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Other than the blade lists you have a lot of once or twice and done in that group. Delver lists are powerful precisely because they are so redundant and losing their first threat is just an even trade for them. They're powerful because the hate for them is very limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
The blade lists are in the same category but a bit stronger depending on configuration.
Nice, we're back into "this card isn't too good because it can die" territory
Honest question, are you actually Andrew Cuneo or are you just using his user name that he's been using on everything forever?Quote:
Originally Posted by gainsay
If you are not that's cool, whatever, but i'm probably not the only one who might be confused.
my two cents: I personally don't like what treasure cruise has done to the format. It's existence has pushed several long standing, interesting, and healthy deck archetypes over the cliff and into obsolescence on it's own, and as far as I can tell it hasn't actually created anything cool or new besides the abomination of that is UR Delver. The cards from Khans have just taken the deck types that were already on top of the format and made them even more resiliant.
I think whether people are willing to admit it or not though, a big component to the whole ban/don't ban xyz card debate revolves around the type of archetypes and decks each person prefers/has bought into.
I enjoy non-blue based control/attrition/resource denial/toolbox strategies, and these have all but been invalidated by treasure cruise, therefore I find myself hoping that the card gets cut.
Many of my friends who enjoy the same style of play and who have invested in those types of decks feel similarly.
Conversly, blue aggro tempo, blue control, and blue combo players that I interact are all giddy with their new card draw tools and are adamant that the format is fine with them existing. (although there are a few blue playing friends I know who don't think the card is healthy).
Also, I think people who play MODO are much more in agreeance that TC is problematic, because the metagame on MODO is currently revolving much more around the card than paper tournaments I've been to...
Will the Legacy metagame adapt? Yes, but when the dust settles, there will be a much narrower field of decks and strategies to pick from, because the new bar for a deck to compete in the format is "can you keep up with U: Draw 3 + fast clocks + permission + brainstorm", and that is an extremely high bar to meet.
The bottom line is: STOP GIVING BLUE DECKS AWESOME CARDS WIZARDS!!!
I don't agree at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
Before the format was just as blue, but even more stale. At least now it seems unconventional decks like lands and MUD decks appear more often.
TC also put specific restrictions on deckbuilding; play a lot of cheap spells. Things like Thalia or trinishpere or CotV are amazing against those decks, as well as decks who just ignore Delvers and Pyromancers tokens like lands. If anything has to be banned, just weaken the blue shell of cantrip that power all blue decks, not TC that isn't even used in a lot of them, like Miracle, Storm or Sneak and Show. If TC get banned, we just get back Miracle vs U tempo vs Elves exactly like before anyway.
This is a very good post. The thing is, though, that even if you've bought into some BGx/BWx attrition cards, you don't have to do that much to get into UR delver (for example). You can turn your Bobs, Lilianas, and extraneous duals into Forces and Volcs without much extra cost. The rest is commons and uncommons, and with the reprint of the Onslaught fetches, even if you can't get Tarns nothing else is more than what, 12-15 bucks? Heck, even the Junk Nic Fit list I played at the GP is less than $100 under the cost of the stock UR delver list and it doesn't play Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, or Tarmogoyf. (Granted, I do play Karakas and one Lili in the board, but it's still negligibly close for a Legacy player).Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
Of course, if everyone did that, prices on Force and Volc would go up. But just theoretically at this point, you could do that. Still that isn't fun for anyone. Even the people who like blue-based strategies probably would tire of playing the near-mirror all the time. Just look at the comments in the coverage thread when SCG was running delver after delver.
That's why everyone should want WoTC to take some action now. Maybe it's Brainstorm, maybe it's Delver, maybe it's Ponder. But something has to be done because like you said, every new printing invalidates old archetypes. I mean, I'm not even sure Treasure Cruise is the true culprit. Monastery Swiftspear is insanely good when you can chain one-mana spells into it (or worse, more than one).
As someone who owns and plays lands myself, I can tell you the viability of that archetype has not changed much. It's just as good now as it was pre-treasuire cruise. the strongest forms of GY hate are a bit passe' right now and many former Pox, Rock, Aggro loam players are switching to lands because their deck of choice is now tier 3 or below so you're seeing it represented more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Also, what evidence do you have that MUD decks appear more often now? The same ppl who've always played MUD still play MUD, and 1 fluky top 8ing does not a contender make. Chalice decks are chalice decks. They have the power level to beat blue/combo but not consistently so.
