Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
Well actually you have an exact blue counterpart for almost all those decks:
Maverick becomes Bant aggro or Vial Bant
DnT becomes UW tempo
Jund becomes Brug.
So yeah, Bs (alongside Fow) is a good enough reason for splashing Blue as a third or fourth colour, and lots of players are already doing it generating new/different arhetypes ( obviously new doesn't necessarily imply better here).
Bant existed before maverick and is actually a worse deck becaue it's extremely unfocused. UW tempo is next to nonexistent and again worse than its big DnT brother, I have seen some BRUG decks on cockatrice but they are extremely greedy and all over the place.
Like you said, new isn't always better splashing blue for brainstorm where it isn't needed often makes your deck worse. Brainstorm is extremely powerful in the right deck. look at merfolk for example, they play all blue but don't run brainstorm. That's not what they want to be doing.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AEnesidem
Bant existed before maverick and is actually a worse deck becaue it's extremely unfocused. UW tempo is next to nonexistent and again worse than its big DnT brother, I have seen some BRUG decks on cockatrice but they are extremely greedy and all over the place.
Like you said, new isn't always better splashing blue for brainstorm where it isn't needed often makes your deck worse. Brainstorm is extremely powerful in the right deck. look at merfolk for example, they play all blue but don't run brainstorm. That's not what they want to be doing.
Agreed. But in some corner cases adding bs makes the deck more consistent and viable again. Just think about Burn,+4 Delver, +4 Bs +3 Ponder md, +some number of cheap taxing counterspells like Pierce, Fow in sb -> Ur burn, more versatile and reliable. Granted, the splah isn't there just for Bs, but it' the most gamebreking card among all the blue cards you'll use.
To sum it up: you need a hell of a good reason not to play 4x of the best card in the format.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
To sum it up: you need a hell of a good reason not to play 4x of the best card in the format.
Pretty much this. Valid reasons:
You're dirt poor (Burn, Affinity, LEDless Dredge)
You have a deck that preys on Blue (Merfolk, Jund)
You want to do unfair stuff without blue (Belcher, Dredge)
You love Goblins and will forever ask "Turn 1 Lackey. Have an answer?"
Frankly, if I wanted to troll a local meta, I would switch between Burn, Dredge, and Belcher. I would start with Dredge and condition them to run more yard hate... and then switch to belcher. After that, they'd want to run more free counters... and then I'd run burn as Burn is pretty good against a lot of non-combo decks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Anyone else think that GP Strausburg should quiet people down about Griselbrand?
A non-blue deck fought through both a Griselbrand and Emrakul attack. And that same archetype (D&T) beat the format's "Best Deck" (RUG Delver). Whether or not you chalk up the top 8 results to luck, the fact is that two Death and Taxes players had to fight through over a dozen rounds to break into the top 8, so I'm sure they faced off against a variety of decks.
The tools are there for non-Brainstorm decks to compete in this format. As unfair and dumb as Show and Tell is, it has been proven that you *don't* have to fight it on the stack to win.
I also think D&T's victory might provide a paradigm shift for Legacy. I see a parallel between it and Vintage's Workshops. Both decks beat on Blue decks by playing 'resistors' (e.g. Thalia, Rishadan Port // Lodestone Golem, Sphere of Resistance, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.) that provide ample time to beat down while the Blue deck searches for the appropriate answers. Both also cheat on mana costs via a broken enabler (Aether Vial // Mishra's Workshop). Obviously the power level is much lower in Legacy, and the strategy is arguably easier to hate out. But I'm not sure I would take the GP results so lightly if you're a combo or Blue player -- Wasteland and Aether Vial-centric decks might become a significant portion of the metagame.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Anyone else think that GP Strausburg should quiet people down about Griselbrand?
Also about Brainstorm. I'm clueless how people can still rant about "having a good reason not to play Brainstorm". We see time and time again that with correct metagaming and good deck construction you can always beat on blue, and this doesn't mean playing budget/glasscannon bullshit. When RUG and UW Stoneblade were the top dogs Maverick was beating on both of them until meta started shifting with Avacyn. A while later we got Abrupt Decay and Jund started beating on everything. Combo took care of that, now smart players beat the upcoming Combo vs RUG battle with Death&Taxes. This to me shows that you don't need a good reason not to play Brainstorm, you just need to have a desire to play the non-obvious or nonstreamlined deck that beats up on the rest.
Seriously I think the Brainstorm/blue ranters are doing this format a great disservice. First they alter the perception of new/newish players as if this is a broken imbalanced format, which is not, and scaring them that unless they can afford the blue decks their decks won't be viable. I seriously can't understand the hypocrisy of Drago especially while he is quoting me (misquoting only a part of my full response addressed to him specifically, to be exact) as if players like me are the reason why this format is facing possible future difficulties whereas this kind of false advertisement of the format actually is. My so called "elitist" response and hopes of good riddance was directed specifically towards players who viewed the format in such narrow mind and the ones who failed to grasp the vastness and the power level of this format. If you are still viewing this format as Brainstorm vs budget glass cannon shit please take your bullshit and leave, and also stop poisoning the community with these false doom mongering. There are those others who believe in variety and push decks like Death&Taxes to take down grand prix.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilb_o
Seriously I think the Brainstorm/blue ranters are doing this format a great disservice. First they alter the perception of new/newish players as if this is a broken imbalanced format, which is not, and scaring them that unless they can afford the blue decks their decks won't be viable. I seriously can't understand the hypocrisy of Drago especially while he is quoting me (misquoting only a part of my full response addressed to him specifically, to be exact) .
A- People can click on the quote if they have any doubts about the meaning of what you said.
B- I kept the discussion in B&R, which is well known for heated discussions.
C- Don't be upset that you made a mistake and that I pointed it out. Regardless of whether Brainstorm is in fact bad for the format, your attitude is bad for the format without a doubt.
Quote:
There are those others who believe in variety and push decks like Death&Taxes to take down grand prix.
Burn was a DTB once. Decks designed to hate on a specific meta along with some luck can win. What's your point exactly?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
A non-blue deck fought through both a Griselbrand and Emrakul attack. And that same archetype (D&T) beat the format's "Best Deck" (RUG Delver). Whether or not you chalk up the top 8 results to luck, the fact is that two Death and Taxes players had to fight through over a dozen rounds to break into the top 8, so I'm sure they faced off against a variety of decks.
Burn was a DTB once.
If D&T was winning many tournaments for months, you'd have a point. As it is, luck and preying on the meta == meta-adjusted deck can win until the meta hates them out. I don't think anyone was claiming that it's impossible for a non-blue deck to play Top 8, but I think what some are complaining about is the over-saturation of blue brainstorm decks.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10647
Out of the 16, 11 are Brainstorm decks. As it was said, you do need a good reason to not run Brainstorm. A GP where only 5 out of the Top 16 are non-brainstorm decks doesn't mean much.
As far as Griselbrand goes, this might keep people quiet about him finally. I think a lot of people forget about the disadvantage of SnT: you can bring something out of your own. This always creates the risk of the opposing player casting SnT getting screwed by troll tech. Also, SnT decks can be inconsistent at times.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Pretty much this. Valid reasons:
You're dirt poor (Burn, Affinity, LEDless Dredge)
You have a deck that preys on Blue (Merfolk, Jund)
You want to do unfair stuff without blue (Belcher, Dredge)
You love Goblins and will forever ask "Turn 1 Lackey. Have an answer?"
Upsides of Brainstorm:
Increases consistency or allows for more flexible slotting (but generally not both)
Allows you to dig for answers you don't have in hand
Downsides of Brainstorm:
Takes slots
Costs tempo
For some decks, those upsides outweigh the downsides. But running Brainstorm slows you down. The same way that Green Sun's Zenith is an amazing card that gives you massive flexibility and consistency but slows you down. So the MOST valid reason not to play Brainstorm is that if you're playing a deck that's already consistent, you're better off winning before your opponent has a chance to solidify and enact their gameplan.
As far as Kiblast's statement goes, the reason UR is a deck is not Brainstorm. Brainstorm has been available for what, 18 years now? UR is a deck because of Delver of Secrets. UR is a deck because a repeatable Lightning Bolt is well above the power curve. The fact that Brainstorm happens to fit in that color combination is just a bonus. But because you're jamming Brainstorm and Stifle and Wasteland into your deck, you need the taxing counters because burn's plan vs. combo is to just turn 3 them, whereas UR Delver can't consistently turn 3. Having counters just makes people feel more comfortable and in control. Which is understandable; I just audibled a blue splash in my Zoo 20 minutes before the SCG Open yesterday, even knowing it was a retarded decision. Having Brainstorm felt great; I could dig for burn and for Pridemage when I needed him or shuffle him away when I didn't. But at the same time, I bricked a match to Esper because I couldn't deal with a Batterskull; I had cut a QPM from the main and some more artifact hate from the board to fit counters. The straight Naya version I was running wrecked Esper, but I had shaved too many things fitting Brainstorm into the deck and actually LOST consistency.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SpikeyMikey
, but I had shaved too many things fitting Brainstorm into the deck and actually LOST consistency.
What? I don't understand.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
It took awhile for Maverick to be accepted as a "real" deck in the SCG Open circuit. I think with D&T winning a GP, more people will be willing to sleeve up their Aether Vials because it has truly proven that it's not just some fringe wacky non-blue strategy. This is good for the format, because it justifies peoples' choices to go against the grain. Aether Vial decks also tend to be less expensive to build than most Blue decks (at least currently.. expect all of those cards to start going up... :/)
I think there was a lot of cynicism and needless repetition of the claim that you basically play Blue, Combo, or you GTFO. SnT losing in such an epic fashion on camera in the top 8 to an army of 2/1 white weenies was a watershed moment for Legacy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
I think there was a lot of cynicism and needless repetition of the claim that you basically play Blue, Combo, or you GTFO. SnT losing in such an epic fashion on camera in the top 8 to an army of 2/1 white weenies was a watershed moment for Legacy.
And there is nothing wrong with that. I have no issues being wrong in this regard.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Is that footage archived somewhere for viewing, yet?
-Matt
Re: All B/R update speculation.
100% agree. I was afraid that if show&tell would show up too much all this Griselbanned crap would pick up momentum. This GP showed how amazing legacy is.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I have never seen a deck take two Emrakul hits AND a Griselbrand hit in a single game...and still come out victorious.
Umezawa's Jitte <3
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
What? I don't understand.
Well you have to ask yourself, what does Zoo want to do? What's its gameplan? The creatures don't match up well with the creatures in the midrange decks; Wild Nacatl is nowhere near as good when resolved as Stoneforge Mystic or Tombstalker or Confidant, etc. So it wants to win quickly. It doesn't want to get involved in protracted, grindy battles with a deck like Nic Fit or even something like Maverick. The longer the game goes on, the more they outclass you.
The same principle holds true for Delver decks - BUG, RUG or UR. The difference is how they approach the power level discrepancy of their creatures. Zoo just tries to jam lots of threats and win before an opponent would naturally gain advantage. The Delver tempo decks seek to disrupt the opponents mana and beat with Delver/Goose/'goyf while doing so. One focuses on killing within the window given by other decks, the other seeks to extend that window and win on its own time.
Now Brainstorm can help you continue to find relevant cards as the game goes on longer, helping you delay that inevitable shift of the game from "in your favor" to "in their favor". But you're also cutting relevant cards to fit Brainstorm. That means that when you're digging for a specific card, you're actually less likely to find it than you would be if you had another copy of that card instead of Brainstorm.
This is somewhat obvious if you consider how easy it is to find that card if Brainstorm IS that card instead of being Brainstorm. When you draw Brainstorm, instead of digging you 3 deep for that card, you just have it. Bam. Easy as pie. But you're not always digging for exactly the same card; that's why Brainstorm is good. It's flexible. Sometimes you need that Brainstorm to be Force of Will. Sometimes, you need it to be Swords to Plowshares. Sometimes, you're just using it to improve the overall power level of cards in your hand because you don't have a specific need at that time.
The amount of improvement you get out of Brainstorm varies. From deck to deck but even from Brainstorm to Brainstorm. If you have 2 lands in your hand you want to exchange for spells, but you Brainstorm into 3 lands, Brainstorm was worse than Obsessive Search. If you Brainstorm into 3 cards that are all very relevant to the game at hand, it's very close in power level to Ancestral Recall. With Zoo, the average improvement that I got out of Brainstorm was very minimal and not worth the inconsistency it caused in my early game aggression. On turn 2, I want to be dropping 2 1-drop creatures. Failling that, I want a 1 drop and a burn spell. But when I'm instead playing a turn 2 Brainstorm, I'm losing speed. Had that Brainstorm been either a burn spell or a creature, I'd have been better off. Now in this particular instance, Brainstorm was necessary anyway, because I needed it to consistently flip Delver.
That's what I mean when I say that Brainstorm cost me consistency. The mana bottleneck at the beginning of the game is exacerbated when you're using Brainstorm to sculpt your hand. You're slowing yourself down a turn. For some decks, that's ok. For some decks, that's even optimal. But people act like there is no cost to running Brainstorm, like every deck is better when it has Brainstorm, and that's just not the case. I think the reason people overestimate the strength of Brainstorm is because they use it as a crutch to overcome bad deckbuilding or poor playskill.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SpikeyMikey
Now Brainstorm can help you continue to find relevant cards as the game goes on longer, helping you delay that inevitable shift of the game from "in your favor" to "in their favor". But you're also cutting relevant cards to fit Brainstorm. That means that when you're digging for a specific card, you're actually less likely to find it than you would be if you had another copy of that card instead of Brainstorm.
Ah ok, I got it. I might argue that it may be worth using just because it can turn into a Recall sometimes. Also, protects stuff from discard.
Otherwise I agree. For redundant decks, Brainstorm isn't helpful.
I think Brainstorm is a fun card to play with. That's the best reason for not banning it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SpikeyMikey
Upsides of Brainstorm:
Increases consistency or allows for more flexible slotting (but generally not both)
Allows you to dig for answers you don't have in hand
Downsides of Brainstorm:
Takes slots
Costs tempo
For some decks, those upsides outweigh the downsides. But running Brainstorm slows you down. The same way that Green Sun's Zenith is an amazing card that gives you massive flexibility and consistency but slows you down. So the MOST valid reason not to play Brainstorm is that if you're playing a deck that's already consistent, you're better off winning before your opponent has a chance to solidify and enact their gameplan.
As far as Kiblast's statement goes, the reason UR is a deck is not Brainstorm. Brainstorm has been available for what, 18 years now? UR is a deck because of Delver of Secrets. UR is a deck because a repeatable Lightning Bolt is well above the power curve. The fact that Brainstorm happens to fit in that color combination is just a bonus.
As far as Delver is good and pushed Burn into the layer of tiers 1-1.5, one of Burn's problem was that it was inconsistent. Bs helps fixing inconsistencies, as you correctly stated. So how come Bs is just a ''bonus'' for UR burn? It's clearly one of the key components of the deck. Minimizes mulligans and improves starting hands in a deck which was incredibly depending on the initial hand to reach the goal of dealing 20 dmg by turn 4.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
C- Don't be upset that you made a mistake and that I pointed it out. Regardless of whether Brainstorm is in fact bad for the format, your attitude is bad for the format without a doubt.
No mistake there, if this elitist attitude - which is insisting on keeping the power level of Legacy intact and saying "gtfo and play Modern" to players who think this is too much, including you - is driving away new or old players still good riddance because the format is better left alone. You just tried, and still trying, to gather support by misquoted populism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
What's your point exactly?
That nothing is wrong with Legacy and you are trolling this forum and stirring up the community for no good reason.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I think Brainstorm is a fun card to play with. That's the best reason for not banning it.
I'd amend this statement to say that it's fun to play with, and it's also not particularly unfun to play against. That's the best reason not to ban it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilb_o
No mistake there, if this elitist attitude -
And yet you admit it. The fact that you consider a different opinion as "trolling" makes you the troll.
Keeping the quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
I'd amend this statement to say that it's fun to play with, and it's also not particularly unfun to play against. That's the best reason not to ban it.
- I agree.
