Yes I am. Magus is stronger if they don't have Fire (or you have protection), Prelate better if they do. If you're playing both...you really don't lose to Lands very often. There's just too much they need to fight through.
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Yes I am. Magus is stronger if they don't have Fire (or you have protection), Prelate better if they do. If you're playing both...you really don't lose to Lands very often. There's just too much they need to fight through.
Ah, I was referencing the list Bahra used with you as his guest, there were none in the list on the video. Maybe the Vryn Wingmare was there in it's place? Never mind, it was Rest In Peace.
Did you go back to Prelate?
I think the only difference with my list is that I like Mirran Crusader main and Palace Jailer in the side, but otherwise I am running your list at the Baltimore Team event. I have really enjoyed it.
Yeah, swapping Crusader and Jailer seems reasonable, the tutorboard is always a meta call.
Hello everybody,
Went 2-2 in a 12-players Legacy weekly yesterday evening, preparing for a big regional event on Sunday.
Here's my list:
// 23 Lands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
7 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
//7 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
// 4 Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 26 Creatures
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Orzhov Pontiff
// 15 Sideboard Cards
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgement
1 Orzhov Pontiff
I play the black splash, as I find it the most appropriated solution to answering the meta right now. Orzhov deals quite efficiently with TNN, Strix and other Pyromancer's tokens and the 1 off Bob is there to create card advantage in grindy matchups, like versus Czech Pile or UW control.
Game 1 vs Esper Delver (1-2)
I almost never practiced this matchup, so it felt a little ambiguous.
Game 1, I just outpowered his Delver play with Flicker chains and Thalia taxing his cantrips. Game 2 I didn't know how to side precisely. Since he's on 4 Delver, 2 Gurmag, 2 TNN, I was not sure what to enter or to side out. I remember hesitating to enter Path to Exile, Council Judgements, a second orzhov, SWP, needle? I don't really know what threats we have to answer and what cards we don't need main. Bob was the only clear pick.
Game 2 he steamrolled me, getting out much faster, and instauring a board state that was not managable anymore. One more time, I felt the drawback not having a starting hand with Vial in the Delver matchups.
Game 3 I figured out I'd try a keep with Karakas, a plain, Vial and 4 creatures (Thalia and 3 3CMC). I got punished by t1 pithing on Vial and t2 Wasteland on Karakas, and then he just overpowered me with threats, with me not drawing any land. Turns out Gurmag and Delver's are probably threats that must be answered first, maybe prioritzing it over SFM fetching equipment and an TNN online. I don't know. This loss is most probably due to my lack of knowledge in the matchup. With death and taxes, this hardly ever forgives, and I did a few suboptimal decisions (particulary in sideboarding and mull decisions) that cost me the game.
Game 2 vs UW Control (2-0)
I was very happy with this win. My opponent was one of the best Legacy players we have around, and it seems a difficult matchup for DnT, probably more difficult than Top Miracle. Anyway, I had a very good hand game 1, tempoing him out old-fashioned style, with Thalia protected by Karakas, Vial on 2 and regularly getting threats on the board. Post-board, Sword of War and Peace was game-breaking, with Sanctum Prelate as a 2 off in the deck also very handful.
Game 3, vs Delverless Deathproof (0-2)
This deck is a surprisingly competitive homebrew by a very good friend of mine, who got inspiration from the Modern version of Deathshadow decks to construct a Legacy BUG version. It encompasses 4 Death Shadow and 4 Hooting Mandrils. I did a lot of testing versus this deck, knew my sideboard plan and the matchup is pretty-much even. Both games were super close, he eventually outplayed me both times at critical moments. The trample ability of the Mandrils are also a big hedge in the matchup. He previously played Delvers instead, and I was much more confortable. Now, every turn he gets in with the Mandrils, and chump blocking is not an option anymore. Pretty annoying. He kiled me both times by answering my Batterskull and berskering his Deathshadow for the win. I had a few bad draws, drawing my 4 ports before another white mana source, or not drawing one of my 2 RiP postboard for instance, but in the end, Massacre still destroys DnT and he outperformed me generally. Not much to be added here.
Game 4, vs 4c control (2-0)
Another win that felt great. I just outplayed him every game. Bob was MVP here. Game 1, I vialed him in with an active Mom in play, and it turns out that Death and Taxes with card advantage goes insane. I played safe: Revoker in hand with Vial on 2 for when Jace would hit the board, getting Thalia early in with Karakas protection, and trying to have at least 1 threat on the board (Thalia, a Flicker, Mirran ...) that hits every turn, to keep the pressure, while keeping safe options in hand to fight versus removals or discard. This allowed me to have him concentrating on answering the board, and me finding and throwing more threats (Prelate, equipments ... ) as he was answering the previous ones. It went great. I had one very enjoyable play: he was very happy to cast a Toxic Deluge, paying 3 HP in order to get rid of a mother of runes and a Thalia freshly equipped with a SFI, and I Vialed in Pontiff giving +1/+1. Pontiff haunting Thalia even got me rid of 3 baleful strixes on board when he killed Thalia with a Fatal push later in the game. The 2 RiP were great, as I found 1 postboard, and it was another must answer card on the board for my opponent, nullifying his snapcasters. The matchup feels like a catch me if you can game, where the player managing to get in the cop's position being the one that eventually wins it: whatever the opponent throws at you or on the board, you just keep outplaying the threats, and at some point you get catched.