The restrictions on treasure cruise are not many. It basically slots right in as a 1-4 of in most any BS, Ponder, Force deck, being slightly better in those that also toss in gitax, and run countermagic. midrange decks can make great use of TC just like UR delver. And if they don't want cruise, they probably want Dig, which delivers a similar if not even more powerful effect for the decks that want it.
I mean... If the solution is "trade all of your non blue thingsfor blue things, then you'll have fun!" Then why play at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
He specifically said it wasn't funQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I would really enjoy if there was an attrition style deck that was viable. Chains of Mephistohpeles reprint please.
I said it seems because the last two tournaments i watched (GP and SGC not sure where) had Slivers, 2 MUD, 2 copies of lands iirc, more storm and other things than i remember. Grantly, i watched much less before since it was blue tempo vs blue tempo all the time, and started watching more legacy again lately after TC got printed so my perception is skewed and there were many of those decks (as in, 1 or 2 every T8) even before.Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
Apparently reading comprehension isn't a strength ofmineQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Haha. Trust me, the availability of Chains of mephistopheles is NOT what is holding back the viability of attrition style decks. Chains is a sweet old card but it's just not good in practice. I was once bright eyed and bushy tailed as you, and bought into a pair of these bad boys. Needless to say I no longer own them..Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Well, that makes me feel good about the current state of my Pox deck ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
Though I don't think delver is "constantly winning everything," I agree with this post. I don't think blue drawing cards is the problem per se, though treasure cruise is a bit much, but the fact that they can protect the creatures which are already hard to kill (tnn, geist of saint traft), small investment (delver at one mana) or simple card advantage (scm) is what I find hard to deal with. Yes, we non-blue players have the answers to them, but they are 1) narrow, 2) vulnerable to counter spell. It is the saddest thing when our council's judgement gets forced while tnn with jitte is bashing through tarm, knight of the reliquary, thalia, wild nacatl, mom and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by gainsay
It's true. As someone who has actually played 4x Chains in a list, the card isn't actually great - the reason is it still doesn't stop Delver from just killing you.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Chains had a lot of potential that people couldn't unlock in the old meta also. The classic list was Chains of Mephistopheles - Land Tax - Balance - Howling Mine - Winter Orb - Relic Barrier - Icy Manipulator with Racks and/or Black Vises as the kill mechanism. It had huge redundancies built in to gain card advantage and to make opposing creatures miserable and it got it's effect into play consistently. The effect just wasn't strong enough fast enough even with Black Lotus, Moxes and Sol Ring powering it out. Too many cards in the list that did something but not enough unless a couple of other cards were out.Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
TL;dr - Chains of Mephistopheles does nothing if both players are just playing Magic and avoiding making a play now and then that would be routine otherwise. That makes it very weak general hate and a really bad play if the opponent is already ahead.
The card does punish greedy players keeping bad hands because of cantrips though. I love the card, just wish I could avoid people calling the judge everytime I play it :p
From the Color Pie and Disruption thread:
In response to this, I can't say much: I started playing MtG during Lorwyn and got competitive around the time that Halimar Depths was a thing in standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
However, I have to say that Sylvan Library is pretty strong by itself, and multiples generally don't contribute much to it. Mirri's Guile is pretty much a Green Top with timing restrictions in exchange for minimal mana investment, so I can see why it wouldn't be good enough.
Anyhow, I'll post in the Shitty Card Creation thread to give an idea of what I'm talking about in terms of giving other colors access to a Brainstorm affect, and possibly a fixed Brainstorm so that if it is banned, it won't cause too much splash damage to decks that use Brainstorm as a glue.
WotC did make one oh-so-close to fixing some problems card a couple of sets ago but they chickened out on the casting cost.
Grisly Salvage would have been a major fixer for Green and Black if it was 1cc and cost :b:/:g: instead of :b::g:. That would have been a major draw fixer for black and green lists at 1cc as an instant. At 2cc it is just too slow.
It did do a ton of work in Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
See, this is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. Grisly Salvage is great in Standard but mediocre to nearly unplayable in Legacy and Modern. Then Treasure Cruise is printed to yawns in Standard but it drives the eternal formats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Why does WotC keep doing stuff like this? Do they not respect their own product enough to see what they're doing to it?
And yes, I get that they print OP blue crap when they want to drive attendance at eternal events (Jace in 2010, Treasure Cruise this year) up but that always backfires on them in the end. Jace drove players out of Standard until WotC had to ban him there due to declining attendance. Treasure Cruise may have just contributed to a huge Grand Prix event but it's also gotten the blue shell haters in a bigger lather than anything WotC has done in years.
