[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

for those playing bahra's r/w 75, what do you side in/out against a stoneblade deck like http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9656&d=255505&f=LE ?

i don't know if this is supposed to be a favorable matchup or not, but i tend to do poorly against this & uwr delver. i usually go for SOFI when SFM resolves. it's usually just like, i cast something and they bolt/stp it immediately. any pointers?

i boarded out 3x magus which might have been a mistake. a resolved magus can shut down their council's judgment and TNN if they only run 1 basic island

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Don't board out Magus, just board out Swords to Plowshares. They HAVE to have 3 basics out when Magus hits the field to avoid its effect. And they are playing 7 duals so they can easily have a dual heavy draw, I've won plenty of games against them with Magus of the Moon shutting them down completely or just enough.

I think it's a bad match up for mono white D&T, but positive for Gw with Choke and positive for Wr because of Magus and Imperial Recruiter being great.

Against most Stoneblade decks you usually side out StP since their creatures have extremely low value once they hit the battlefield, and you can't target TNN with StP. You side in RIP against DRS, Snappers and DTT so there's no need to kill them with StP.

It's also a very bad idea to overload the deck with noncreature spells while taking creatures out, you want to keep the ratio as close to 1 for 1 as possible. 1 noncreature spell for 1 noncreature spell, and there's 4 StP flots free for whatever SB hate you might want to bring in.

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Originally Posted by frenadol

Against most Stoneblade decks you usually side out StP since their creatures have extremely low value once they hit the battlefield, and you can't target TNN with StP. You side in RIP against DRS, Snappers and DTT so there's no need to kill them with StP.

It's also a very bad idea to overload the deck with noncreature spells while taking creatures out, you want to keep the ratio as close to 1 for 1 as possible. 1 noncreature spell for 1 noncreature spell, and there's 4 StP flots free for whatever SB hate you might want to bring in.

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Sorry, I don't get it: you side StP out against a deck which can:
- play a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker on 3rd turn (thx to Mystic)
- play a 3/1 unblockable protected from everything on 2nd turn (thx to Shaman)

?

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Sorry, I don't get it: you side StP out against a deck which can:
- play a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker on 3rd turn (thx to Mystic)
- play a 3/1 unblockable protected from everything on 2nd turn (thx to Shaman)?

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As you said, TNN is protected from everything. As far as i know, that includes StP too. :wink:
I could miss StP for getting rid of an early DRS in G1, but in G2 you play RiP anyway.
And StP on batterskull's token is sub-optimal, since your opponent can just pay 3 and replay Batterskull via SFM or hardcast.

I think he means StP can kill the enablers, Mystic and Shaman, not the actual threats they produce.

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Originally Posted by razvan

I think he means StP can kill the enablers, Mystic and Shaman, not the actual threats they produce.

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Of course I did, it seemed pretty obvious to me.
Imho siding out StP against Stoneforge decks doesn't make any sense.

Hey guys. I was curious and saw Abzan Deathblade. I noticed it's built like another hate bear deck but with 3 colours and plays Liliana. It has hard removal and discard to help hate. So here is my question. Why is it Death and Taxes (a mono-coloured deck) is doing better than something like Abzan Deathblade that seems to have more answers? I can't figure it out.

@brentane consistency and and better land base and not getting hit by wastelands.

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Originally Posted by endqwerty

@brentane consistency and and better land base and not getting hit by wastelands.

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Is that it? Just because D&T has more creatures and is hardly affected by wasteland? Seems like a few really small details. Interesting. Anyone want to add onto this? More information on this topic for me would be greatful.

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Of course I did, it seemed pretty obvious to me.
Imho siding out StP against Stoneforge decks doesn't make any sense.

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Your honest opinion is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Brentane

Is that it? Just because D&T has more creatures and is hardly affected by wasteland? Seems like a few really small details. Interesting. Anyone want to add onto this? More information on this topic for me would be greatful.