Post-board Sword of War and Peace went nuts again. I decided to put it in the sideboard, with 1 pithing needle over 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I still don't know if this is a good call, but it seems like having access to Pithing is never bad, and SWP sweetens a few tough grindy matchups.
I overall felt very happy with the deck. Like usual, it's DnT, so you need a lot of thought and knowledge of both your deck and your opponent's deck, and that's not even a sufficient condition to win, it's a necessary one. Then it's about playing as optimal as possible.
Two times Prelate in main felt great, and I was not even paired in matchups where it's the most useful (Lands, Grixis Delver, 4c Loam, Burn, Storm ...). I could not imagine not playing Pontiff right now, as it straightforwardly handles TNN, but is also a very good edge in tough matchups like Infect, and even gives you a little bit more of a chance versus Elves. Bob was great, even awesome. Getting card advantage is usually enough to give you the fuel to power a win. Some players advised me to consider playing 2, or even 3, but I am reticent to cutting off Mirran entirely (he still is amazing in Eldrazi and 4c Matchups, and out of this world when equipped with anything) and having to stretch my manabase even more. I was reluctant enough already to go down to 7 basics. But I'll test it.
Played a win-a-Mox in Atlanta yesterday and ended up 4-3, but had some pretty sweet plays I was quite proud of.
Maindeck (60)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Rest in Peace
R1: Elves (0-0)
G1: We both develop our board. I sit on a Vial on 3 for a while and cast creatures. Get a Jitte online but he casts Green Sun's Zenith for Reclamation Sage to take care of it. He develops a little more and taps most of his board with Heritage Druid activations to hard-cast a Craterhoof Behemoth, then untaps one other elf so he has enough to swing for lethal. I Vial in Flickerwisp, flicker the Craterhoof, and take 7. Next turn he swings into my measly board with his 5/5 Craterhoof. I vial in Mirran Crusader and double block with Crusader and Recruiter to kill Craterhoof, and win shortly after with Flickerwisp and Crusader beatdown.
G2: On my turn 2 I wasteland a Dryad Arbor instead of casting Ethersworn Canonist, and his next turn he drops like 6 elves. Get Hoof'd the following turn.
G3: I sandbag a Containment Priest in my hand while ticking up Vial. After he develops a few turns he casts Wirewood Symbiote and then Green Sun's for 4 (I think for Wren's Run Packmaster). I respond by putting in Flickerwisp with Vial, flickering the Symbiote, and then flashing in Containment Priest. After a few more turns of staring each other down I get a Jitte online with a Crusader and take over.
Win 2-1
R2: BUG Control (1-0)
G1: I start out okay until he starts chipping away my board with Liliana, The Last Hope. I Vial in Mirran Crusader feeling confident, then he drops Liliana of the Veil to -2 the Crusader away and once I see Jace, The Mind Sculptor I scoop.
G2: T1 Thoughtseize takes my Mirran Crusader. T2 Thoughtseize takes the second Crusader I drew on my next turn. He gets Liliana online before I can get anything on board to stick and that's it for me. This guy ended up going on to win the entire tournament.
Lose 0-2
R3: Sneak & Show (1-1)
G1: He mulls to 5 and I try to figure out which combo deck he's on after a T1 Preordain. I get his life total low and then he casts Show and Tell. I put in Batterskull expecting to race Griselbrand, but he drops Emrakul, The Aeons Torn instead and I can't beat that with what I have.
G2: I play the mana denial game and after he miscounts mana to cast and activate Sneak Attack he scoops.
G3. I mulled aggressively but not enough, as I did not have Karakas. He T2 S&T into Emrakul and I have nothing.
Lose 1-2
R4: Sneak & Show (1-2)
G1: Mana denial holds him off long enough for me to get there.
G2: I keep a hand with Containment Priest and leave it in hand. When he casts S&T I flash in Priest, we both decline to put anything into play. Next turn I drop a Prelate naming 3, and he spins wheels for a bit while I beat down with Priest and Prelate. He kills Priest with a Fire // Ice, and I get a Thalia in. More beat downs. I get him to 4, and then on his upkeep I Port his Island, activate Vial to Flickerwisp his Lotus Petal, leaving him with nothing but an untapped Island. He draws and then flops his hand on the table revealing a freshly drawn Scalding Tarn and a Pyroclasm that he could not cast thanks to Thalia.
Win 2-0
R5: Maverick brew (2-2)
G1: We both develop boards with a big stare down. He manages to pull off the Dark Depths combo, but I top-deck a Flickerwisp to take care of the token. Eventually Mirran Crusader and Jitte squeak out a win.
G2: He T3 Depths combos me and I have nothing.
G3: I manage to get the mana denial game going and he can't keep up. I trick him into making a block of my Jitte equipped Revoker with his Ramunap Excavator to kill it, and he never comes back from that. Mom equipped with SoWaP seals the deal.
Win 2-1
R6: Lands (3-2)
G1: Keep a great hand with Vial and a Plains or two, but don't see another land for like 10 turns. He wrecks me with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and gets Marit Lage out that I can't handle.