Really, why ban things like Survival of the Fittest in Legacy and Deathrite Shaman in Modern when you're still printing stupid blue stuff? What's the point? SotF was banned in Legacy because WotC thought it was too consistent and would lead to a meta defined by SotF. Well, why not have that meta instead of the blue shell? All SotF lists weren't going to be cookie-cutter, even with Vengevine out there. DRS was banned in Modern because it was creating too many Golgari lists with red or white splashed in. Well, why not have that meta? It certainly can't be worse than the Delver + combo-midrange meta that Modern has turned into.
The better question is which retard in R&D thought that Delve on a sorcery speed recall is a good idea. They learned absolutely nothing from Tarmogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Or Tombstalker... except maybe that the next delve cards should be Awesome(tm).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Correction: they learned the wrong lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm confused what the issue here is. The fact that some cards that are great in Standard aren't great in other formats and the fact that some cards that are weak in Standard are great in other formats? What's the problem with that? Am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I doubt they were printed to try to drive attendance at eternal events. Jace was printed because they wanted to make something to beat Jund (the dominant deck at the type) as well as push Blue forward because it had been so weakened in Shards of Alara (due to Faeries being such a problem causing them to scale back its power)). Additionally, he also suffered from the "last minute change that wasn't playtested enough" when his +2 got changed to fateseal.Quote:
And yes, I get that they print OP blue crap when they want to drive attendance at eternal events (Jace in 2010, Treasure Cruise this year) up but that always backfires on them in the end.
Actually, Caw-Blade was what drove players out of Standard. Jace was great, but he was only a part of that deck's power. The fact that after Batterskull got printed, it became a one-deck metagame is what drove people out of Standard (before Batterskull there was still Valakut Ramp as a major force in the format). Jace was only part of it.Quote:
Jace drove players out of Standard until WotC had to ban him there due to declining attendance.
I doubt Treasure Cruise make the Grand Prix so popular. Star City Games plus the general scarcity of Legacy Grand Prix did that.Quote:
Treasure Cruise may have just contributed to a huge Grand Prix event but it's also gotten the blue shell haters in a bigger lather than anything WotC has done in years.
I played in that meta, and I can tell you right now: It really was worse.Quote:
DRS was banned in Modern because it was creating too many Golgari lists with red or white splashed in. Well, why not have that meta? It certainly can't be worse than the Delver + combo-midrange meta that Modern has turned into.
Well, not worse for me, personally, because my deck was better positioned. But it was worse than what's currently going on.
A Bloodbraid Elf unban might not be bad, though.
I would rather see new cards push the envelope and find themselves banned then have nothing printed for us ever again.
Asking why Wizards did not catch this is foolish, I am thankful for the shake up and even if it goes away, glad even for a short while things changed.
I don't think it is foolish (not polish; wtf auto-correct) to expect wizards to know treasure cruise would be ridiculous. I made one deck, not even an especially good one, and tried the card for under an hour. That is how much effort it took me to discover that it was broken. They have whole teams, plural, of people whose job it is to get this right. Getting new cards right is WHAT THE COMPANY DOES.
It is tantamount to a reporter who sucks at reporting or a fisherman who can't catch fish. They really do need to catch the obvious stuff.
TC is fineQuote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Yep. Treasure Cruise is fine. Great, amazing, perfect when you got it. But anyone else looking at you when you are using it knows that shit ain't right. Just like cocaine.
Ok, maybe I should elaborate. TC isn't even close to the most widely played or best blue card. It's not even close to the best card in the best TC deck (UR).Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
So, I see talk of "shit ain't right" I agree with you but there are bigger problems than TC. TC doesn't help though.
If you ever listen to Mark Rosewater's podcasts about design & development, you'll realize that they just don't test for eternal formats. According to him, 98% of the testing is done solely to determine the impact of new printings on the Standard, Block, Sealed and Limited environments.
I'm sure they did plenty of testing of Treasure Cruise in the current Type 2 format with minimal cantrips, and determined that it was fair and only moderately playable (which it is). The fact that it is basically broken in Legacy with the sheer amount of cantrips was simply not a priority for them to determine through testing.