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Just look at the difference between the decks. Junk blade is a value deck, D&T is a prison deck. We have an insane taxing package of Rishadan Port, Thalia, Wasteland and Revoker. And we have Æther Vial to get us ahead while we deny mana. So we consistently execute a strong mana denial plan while the Junk deck just sits around and try to gain incremental advantages in a field full of decks with powerful tools such as Ponder and Brainstorm (Which the Junk deck doesn't play) that ensures consistency and drawing the right number of lands/spells.

So basically Junk blade is trying to grind but does it poorly and D&T is trying to shut down the opponent via mana denial and it does it consistently and quickly.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

Your honest opinion is wrong.






Just look at the difference between the decks. Junk blade is a value deck, D&T is a prison deck. We have an insane taxing package of Rishadan Port, Thalia, Wasteland and Revoker. And we have Æther Vial to get us ahead while we deny mana. So we consistently execute a strong mana denial plan while the Junk deck just sits around and try to gain incremental advantages in a field full of decks with powerful tools such as Ponder and Brainstorm (Which the Junk deck doesn't play) that ensures consistency and drawing the right number of lands/spells.

So basically Junk blade is trying to grind but does it poorly and D&T is trying to shut down the opponent via mana denial and it does it consistently and quickly.

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Alright, that helps a lot thank you.

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Originally Posted by Brentane

Hey guys. I was curious and saw Abzan Deathblade. I noticed it's built like another hate bear deck but with 3 colours and plays Liliana. It has hard removal and discard to help hate. So here is my question. Why is it Death and Taxes (a mono-coloured deck) is doing better than something like Abzan Deathblade that seems to have more answers? I can't figure it out.

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Totally different deck. It's also Junk, not Abzan Deathblade. DnT is a resource denial hatebear deck, and Junk is a midrange deck that plays hatebears for bad matchups, generally. Different styles of play.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Bahra

Just look at the difference between the decks. Junk blade is a value deck, D&T is a prison deck. We have an insane taxing package of Rishadan Port, Thalia, Wasteland and Revoker. And we have Æther Vial to get us ahead while we deny mana. So we consistently execute a strong mana denial plan while the Junk deck just sits around and try to gain incremental advantages in a field full of decks with powerful tools such as Ponder and Brainstorm (Which the Junk deck doesn't play) that ensures consistency and drawing the right number of lands/spells.

So basically Junk blade is trying to grind but does it poorly and D&T is trying to shut down the opponent via mana denial and it does it consistently and quickly.

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To add to that, while Junk might have a mana denial plan with KotR/Wasteland, they can't attack basics, which we can with Port. Vial is also strong because it provides uncounterable threats and instant speed against stuff like Terminus.

I'm by no means a good or experienced DnT player, but have picked up the deck and am playing the R/W splash Bahra is on, since I had recruiters already.

One thing I've been tinkering with is a 3/2 split of recruiter/magus, like Barook suggested, and the best upside I've found of this (and its a good one well known in painter lists) is the ability to recruiter chain against decks like miracles, ensuring you always have another threat if you get terminused in the late game. Having one on board, one in the hand, and one in the deck with an aether vial out is quite potent. I'm not sure if the miracles matchup alone warrants this, however, as I may just be playing less than optimally if it gets to this point. 3 recruiters also seems better against a slew of decks that don't necessarily care about Magus, I.e. any deck with Lightning Bolt. I realize having Mother of Runes changes this, but they're not always active on board.

Also, the pseudo-mirror against mono white seems abysmal, though again I'm not super familiar with it. I know councils judgement can hit Mom and anything else, but if the mirror is a concern, would anyone advocate increasing the number of judgements or perhaps playing something like Sudden Shock?

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Originally Posted by Bahra

Your honest opinion is wrong.

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Or maybe YOU are wrong. Who knows for sure?

Anyway, statements like the one I quoted are just useless and arrogant, and you should avoid them if you don't wanna start a flame.

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Sorry, I don't get it: you side StP out against a deck which can:
- play a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker on 3rd turn (thx to Mystic)
- play a 3/1 unblockable protected from everything on 2nd turn (thx to Shaman)

?