G2: He's about to win after I got him pretty low, but he got too many lands out of his graveyard with Life From The Loam to activate Barbarian Ring to take care of my Prelate on 2 since threshold is turned off so he scoops.
G3: I keep a mull to 5 with Karakas, Wasteland, Vial. I start out strong and get 4 or 5 creatures on board despite not seeing a single additional land for many turns. He Wastelands both my lands then Crop Rotations for Tabernacle and wipes my board. I never manage to come back from that.
Lose 1-2
R7: BR Reanimator (friend of mine) (3-3)
G1: I keep a hand with Vial, Mom, and Karakas, fully expecting the T1 Sire of Insanity that I told him would be his best bet if he ever faced D&T. Instead he casts Entomb for Iona, Shield of Emeria and Reanimates it. I T2 drop Karakas, bounce it, and he has nothing after that. He told me later he wanted the Sire but drew it on his first turn.
G2: He spins wheels for a bit, then expecting me to be holding a Containment Priest he goes to combo and says "Do you have it?" I did.
Win 4-3
Aside from not mulling as aggressively in R3 I feel like I played the best I could. The win against Elves made me suuuuuuper happy and I had a blast despite my disappointing record. The room was full of BUG overall (5/8 of the Top 8 were BUG decks) so 4x Crusader was a great call, and I was never unhappy to see it.
Hey Rob. Thanks for the report. A note on your Elves match. The deck was probably rather rogue. Nice prep though: four Crusaders is kinda nice if you can live that long.
Hello everybody,
Went 5-2, finishing 15th out of 97 at Geneva Legacy this sunday.
I missed top8 very closely, losing to the winner of the tournament at 4-1 in round 6.
The tournament came down the following :
- 1-2 vs Monored Prison
- 2-0 vs Infect
- 2-1 vs DeathProof
- 2-1 vs Infect
- 2-0 vs DnT
- 1-2 vs Turbo Depths
- 2-1 vs Aggro Loam
I will try to write a more detailled report later on. In general, Orzhov Pontiff was MVP all day long, and I did not miss Gideons. My loss in 1st round was due to inexperience in the matchup. Game 1 I had a Sanctum in hand, not knowing what to call, and it was too late when he started flowing the board with 3 CMC artifacts. My loss to Turbo Depths was to a good friend that just outplayed me that day.
Deathproof? Uh, I usually don't ask this question, but what on earth is that deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannaus
I am not sure of the name of this archetype ; it's all the BUxy Delver decks based on Death'Shadow. Inspired from Modern. In this case it was a BUG version with TNN and Gurmag.
Ah, okay. I tend to refer to it as Death's Shadow Delver. One of my locals, Justin Parnell, played it to a couple of good finishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannaus
It was originally called Deathproof, source.
Well, I can't argue with a source from 2013! Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I didn't see anything too unusual about it, I think it was fairly standard. He had a 1/1 split of Packmaster and Nissa and I did see one Elvish Mystic, but nothing else stood out as unusual. I only saw one Cradle and zero Glimpses in all three games, so it's possible he was on a somewhat budget list, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
If I didn't have experience playing the deck myself I probably would've gotten stomped, though. I kept plowing his Symbiotes as soon as they resolved, and his reaction made me think he was used to playing against players less familiar with the deck.
How was the match against Aggro Loam? Could specify more. Does this confrontation interest me enough!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannaus
Which side out do you give in this match? (This second question is open to all who could complement)
Sideboard report and notes from my tournament
I played this list:
// 23 Lands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
7 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
//7 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
// 4 Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 26 Creatures
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Orzhov Pontiff
// 15 Sideboard Cards
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgement
1 Orzhov Pontiff
A few notes: Pontiff is mainly a meta call: he is unmatched in the DnT build to deal with problematic creature decks: any deck encompassing TNN's, Infect, Pyromancer, Elves, Mentor Token's, DnT, Goblins (Storm and variants), and so on.
Sideboard: pretty stock, I preferred Faeries over Surgical extraction's due to the amount of Reanimator decks I was expecting. I am not too sure about this, maybe I'll switch back. I didn't face any Reanimators tough. I decided to remove my 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar from the side and include 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Sword of War and Peace instead.
Heads up to Medea for all his content on DnT. Inspired me largely from his sideboard. Most notably the inclusion of Sword of War and Peace, of which I'm never too sure of, but which consistently delivers the wins. Also the Matchup section of the website helps a lot when preparing for a meta. So one more, time, thank you very much for all the work you're putting in this. It's a great opportunity for the DnT community.
As it came down:
Match 1 versus Red Prison - Result 1-2 (0-1)
Side out: 4 Swords to Plowshares
Side in: 2 Council Judgement 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sword of War and Peace
This matchup should be favorable, but my inexperience in it cost me game 1, not knowing what to name with Sanctum and losing to Ensnaring Bridge lock-out. Game 2 I had too much for it, and game 3 he had a better outcome, locking me with Chandra, Pyromancer.
Match 2 versus Infect - Result 2-0
Side out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker 2 Recruiter of the Guard 1 Batterskull 2 Mother of Runes
Side in: 2 Path to Exile 2 Ethersworn Cannonist 2 Council's Judgement 1 Pithing Needle 1 Orzhov Pontiff
My knowledge of the matchup paid off, and it was 2 straightforward wins. I didn't see my Pontiff's these games. I always name 3 with Prelate. It turns out that cutting them off their free pump spell probably is the best call: then it's way easier to cut them off green mana (port, wasteland) and preventing them to go Lethal.
