so how much does standard cost over a 2-3 year period? Or are you just priced out of Magic period? I mean if so that's too bad I'm sorry you didn't get in earlier as eternal magic is really fun. I'm priced out of F1 racing but I get on with my life. At least there's Cockatrice for Magic.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Are you playing standard? If so how much does standard cost over a 2-3 year period? Or are you just priced out of Magic period? I mean if so that's too bad I'm sorry you didn't get in earlier as eternal magic is really fun. I'm priced out of F1 racing but I get on with my life. At least there's Cockatrice for Magic.
I won't go tread into arguments with you here. 1 point I will make. Standard is perhaps the last place to properly speculate if you don't have a zillion euros tied up in cards already. Remember Bonfire of the Damned.. and Tarmogoyf? and Jace, the Mindsculptor? and Liliana of the Veil? Or even small things like Daybreak Coronet.
I've speculated on Magic cards as long as I can remember. Not long ago, I was flamed out of the pimp thread for purchasing a stack of foil dark depths. I know exactly what the drivers of the market are. However, the current trend is A) unsustainable B) artificial C) detrimental to the game and its community.
I advise everyone to watch this BBC documentary on "The Great Contemporary Art Bubble". It applies to Magic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km5KS7U9aOc
My suspicion is that a lot of illegal money is being laundered in Magic the same way as is frequently done with art.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Who is we? I don't want to play with children, or the poor who might steal my things in order to make ends meet. I'd be thrilled if eternal's demographic continued to shift to employed 20+ year old people. Higher prices would help ensure that. If prices ever dropped too far it would be like going to an FNM sealed and having to play with idiots, children and people who don't know the rules.
Standard players: the Hobos of MTG.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Please explain this:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/foil-unhinged-island
A) Since when are unhinged foil basics considered pimp, B) since when do they cost $80 each? really? C) There is no way in hell that unhinged land should come close to even 25% of the price of a guru land.
http://imgur.com/S7EOXWW.png
Looks like Magic to me!
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
I don't think that prices are that troublesome. Yes, I know it's just a piece of cardboard, but except for the insatiable addicts and people who got no other life than MtG, nobody needs many cards. You got two hands (I guess) and one head (I hope!), so the maximum number of decks you may play at any given moment is one. Purchase a deck or two and you're fine.
Do you really think you need playset of every card ever printed? In fact, do you think you need every staple? Bah. I sold most of my stuff and I never noticed I'm missing anything. Frankly it's quite the opposite: I still got some one to two thousand cards left and it bothers me to go through the box every time some hobbyist orders anything on MKM. Don't be a slave of things.
edit: bruizar, thanks for the video tip!
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
bruizar
I won't go tread into arguments with you here. 1 point I will make. Standard is perhaps the last place to properly speculate if you don't have a zillion euros tied up in cards already. Remember Bonfire of the Damned.. and Tarmogoyf? and Jace, the Mindsculptor? and Liliana of the Veil? Or even small things like Daybreak Coronet.
Yes. How many children were raped by their FLGS for a $35 Bonfire which is now a stiff $3. Baneslayer, Thragtusk, etc..
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My suspicion is that a lot of illegal money is being laundered in Magic the same way as is frequently done with art.
http://theatozshow.files.wordpress.c...mel-gibson.jpg
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
This video here explains how the main Andy Warhol collector exercises the same practices as what Starcitygames has been doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEVS...youtu.be&t=31s
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Art has no utility. You can't use it to enter a tournament and entertain yourself and perhaps win money like you can with a Black Lotus or a stock car.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Art has no utility. You can't use it to enter a tournament and entertain yourself and perhaps win money like you can with a Black Lotus or a stock car.
Please tell me the utility of basic island (unhinged foil) or invoke prejudice.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
With respect nedleeds, I think you are caught up in your own property. You are clearly vested in your collection and will defend your position from the perspective of someone who has a lot to lose.
Should you take some distance and take a look at the matter not from the perspective of your own interest, but as an outsiders who is only interested in observing the trend and its inevitable consequences, you'd come to realize how unhealthy this game is. In fact, I wouldn't call it a game anymore.
A near doubling in price of duals in 4 months is not sustainable, regardless of how you spin it. This market is cooked and cornered. There are literally millions and millions of staples out there. Supply is ubiquitous. It is really not the problem.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Then I'd expect all these dealers buylisting Underground Sea @ $250 to cave under the weight of their overvalued assets they can't possibly sell for $300-350.
I'm not worried at all, and I've advocated a billion times for the abolishment of the reserved list and reasonable reprints. Most of the versions of cards I have won't be impacted (see: Beta Wrath despite being printed 1,000 times, beta Birds, russian signed confidants, etc.).
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
That argument has been used countless times before, and it's invalid now as before, as you have no idea what that Beta Wrath of God would be worth today if those thousands of reprints never occurred.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Then I'd expect all these dealers buylisting Underground Sea @ $250 to cave under the weight of their overvalued assets they can't possibly sell for $300-350.
I'm not worried at all, and I've advocated a billion times for the abolishment of the reserved list and reasonable reprints. Most of the versions of cards I have won't be impacted (see: Beta Wrath despite being printed 1,000 times, beta Birds, russian signed confidants, etc.).
They won't ever cave in because they can make their monthly targets by selling standard and modern staples. Eternal is just a bonus source of added extortion.
They just sit and wait.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Land-Rep..._qi=RTM1562569
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA...Z9g~~60_57.JPG
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
bruizar
What is that stores location and security system? :really:
But yeah, most stores that are stable aren't going to have issues just sitting on them and demanding premium price. Some little LGS have probably already offloaded them.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
Magic being expensive is annoying. Idk. I'm a broke college student and I manage to do it. Just buy in slowly. You cant expect to just simply buy into a 4 thousand dollar deck, and if you can't then don't whine about it. I know most of us here already own cards and such so that isn't as huge of an issue for us.
I'm torn. I would love to have larger locals and more large tournies to play in for legacy, but like nedleeds, I like the demographic of legacy players. I hated FnM and such because getting paired vs some 10 year old kid playing a pile of commons and uncommons just sucks for me and him. I played a kid that was like 8, beat him so bad I felt bad for him and bought him a booster pack. It just sucks. In legacy I like playing vs experienced older people. I can have fun conversations and just feel relaxed and have fun. So I'm simply torn between making it cheaper to allow for more people to play, but still keeping the same types of players that I see weekly.
Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices and Reprints Thread
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Originally Posted by
bruizar
Even adults, with good jobs in IT, law or consultancy would be hard pressed to pick up a legacy deck today.
This is not even close to true. An entry-level IT salary is ~40-60K, and law and consulting are far above that. A blue-based Legacy deck may ring up as a 2-3K, but there are lots of ways to trim that cost: buying cards from players, trading, taking advantage of sales (such as the ones SCG periodically has), borrowing cards. I know people who work in grocery stores or do other low-paying jobs who play Legacy, so don't try to tell me that it's unattainable. Legacy may one day be a rich man's format, but that day is still a long time away.
There are lots of new players. That's one of the big reasons card prices are going up. If you won't pay the price, someone else will.