Thing is, they did get it right for what they were testing for. They were testing for Standard (and Limited) and correctly decided that the card was not a problem in that environment. They've stated over and over again they don't test much if at all for Modern or Legacy, just Standard and Limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Also, I strongly disagree that Treasure Cruise is broken in Legacy. Certainly it's extremely powerful, but so are plenty of cards that are legal. It isn't any more "broken" than the rest of the format. Modern is a little more arguable, but it does seem like the metagame is settling down a bit more and people have adapted to the card, with UR Delver's metagame share being dramatically lower than what it was a month ago.
There is a difference between not testing for eternal formats, and throwing out the lessons of the past by making cards that those lessons and common sense say are obviously mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Treasure Cruise is a mistake, plain and simple, but it is also so obvious a mistake if you know anything about eternal formats and the history of the game that R&D has absolutely no excuse for not realizing it was a mistake. cheap draw 3's are broken or problematic. They have known this since the first Banned and Restricted lists was made. Delve is a mechanic that makes things cheap. A draw 3 with delve is an instant warning sign for anyone with any common sense. I can understand not testing most of the sets for eternal formats, but and card that hits any of the warning signs for the lessons of the past of magic (like having cards with similar effects currently being banned in eternal formats) needs to at least be considered during testing.
The problems with Treasure Cruise were discovered so fast is is not funny. The card is obviously a mistake for any format where your deck is almost all creatures and lands. It's existence means either R&D is incompetent or they made the card the card on purpose, both possibilities are bad for player confidence in the game.
Worse is that this is not the first card in recent years that they should have caught and did not. Delver is an obvious mistake, a 1 mana 3 power with evasion is and no real draw backs should have been caught. Grisslebrand is to close to Bargain with legs (well wings which is worse) that they should have tested it more, Making JtMS shortly after restricting BS and Ponder in vintage was a major WTF moment where they should have looked at the card closer, the rest of his abilities just make it worse.
I have long since some to the belief that the do not test for eternal formats comment is little more than an attempt to mask R&D's incompetence and laziness, and think MaRo is a has been way past his prime. If a card takes 6 months to make an impact, or is broken in connection with weak, obscure or all but forgotten cards then not testing is a valid excuse, if you can just slap 3-4 copies in a known deck type and that takes the deck over the edge then not testing is not an excuse, if there have been similar problem cards in the past then not testing is not a valid excuse because you should have known of the potential.
TC should have been cheaper and only draw 2. If it was Thoughtcast with delve instead of affinity I doubt it would have been broken, and it would likely have still been good in std and probably modern.
Back when wizards was just a few guys with mismatched socks, they had the luxury of alpha testing Alpha with no restrictions on which cards were allowed to be used in which quantities. It must have been a blast. But there is this story (that I think Skaff Elias tells) about when they first discovered that Giant Growths were too good. And a few weeks later, they found out that actually War Mammoths were way too good. Then it was like Uthden Trolls or something. Turns out, Ancestral Recall was a popular filler card among several of the playtesters. They would routinely drop 4-6 in a deck of 40-50 cards. And amazingly, those were the same guys who continued to bust these ordinary cards. It was not until later that they figured out what was making this happen. But once they took out the ARs, the decks were not very good at all.
UR Delver was not very good before and URW Delver, with its pathetic manabase had fallen out of favor. Did the wind blow chance their way? No. They are just the two best decks for Treasure Cruise.
You can't give people draw 3 for :u:. UR Delver can maintain card advantage over Miracles. Miracles, man; the de-facto control deck of the format. You can't have aggro decks able to do that and expect a healthy environment.
When Caleb Durward put Vengevines in Survival of the Fittest something eerily similar happened. His deck was able to deal damage faster than Zoo, still a potent force at the time. And he had counterspells, Brainstorm, and company. That is a big no-no.
They should have known. It simply would not have taken much effort to get this card right. Now it is time to do what they do when they fuck up.
When is the next update?
And what do you think the chances of bargain coming off the banned list?
Odd you say it's "obviously" a mistake when there was a lot of skepticism by Legacy players initially. Obviously they were shut up when it put up results quickly, but it's not like it's as "obvious" as you claim it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
You seem to be under the odd impression that they particularly care what effect a card has on Legacy. They've demonstrated time and time again, for better or for worse, that it's not a format they care much about. While this does have the negative effect of lack of testing for the format, it also has the positive effect of the format being less micro-managed, which Legacy players appear to like.Quote:
Treasure Cruise is a mistake, plain and simple, but it is also so obvious a mistake if you know anything about eternal formats and the history of the game that R&D has absolutely no excuse for not realizing it was a mistake. cheap draw 3's are broken or problematic. They have known this since the first Banned and Restricted lists was made. Delve is a mechanic that makes things cheap. A draw 3 with delve is an instant warning sign for anyone with any common sense. I can understand not testing most of the sets for eternal formats, but and card that hits any of the warning signs for the lessons of the past of magic (like having cards with similar effects currently being banned in eternal formats) needs to at least be considered during testing.