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Scenario 1: They play SFM fetching Jitte. You StP killing the SFM. Eh, yeah. No sane Stoneblade player will fetch a turn 2 Batterskull against Death and Taxes unless they already have Jitte in hand.
Scenario 2: They play turn 1 DRS. You StP it ipso facto while having stuff like Vial or Mom in hand. Unless you're on the play without a 1 drop (not very common) I completely fail to see the value in that. Especially when you have 2+ RIPs coming out form the sideboard. Turn 2 True Name Nemesis isn't even that threatening unless they equip it with a Jitte. If you stop the Jitte you can race it just fine. And Jitte is something you cannot stop with a Swords to Plowshares. Neither is TNN.

Sorry but I'm not seeing how can StP be good against Esper/WUR Stoneblade at all. Unless the opponent plays Monastery Mentor and is loaded with sideboard Containment Priests.

It seems that you're worrying about the wrong cards those enablers can power out. SFM fetches Jitte which can win the game by itself, Batterskull is pretty useless against DnT. DRS can power out a turn 2 Liliana which is the main reason for killing DRS against Jund, but TNN isn't something to worry about at all.

Also, you need many of the sideboard cards like RIP, C. Judgment, Disenchant, Choke if you play green, etc. What are you gonna side out if you want to keep those StPs? 4+ creatures? I bet that's gonna work wonders.

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Originally Posted by frenadol

Scenario 1: They play SFM fetching Jitte. You StP killing the SFM. Eh, yeah. No sane Stoneblade player will fetch a turn 2 Batterskull against Death and Taxes unless they already have Jitte in hand.
Scenario 2: They play turn 1 DRS. You StP it ipso facto while having stuff like Vial or Mom in hand. Unless you're on the play without a 1 drop (not very common) I completely fail to see the value in that. Especially when you have 2+ RIPs coming out form the sideboard. Turn 2 True Name Nemesis isn't even that threatening unless they equip it with a Jitte. If you stop the Jitte you can race it just fine. And Jitte is something you cannot stop with a Swords to Plowshares. Neither is TNN.

Sorry but I'm not seeing how can StP be good against Esper/WUR Stoneblade at all. Unless the opponent plays Monastery Mentor and is loaded with sideboard Containment Priests.

It seems that you're worrying about the wrong cards those enablers can power out. SFM fetches Jitte which can win the game by itself, Batterskull is pretty useless against DnT. DRS can power out a turn 2 Liliana which is the main reason for killing DRS against Jund, but TNN isn't something to worry about at all.

Also, you need many of the sideboard cards like RIP, C. Judgment, Disenchant, Choke if you play green, etc. What are you gonna side out if you want to keep those StPs? 4+ creatures? I bet that's gonna work wonders.

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Well, i agree with almost everything you said...but saying TNN isn't a real threat seems a bit exagerated to me: this card can be a real pain in the ass, even if not equiped (if equpiped soon enough you've lost 90% of the time) and is one of the reason why playing Council's Judgment is really worth it in D&T.
But sure: StP against Esper/UWR Stoneblade sucks indeed.

I feel like if we're careful with sofi, our matchup against tnn decks is pretty positive. That and the backup plan or jitte/batterskull a flier. Overall, we provide decks that are playing a 1uu creature a hard to answer threat that can race true-name. Of course jitte witb counters on a tnn is near impossible to beat, but thats just the way jitte is.

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Originally Posted by Darkgobs

Well, i agree with almost everything you said...but saying TNN isn't a real threat seems a bit exagerated to me: this card can be a real pain in the ass, even if not equiped (if equpiped soon enough you've lost 90% of the time) and is one of the reason why playing Council's Judgment is really worth it in D&T.
But sure: StP against Esper/UWR Stoneblade sucks indeed.

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Playing Council's Judgment is not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

Playing Council's Judgment is not worth it.

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Just making sure, but did you just saying playing council judgment is not worth it in DnT