Match 3 versus BUG Deathproof - Result 2-1 (0-1)
Side out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker 1 Orzhov Pontiff 1 Sanctum Prelate
Side in: 2 Council's Judgement 2 Path to Exile 1 Pithing Needle
I side in 1 pithing for DRS, or would he have problematic PW's. Risk was low, and priority here is to get rid of his big creatures (Death Shadow, Angler and Delver's). I lost game 1 to inferior board presence, but then took game 2&3 control mode.
Match 4 versus Infect - Result 2-1 (1-0)
Same side as in match 2. He took game 2 by me keeping a slow hand with no 1 CMC spot removal and turn 2 combo'ed me out. The two other games, Pontiff, Thalia, StP and mana denial put me in a driving seat.
Match 5 versus Death and Taxes - Result 2-0
Side out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 2 Sanctum Prelate 1 Mirran Crusader
Side in: 2 Council's Judgement 2 Path to Exile 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sword of War and Peace 1 Orzhov Pontiff
I dislike keeping my Prelate's, as they feel like a win-more card. They're great only when you're ahead on board and would like to cut your opponent out of spot removals. SWP was great, Orzhov Pontiff was back breaking. I side out Mirran since Pontiff is strictly better.
Match 6 versus Turbo Depths - Result 1-2 (1-0)
Side out: 1 Orzhov Pontiff 1 Sword of Fire and Ice 1 Stoneforge Mystic 2 Sanctum Prelate
Side in: 2 Path to Exile 2 Council's Judgement 1 Pithing Needle
This was the match in which I was least confident in my sideboarding decisions. What to side in was straightforward, but what to side out was not at all... I ended up choosing to get rid of the SFI, since it seemed too slow and not relevant enough (whereas Batterskull and Jitte provide with the HP safety net) and Prelate's, since I would like to call 1 to cut him off Crop Rotation, but then you're left out of your Spot Removals.
I felt highly confident after a straight win in the first game, but then got outplayed. The matchup is very tricky, and probably I need more practice. Surgical Extraction would have been match winning here probably as well. A good BG depths player turns out to be able to play around all the hate you throw at him, since that's the goal of their deck: dodging the hate, until you have nothing left and you face a huge 20/20 flyer. They were nice matches.
Match 7 versus Aggro Loam - Result 2-1 (0-1)
Side out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben ; 1 Orzhov Pontiff ; 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Side in: 2 Rest in Peace 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sword of War and Peace 2 Council's Judgement
The big deal here is getting rid of recursive Loam's and Punishing fires, which destroyed me game 1. I missed not having Surgical Extraction here, and in the end opted to not board in the Faeries, since I played 2 Prelate and 2 RiP already, and didn't know what to board out additionaly. It turned out to be enough, and Sanctum Prelate with Mother of Runes plus Vial locked him out of the two next games. I also aggresively casted Revoker naming Liliana of the Veil both games. At the end, my opponent told me he actually sided them out. Not sure of this choice, also because it was to side in Golgari Charm and Krosan Grip, both eating it to Prelate (the 1st one locks out the 2, the second one the 3 CMC, for Toxic deluge, Liliana ... Sometimes I call 3 first, depending on the board state, to cut him off Liliana and Toxic Deluge. ).
I believe this matchup is slightly unfavorable before side, but then turns in our favor. It all depends if they can Turn 2 Liliana us, keep an active Bob on the board or lock us out with Punishing Fire and if we have the relevant answers to those cards. I think the DnT player should take the control role, and try to lock them out of their game. Then, Knight of the Reliquary apart, we should be able to overpower them on board with Equipments and Flyers. Sword of War and Peace helps a great lot here as well, as it serves as an additional pro-red protection (since SFI usually eats its Qasali Pridemage activation). Plus it can give protection from Knight, which turns out to be highly relevant.
In general: I didn't face TNN decks, but Pontiff still delivered. He helps fixing a lot of difficult matchups. Bob was the best Silver Bullet one could wish for: when you don't have him, you do your usual DnT stuff, and when you turn out to have him active, he gives so much card advantage that the game is pretty much unlosable further down the road. The 2 Prelates main felt great all day long. I sided in Pithing Needle every match, and it never was a dead draw.
Any comments are welcome on all the sideboarding decisions or in general
You were wondering in you report from the classic event if Sneak and show is still a favorable match-up for D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
I don't think it is anymore. Most of them now play omniscience to drop down from Show and tell and you can't win most of the time vs a resolved omniscience. You really need a lot of hate and most important, you need to gamble when playing the show and tell game.
Do i drop a thalia or cannonist against omniscience? or containement priest vs emrakul or griselbrand? or Revoker for sneak attack? It's a guessing game that you can loose very easily.
First you need hate, then it needs to be the right hate, and you need to choose wisely when he resolves a sneak and show.
They also play more basics making it a little bit harder to disrupt their mana...
Maybe still favorable against none omniscience versions, but i think most of S&T decks now play omniscience, and then the match-up is only even, or a little bit favorable only.
What's the link to the DNT discord group?
EqTF7y5Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios
Here is some new deck tech I am going to test.
Death & Taxes & Force of Will
Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Spell Queller
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:23
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Rest in Peace
4 Force of Will
2 Submerge
My main goal when building the deck was to retain the strengths of mono white D&T but to be able to support Force of Will.
I put FoW in the board because I could not get enough blue sources in the main without playing cantrips.
I expect a better matchup than monowhite D&T against basically all combo decks. I think the deck looks strong against many other decks as well thanks to TNN, Spell Queller, Spell Pierce, FOW and Submerge but that comes at the cost of a weaker mana base. I expect a worse matchup than mono white against Eldrazi, Lands and Loam.
I would be interested in hearing what you think about the deck and how you would tweak it. I will post a report if it plays well :)
Some things I have considered:
* Spell pierces to the main to complement the mana denial plan, but havent been able to fit them.
* Cantrips to support FoW in main and as a great use of mana with active vial, but this opens the deck up to two new angles of attack: CMC 1 hate and card draw hate
* More cliques main but I wanted to keep the number of UU cards pretty low. I instead choose to play only 1 karakas and 1 Venser + 1 Clique as tutorable toolbox cards and late game recursion.
* 1 Labyrinth, 1 Meddling Mage and 1 Revoker instead of 3 Revoker. Meddling Mage would work as good insurance when Spell Queller has exiled a card. Labyrinth works well with Clique. But I think the deck needs more answers to already deploed threats which Revokers provides.
* Removing SoFaI as maybe I dont need it since I am playing TNN. I could replace it with something like Meddling Mage or Clique instead. But I still think that SoFaI plays an important backup role incase Jitte gets disrupted.
It's time for Stoneblade at this point.
Too many reasons to list.
Thanks for the links!Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
I enjoy your site and have gotten inspiration from there. I have read most of the content on your site one or more times :-)
I'm glad you find it helpful. One thing to keep in mind is that very few people are still mucking around with a blue splash these days. There's probably a reason for that. It's really hard on the mana, and it often involves dropping Port to make all the UU cards castable. If you're just trying to play with Queller, it's probably fine. One you start trying TNN, Venser, and Clique though, at that point, transitioning to a full-on Stoneblade shell might be wise. Test both and see what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by autonom
I tried the U splash quite recently once more, cutting all the beater-esque (Mirran Crusader et al.) stuff for True-Name Nemesis and Geist of Saint Traft (in a 3-2 split between the two). It's not worth it in my opinion. While TNN gives you total peace of mind in terms of spot removal, -1/-1 effects now hit even harder than they did before, and the mana mixture in face of Wasteland (both your own and your opponent's ;)) is a real problem. I'll migrate back to my Recruiter of the Guard-heavy mono-W list with Magus of the Moon/Orzhov Pontiff via Cavern of Souls, I guess.
On a slightly different note: I recently dabbled in Burn with a white splash for Steppe Lynx and Jotun Grunt. And oh boy, does Grunt pull its weight these days! Due to its stellar performance, I'm very much considering trying it in D&T again. Incrementally hosing Deathrite Shaman, Delve-spells, and all other kinds of graveyard shenanigans, all while dominating the board at 1W is a bargain that needs revisiting imo.
The black and red splashes have a slightly less clean manabase but they get to abuse Cavern, so it's a trade-off. Whereas green or blue splashes just have strictly worse manabases.
And basically all of the powerful creatures you want to play are UU and not human.
This seems fun! In my opinion, the issue with Jotun in DnT is twofolds: its lack of versatility and he eats all removals. If he's too much of an issue on-board (kolaghan-commands in graveyard for example), your opponent will remove it with priority. And then the big boy will have achieved nothing, and ends up being a loss of tempo on your side.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
But I'm very interested to hear about your experience, if you end up testing him :)
Jotun Grunt is an awkward card normally and it got more awkward after RiP got printed. I'm not sold on it since we have gotten so many other options for those flex slots in the past year or so.
Just throwing in my 2 cents on the blue splash - yeah, UU cards aren't playable in d&t. But the mana base with Geist of St Traft is doable, and its interaction with Karakas and equipment is legitimately powerful in a way that you don't see in any other deck in any other format. Unfortunately, there aren't really any other reasons to go blue. The other creatures with a single blue pip like reflector mage and spell queller aren't really strong enough for legacy, and Meddling Mage is cool but just another turn 2 hatebear in this deck, nothing special. So a blue splash is a dead end right now, barring some silly creature being printed in a new commander/conspiracy.
Colo, you probably considered this, but Grunt is kinda clunky in D+T because the deck does not do anything with the graveyard at all. Games can go a bunch of turns before the first card is even there sometimes. I used Grunt extensively before Thalia 1.0 as recently as 2012. But I think the bar for a card being in this deck has gone up considerably since then.
I recall it being poor graveyard hate and a good beater IF the opponent felt threatened enough to blow removal on him. Exceptionally good at fighting Tarmogoyf.
Hey folks,
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Two questions for you guys:
-Against topless miracles game 2 (on the play), do you keep this: plains, fetch (black splash), waste, karakas, plow, mother, palace jailer? 2 plows were kept in because you expect 2-3 mentor, izzet staticaster and containment priest.
-Do you board out Serra Avenger against Aluren?
I'm quite satisfied with my current BW list. Last two tournaments I went undefeated in the swiss, but then lost in the QF. Match-ups:
R1: BUG delver 2-0
R2: Grixis control 2-0
R3: Grixis delver 2-1
R4: Infect 2-0
R5,6: ID
QF: Aluren 1-2
R1,2: Bye
R3: Sneaky show with omni 2-1
R4: Infect 2-0
R5: Bant deathblade 2-0
R6,7: ID
QF: Topless miracles 0-2
From these, pontiff is a real asset against infect, true-name blade decks, aluren and grixis control. Not sure about confidant, as he's never lasted a turn the few times I saw him and there was never a good window for recruiting him. Maybe a creature with more immediate impact, like a canonist, a third revoker or a spirit of the labyrinth is better here. Kambal felt like the only card that actually gave me a fighting chance against decks like topless miracles and grixis control, though he didn't play a role in these matches as I never saw him. There's some match-ups were extra crusaders would be better (like Aluren and czech pile), but then there's a whole bunch where Kambal is better, like miracles, lands, sneaky show, burn, UR delver and grixis control.
Boarding:
BUG delver:
-2 revoker, -1 prelate, -1 pontiff, -1 familiar, -1 jitte
+1 path, +2 council, +2 RIP, +1 blessed alliance
Grixis control:
-2 revoker, -4 STP, -2 SFM, -1 jitte, -1 batterskull
+2 Kambal, +2 RIP, +2 Council, +1 Palace Jailer, +1 Pontiff, +2 Canonist
Grixis delver:
-2 revoker, -1 familiar, -1 recruiter, -1 confidant
+1 prelate, +1 path, +2 council, +1 blessed alliance
Infect:
-2 revoker, -2 crusader, -1 batterskull, -1 SFM, -1 Karakas
+2 canonist, +1 pontiff, +1 needle, +1 blessed alliance, +1 path, +1 Leonin Relic-Warder
Sneaky show:
-4 STP, -1 mother, -1 jitte, -1 pontiff, -2 crusader, -1 SFM
+2 Kambal, +1 palace jailer, +1 prelate, +1 leonin relic-warder, +2 canonist, +2 council, +1 needle
Bant deathblade:
-4 Thalia, -1 prelate, -1 familiar
+1 pontiff, +1 needle, +1 blessed alliance, +2 council, +1 leonin relic-warder
Miracles:
-2 STP, -2 crusader, -2 revoker, -1 jitte
+2 Kambal, +1 jailer, +1 prelate, +2 canonist, +1 needle
I wouldn't keep a hand that has no way of doing damage until turn 5 vs Miracles. Wasteland and STP are not cards you want in your opening hand. I think you pretty much have to draw Thalia or SfM immediately for that hand to have a chance vs a normal Miracles start. (I would also play the CJs over STPs, or potentially in addition to 1/2, depending on how Mentor heavy they seemed.)
I don't think the Canonists are that good vs Grixis Control, and boarding out SfM/equip seems wrong there. Sometimes they have Kolaghan's Command, other times they don't and you just win.
I like Kambal a lot, I have played very similar lists and done pretty well with them. I don't think Judge's Familiar is very good, but it's not so bad that you can't win with one in your deck.
@Mad Matt
Snap mulligan that hand against Miracles. No thought. The last thing I want to do is give my Miracles opponent time to set up and make land drops while playing annoying things like Search for Azcanta. If you brick on a turn 2 and/or 3 play, you're going to be really far behind. Assuming your Mom is dead by turn 4, you're also just one EoT Snapcaster Mage (plus removal spell) from losing the Monarch status and probably the game.
Serra Avenger is decisively average against Aluren (and any other Baleful Strix deck). Whether or not you board it out is entirely dependent on how many cards you have to bring in and what other cards you need to board out first.
Some other random thoughts:
I wouldn't cut Jitte against a Delver deck.
Equipment is the best thing in your deck against any control deck, even if they have things like K. Command.
I'd 100% want Council's Judgment against Miracles. I second Iatee's claim.
Try cutting StP against Stoneblade decks of various natures. It sounds weird, but it feels pretty good.
I played council over plow before, but the only relevant extra hit for council is Jace. Getting rid of Jace is critical, but in my experience the chances of surviving a resolved Jace are very slim anyway. The reduced mana cost (in particular with Thalia) and instant speed on the other hand for plow make a lot of difference, in particular when you board in canonist.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
The reasoning behind boarding out equipment is that they don't just have the commands, they have therapy too. That plus a bunch of unconditional spot removal (they tend to play bolt over push) makes SFM approaches very vulnerable. You don't just lose a threat and/or a piece of equipment, you lose a lot of tempo along the way as well. Extra creatures also bank better against Liliana of the Last Hope.Quote:
I don't think the Canonists are that good vs Grixis Control, and boarding out SfM/equip seems wrong there. Sometimes they have Kolaghan's Command, other times they don't and you just win.
My idea was at first that this is a very dubious hand. But it does have the turn 1 play they need to answer if they don't want to face the turn 2 un-plowable SFM or Thalia (which I can draw into or they don't know I don't have). Plow goes fairly well along with Jailer in keeping the monarch for a few turns and Jailer forces them to have it or die to all the value you draw into. What convinced me to keep it was the Karakas, which sets up very difficult board states for them to get rid of if you manage to find a legend (there's 6 post board, + recruiters).Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea
But as it turned out, the hand was too slow and he was able to find most of the answers he needed by the time I resolved Jailer. I did manage to draw four cards off of him, but all of those were blanks and I was forced to plow a snapcaster to stay the monarch (not using vial for pontiff in fear of force of will if an eventual mentor arrived). So yeah, this is a mulligan next time around. I had the answers that should have been sufficient to stay the monarch if he didn't have everything, but he had everything because the hand was too slow to prevent him from finding it.
I boarded it out, but I got aggro'd to death game 3 as I failed to find anything of pressure or blocking value. Made me think that maybe I should keep in more beaters, as you're aggro in this match-up anyway. Strix is the problem, but you do have pontiffs and Avenger survives anything else they can throw at you.Quote:
Serra Avenger is decisively average against Aluren (and any other Baleful Strix deck). Whether or not you board it out is entirely dependent on how many cards you have to bring in and what other cards you need to board out first.
That should have been a wisp, actually. Cutting a flyer ain't that attractive against delver either, but this is a deck where I have much more fear from tombstalker than delver so I want all the removal I can get (+RIP). Maybe a recruiter is a better pick, though that does imply one less way to find crusader.Quote:
I wouldn't cut Jitte against a Delver deck.
Is it always? Equipment is good against control and midrange because it is card advantage: every dumb bear becomes a threat when equipped. But it is also a loss of tempo. If you know you're playing against card advantage.deck, including artifact removal, maybe a tempo boost is better than trying to beat them at the attrition game? I find this particularly tempting against Grixis, because they have 2-3 Kolaghan in addition to a therapy suite. This is different than, say, miracles, which has much less answers available to equipment.Quote:
Equipment is the best thing in your deck against any control deck, even if they have things like K. Command.
I'm not saying I'm convinced that this strategy is the right approach. But it feels like something worth exploring. The match-up is quite bad, while the deck is very popular over here, so any boons are welcome.
I always cut STP against stoneblade decks, except for this sort of build. They run much more creatures than esper or deathblade, including 8 mana dorks. While STP can't hit True-Name, a raced-out jitte turn 3 is just as threatening. A double exalted noble or single exalted Deathrite/SFM with a Jitte is just as threatening as a true-name if you don't have the plow (and the crusader comes down too late). Thalia, on the other hand, tends to be worse because they play fewer noncreature spells, while having more ramp, and you depend considerably on timely resolving your noncreature spells to deal with their true-names and equipment.Quote:
Try cutting StP against Stoneblade decks of various natures. It sounds weird, but it feels pretty good.
So here's an interesting list for you all.
I don't find the Grixis matchups to be about tempo, they're actually attrition matchups. Boarding out your two-for-ones so that you don't get two-for-one'd is not a great strategy there. Kolaghan's Command and Cabal Therapy can wreck you with or without Stoneforge.
It's worth mentioning:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Mat
* Kolaghan's is always a 2-for-1 outside of very rare scenarios. It's true that KCom can be mediocre tempo if all it does is pick off a mom and make you discard a card, but it's always a 2-for-1.
* Cabal Therapy is good against equips sure, but they still run YP and Probe, which is why Therapy is mained against the rest of the field too. A good chunk of the field doesn't run SFM and they still get torn up by Therapy. Given this, dropping the main way your deck wins seems pretty meh.
RIP does seem like the best option; as it hits KCom (potentially), Therapy, Gurmag, SCM, DRS, and they don't have way to remove it. I didn't look at your list, but dropping Revokers, Recruiters, and other slow or low impact cards is the way to go. Recruiter isn't must answer unless you're winning, and Revoker doesn't hit much. Go fo cards that say "you better have it", which are SFM, Crusader, Brimaz, and Mom. If you can land three "must answers" in a row, the chances are that they'll be out of stuff. If you durdle on a Recruiter to get your must answer, you open yourself up to a therapy and give your opp a full turn to find removal, therapy, Force, or a host of other nasties that can get you.
Honestly [as an outsider] I find Recruiter to be a really mediocre addition to the deck. I think if people were running the "old" MonoW D&T they'd still be winning just as much (and possibly more.) Recruiter makes sense in the Magus lists or for those hold outs running mangara; but IMO you should just run 3-4 high impact cards against the field (Crusader, Brimaz, or some other tech-nasty.) When TNN first came out and the list went full on aggro with Serra Avengers and whatnot, that's the list I think is best poised; and it's just not putting up results because everyone's still stuck on Recruiter from the age of WR D&T
@Tescrin
i 100% second what you are saying.
that being said, im still playing exactly one recruiter in the sideboard to increase the chances of finding my sideboard bullets mostly, and the occasional flickerwisp chain which is sometimes just very good.
the current field is so polluted with removal (pile/grixis) that i have the best win record by just soflty disrupting the opponent and slowing them down initially(thalia,port,waste, revoker) and then jamming a creature that just doesnt get hit by one-for-one removal and idieally has first/double strike or some form of evasion to strap jitte/sword on it and go from there. im playing 8-9 creatures that fit this category in my 75 and it feels awesome.
you obviously just need to be careful to not overextend into deluge/casualties etc.. my plan basically is if you discard/remove one of them, im just throwing another one at you that you can barely ever remove. but that only works if you dedicate enough slots in the deck towards such creatures.
also worth noting is the fact that im playing 1 maindeck relic of progenitus at the moment and it has been great so far. relevant in a lot of match ups and at worst it is digging through your deck a little.
generally, i think DnT is getting built a little too slow/clunky these days and while recruiter of the guard opens up a lot of new possibilities, you shouldnt play too many,imo.
i personally prefer a much more streamlined approach to the deck than durdling around too much with clunky cards in the main that are cute sometimes, but other times are just absolutely terrible and a shot in the dark too many times(palace jailer/prelate/spirit of the labyrinth etc). a hard to deal with creature package (especially in the current meta) in addition to our soft disruption alongside a sideboard with cheap/efficient answers to our most problematic cards/strategies g2/g3 is rarely ever bad.
also @Phil
SoWaP is great!
We have a few tricks that can make an attrition fight possible: problematic creatures like Mirran Crusader, Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Palace Jailer; legendaries + Karakas; Orzhov Pontiff/Cunning Sparkmage; Rest in Peace and unanswered equipment. The problem I experienced is that our approaches to gain card advantage are less consistent and/or abundant than theirs. Hence the idea of trying to tempo them instead, in part by denying them gaining a lot of tempo advantage with Kolaghan's Command.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
On the other hand, Tescrin makes a good point: recruiter fits rather poorly in the tempo strategy, while he may be important in tutoring up the right pieces of the above list. Also, Canonist is itself very conditional, given that he also gives them extra wiggle-room with Kolaghan due to it being an artifact. I should find some more time for proper testing this match-up.
There's a world of difference between a 2-for-1 that wrecks your and/or stabilizes their board and a 2-for-1 that has no board impact, making you discard a card and them getting back a strix or snap they can only cast next turn. With equipment in particular, the card more easily becomes a 3-for-1, killing a creature, an equipment and blocking the formerly equipped creature to death with one of their snaps, strixes or tokens that did not cost them a card. You're not going to escape that it is a 2-for-1. But you can try to make it so that it's as lame a 2-for-1 as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
The problem of recruiter and stoneforge is that they remove one of the obstacles Grixis players need to take to make maximal use of their therapies. They don't always have the probe, as well as the therapy and the pyromancer and the mana to sequence them properly. Recruiter has the problem somewhat less, because starting from turn 4 (and even better with a living vial) you can still find something castable and play it if you know they have therapy. That's also one of the reasons I like the single Judge's Familiar, because you can recruit for it and jam it to throw their next turn into complete disarray manawise, as they are a much more mana hungry deck without DRS than czech pile.Quote:
* Cabal Therapy is good against equips sure, but they still run YP and Probe, which is why Therapy is mained against the rest of the field too. A good chunk of the field doesn't run SFM and they still get torn up by Therapy. Given this, dropping the main way your deck wins seems pretty meh.
RIP is by far the best card against them. I've considered going up to 3 for this reason. Grixis does not run DRS though, so it is less vulnerable than Czech Pile. And they tend to board out counters, so extra RIP's are complete duds unless they are playing Engineered Explosives.Quote:
RIP does seem like the best option; as it hits KCom (potentially), Therapy, Gurmag, SCM, DRS, and they don't have way to remove it.
The therapy risk of recruiter is an issue, and rather inconsistent with a tempo plan. The reason to keep it in is that it can find the key creatures you want for this match-up. It's a virtual extra copies of cards like Mirran Crusader, Thalia, Orzhov Pontiff and Palace Jailer. With less equipment, its 1/1 body is pretty lame, but it does make any future Flickerwisp a more serious threat if you don't have vial.Quote:
I didn't look at your list, but dropping Revokers, Recruiters, and other slow or low impact cards is the way to go. Recruiter isn't must answer unless you're winning, and Revoker doesn't hit much. Go fo cards that say "you better have it", which are SFM, Crusader, Brimaz, and Mom. If you can land three "must answers" in a row, the chances are that they'll be out of stuff. If you durdle on a Recruiter to get your must answer, you open yourself up to a therapy and give your opp a full turn to find removal, therapy, Force, or a host of other nasties that can get you.
Recruiter allows you to play singletons like Orzhov Pontiff, Sanctum Prelate, Palace Jailer, Leonin Relic-Warder and Magus of the Moon to great effect, because you always have about twice as many ways to find them than you'd have otherwise. That's the main reason to pack him. It makes splashing possible and therefore allows you to run cards that address serious problems this deck tends to have, like True-Name Nemesis, token swarms, opposing mom board states, argothian enchantresses, strix chains, infect creatures...Quote:
Honestly [as an outsider] I find Recruiter to be a really mediocre addition to the deck. I think if people were running the "old" MonoW D&T they'd still be winning just as much (and possibly more.) Recruiter makes sense in the Magus lists or for those hold outs running mangara; but IMO you should just run 3-4 high impact cards against the field (Crusader, Brimaz, or some other tech-nasty.) When TNN first came out and the list went full on aggro with Serra Avengers and whatnot, that's the list I think is best poised; and it's just not putting up results because everyone's still stuck on Recruiter from the age of WR D&T