Huh? Almost all creatures and lands? Aren't those the decks that would be least interested in Treasure Cruise? I'm confused.Quote:
The problems with Treasure Cruise were discovered so fast is is not funny. The card is obviously a mistake for any format where your deck is almost all creatures and lands.
Or maybe it's exactly what they've said: They care principally about Standard and Limited. Their philosophy towards the other formats is largely "if a card is too good, we'll ban it." They do seem to pay a little more attention to Modern, but that's it.Quote:
It's existence means either R&D is incompetent or they made the card the card on purpose, both possibilities are bad for player confidence in the game.
And, you know, I'd like to point out again... Treasure Cruise is incredibly powerful, but it's not really any more broken than the rest of Legacy. It's not even the best card in the decks that do play it. The fact people go on and on about how broken it is when something like Brainstorm is actually better (and sees substantially more play) is rather baffling. I guess Treasure Cruise is the "new kid on the block" but let's not pretend that it's somehow the most broken card in the format.
There were 10 copies of Treasure Cruise in the GP New Jersey Top 8. There were 28 copies of Brainstorm. How in the world people can whine and complain about Treasure Cruise being so overpowered but being oddly okay with Brainstorm is highly confusing.
Oh for the love of...Delver absolutely has real drawbacks. True, the decks that run it try their hardest to minimize the drawbacks, but there are still going to be those times your Delver stubbornly refuses to transform turn after turn.Quote:
Worse is that this is not the first card in recent years that they should have caught and did not. Delver is an obvious mistake, a 1 mana 3 power with evasion is and no real draw backs should have been caught.
If it has "no real drawbacks" then every deck would be playing it. Every deck is not playing it. You therefore cannot claim it has no real drawbacks. It sees play in the decks that can minimize those drawbacks. That's often how cards are good: They can really only work in certain decks, but they work really well in those decks. The balancing factor is that they can only really work well in certain decks.
Now, it might be more fair to point out that Delver, combined with Ponder, was able to rule over Standard for a season. That's something that maybe they should have noticed better. Then again, that was also a spectacular Standard season in my opinion, so I can't exactly fault them for it.
They obviously did test it well for Standard because it was really never an issue there. There were just better targets for the reanimation spells.Quote:
Grisslebrand is to close to Bargain with legs (well wings which is worse) that they should have tested it more,
Jace is not even remotely comparable to Brainstorm or Ponder. He costs 4 freaking mana. He's still an incredibly powerful card, but there's a huge difference between an Instant-speed Brainstorm for one mana and a Sorcery-speed Brainstorm for 4 mana. True, Jace can do other things besides Brainstorm, but they're not really a comparison that makes any sense.Quote:
Making JtMS shortly after restricting BS and Ponder in vintage was a major WTF moment where they should have looked at the card closer, the rest of his abilities just make it worse.
Additionally, you bring up Vintage as if that's a format they care--or maybe even should care--about much. They've been extremely hands off in Vintage, even more so in Legacy.
And, yet again, as I've stated repeatedly... Treasure Cruise isn't any more crazy than the stuff already in the format. If Treasure Cruise needs a ban, then there's several other better cards that need a ban as well.
The funny thing is, if they got all the cards "right" for Legacy starting with Worldwake (the oldest set a card you list is from), then there would've been basically nothing added for the format in the past 4 or so years. Getting the cards "right" leads to sets like Gatecrash or Dragon's Maze, where everything is neutered and nothing really sees Legacy play. And then the Legacy players all complain about the sets being dull and boring.
Staples for legacy:
4x Relic of progenitus
4x Sudden shock
Bye
It isn't even fair there, though it's by no means oppressive in Standard, because hard aggro is A Thing. I mean, I can easily cast a turn 3 TC in Standard with either UW Heroic, Jeskai combo or even Sultai (BUG) Reanimator. And yes, Wizards sometimes derps (see: Innistrad's cheap blue stuff, Umezawa's Pointéd Stick of Doom)Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB