All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Yep. Treasure Cruise is fine. Great, amazing, perfect when you got it. But anyone else looking at you when you are using it knows that shit ain't right. Just like cocaine.

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Are we really arguing that a situational draw engine for blue deck is now broken? Can i remember everyone that this card see about a third the play that BS does, and half Ponder's one? Shall i remember that the decks that are using it are all-in decks that use it to refill hands for bolts, or decks which have no other card advantage engines like Countertop? The only effective thing TC did was killing BUG cascade for UR delver. Good fucking riddance. And if you're seeing a lot of TCs is probably because UR delver is one of the cheapest, but still good, legacy decks. God may save us from all those poor plebians that came to ruin our format.

We'll talk when the card see play 24+ copies for T8 on average for 3 years at least, cause that's the stnadard BS has used us to.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Are we really arguing that a situational draw engine for blue deck is now broken? Can i remember everyone that this card see about a third the play that BS does, and half Ponder's one? Shall i remember that the decks that are using it are all-in decks that use it to refill hands for bolts, or decks which have no other card advantage engines like Countertop? The only effective thing TC did was killing BUG cascade for UR delver. Good fucking riddance. And if you're seeing a lot of TCs is probably because UR delver is one of the cheapest, but still good, legacy decks. God may save us from all those poor plebians that came to ruin our format.

We'll talk when the card see play 24+ copies for T8 on average for 3 years at least, cause that's the stnadard BS has used us to.

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Agreed. As far as I'm concerned before anything gets banned it needs to pass the "better than brainstorm" test, which TC fails miserably.

I think cards shouldn't be printed if it's obvious that they won't be useful in eternal formats. Otherwise they will only be playable for a year or two

The problem with Treasure Cruise is that we're very early in its cycle at this point. People have had only 10 weeks to brew with it and the first list that it powered was the obvious one, a list that will likely be optimized as people further develop it.

The odds are very good that Treasure Cruise's penetration in the meta will increase as other lists that can make good use of it figure out how to incorporate it for the sheer power of draw 3 for :u: on turn 3 or later. It's not like there aren't a ton of lists that fill the bin fast and could optimize to fill it a little faster for that kind of power.

I'm guessing that by this time next year the blue shell is widely seen as Brainstorm, Force of Will, Ponder and either Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time depending on the velocity of the list in question.

Since the other thread was closed, I'm going to post here:

As far as format diversity is concerned, the "Big 3" suppressors of the format are:

- Delver
- Terminus
- Show & Tell

If you want a more diverse format, ban at least Brainstorm and Delver.

- Delver has already proven in other formats that it's viable on the basis of shitty cantrips (banning Brainstorm alone would do nothing) and its the starting point where blue truely went out of control. The only way to really make it go away would be a ban, forcing people to look at their Delver shells which they can't ride to victory on the back of 1 mana 3/2s anymore. "Blue shell + Delver + the most powerful in-color threats and removal spells of choice"-deck without its eponym would have to diversify its threats alot more.

- The absence of Brainstorm would weaken the "blue shell", but also hit Miracles (since they can't shuffle chaff away/set up naturally drawn miracles) and S&T (can't trade junk for gas anymore), being a nerf to said strategies without downright killing them.

TC ban is reasonable as well. Ponder and DTT are more debatable.

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Originally Posted by Barook

- The absence of Brainstorm would weaken the "blue shell"

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I hate this argument, not only because it incorrectly assumes there is some prototypical "shell" Blue decks are built around. If your definition of "shell" is Fetches and Brainstorms, you are playing the wrong game.

Making the format weaker across the board because it panders to niche strategies (which still put up regular, winning results!) is a flawed idea.

Unban something, ignore the people complaining about Cruise like we ignored the people complaining about TNN, and play some Magic.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Since the other thread was closed, I'm going to post here:

As far as format diversity is concerned, the "Big 3" suppressors of the format are:

- Delver
- Terminus
- Show & Tell

If you want a more diverse format, ban at least Brainstorm and Delver.

- Delver has already proven in other formats that it's viable on the basis of shitty cantrips (banning Brainstorm alone would do nothing) and its the starting point where blue truely went out of control. The only way to really make it go away would be a ban, forcing people to look at their Delver shells which they can't ride to victory on the back of 1 mana 3/2s anymore. "Blue shell + Delver + the most powerful in-color threats and removal spells of choice"-deck without its eponym would have to diversify its threats alot more.

- The absence of Brainstorm would weaken the "blue shell", but also hit Miracles (since they can't shuffle chaff away/set up naturally drawn miracles) and S&T (can't trade junk for gas anymore), being a nerf to said strategies without downright killing them.

TC ban is reasonable as well. Ponder and DTT are more debatable.

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WTF did I just read. You know, we are talking about Legacy, mate.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

To elaborate on my previous post, lets say 75% of the field runs the classic 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force, 8 Fetches, 4 Duals. Thats 24/60*3/4 or 30% according to my formula. Now, lets say 50% of the meta are running 4 Delver 4 Daze 4 Cruise and 4 wasteland in addition to that shell. Thats 40/60*1/2 or 33.3_%.

Not wholly accurate again, just an example of what im talking bout

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From the now closed poll.

Basically, this is why Delver should be banned. Decks based around the flying bugman have a core that takes up most of the deck and since the deck takes up a good chunk of the metagame as evidenced by GP day 2 decks, that core itself has a higher penetration in the meta.

Maybe archiving this one and opening up the other one would be more beneficial as demonstrated by the results that were coming out of the new poll. We've had enough of the same circular discussions around brainstorm. An updated poll would give a fresh spin on the discussion imo.

Edit: I voted for Delver on the other poll because of the shitloads of different variations of Delver decks all over the place. And as opposed to Brainstorm, which has a larger format saturation but promotes different strategies and entirely different archetypes, Delver decks are just different colors of the same shit. All of the Delver decks are playing the same game with tactical variations.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

I hate this argument, not only because it incorrectly assumes there is some prototypical "shell" Blue decks are built around. If your definition of "shell" is Fetches and Brainstorms, you are playing the wrong game.

Making the format weaker across the board because it panders to niche strategies (which still put up regular, winning results!) is a flawed idea.

Unban something, ignore the people complaining about Cruise like we ignored the people complaining about TNN, and play some Magic.

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What would you unban that (a) powers up the format (b) doesn't go in a deck with BS/FoW/Ponder + fetches? I mean I miss SotF too but it isn't like it never got played with Tropicals.

I don't think there's anything incorrect about assuming there's a "Blue shell" - it is clear just looking at the decks putting up the most numbers and enjoying the most success right now that decks with Islands are carting around 12 - 20 of the same cards. Compare to other colors, where playing Plains does not guarantee the inclusion of D&T staples, or playing Green does not mandate an "Elf shell" of any kind - there are decks, and then there are Blue-based decks.

Look at how people are changing tactics. A few years ago people would have dismissed maindecking REBs as incredibly poor; however it's starting to become more and more common to see nonzero REB/Pyroblast in the main and more on the side. I'm not citing sources, we're all grown-ups, Google your own damn Legacy top 8 results over a period of time, there are dozens of websites for that. If a bulk of your matches are going to be X-color Delver, Terminus, S&T, Stoneblade, or any given Brainstorm-driven deck, then AFAIC that's a fine tactic; I've always looked at the Elemental Blasts as being only as limited as cards like Swords to Plowshares. They address a single type of card in a cheap and specific way, and their playability is entirely determined by the prevalence of the targeted card type/card color.

I mean at what point does such a narrow strategy's viability beg the question of where the real problems are in the format? Yeah, we all come here to play Big Kid Spells, I won't argue that, but are we really interested in having decks that are upwards of 50% alike in business spells that facilitate slightly-different win conditions? That sounds an awful lot like Vintage. "Fully powered" lists and all that shit; playing off-color Moxen > not playing all of them, full set of Power because who doesn't want that extra turn and 3 cards, then your actual matchup comes down to like 8 cards difference (oh look, Oath of Druids in the main, why this pile is COMPLETELY different from the last fully powered deck I played against, trololol)

What I don't get: If Brainstorm becomes banned, many people will abandon the Legacy format, because Legacy is a format of passion. People love their decks. They propably spent thousands of dollars on their beloved decks. If my deck (yea I have only 1 deck and I think this is the norm) would become unplayable because of Bannings, I would rather sell my cards and quit, then building another deck. Legacy lives because it gets medial attention through SCG and because people can play their beloved decks. Kill Brainstorm and you kill Legacy. Thats it.

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Originally Posted by Higgs

Maybe archiving this one and opening up the other one would be more beneficial as demonstrated by the results that were coming out of the new poll. We've had enough of the same circular discussions around brainstorm. An updated poll would give a fresh spin on the discussion imo.

Edit: I voted for Delver on the other poll because of the shitloads of different variations of Delver decks all over the place. And as opposed to Brainstorm, which has a larger format saturation but promotes different strategies and entirely different archetypes, Delver decks are just different colors of the same shit. All of the Delver decks are playing the same game with tactical variations.

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My point exactly: just trying to put some numbers behind it. While Brainstorm is very popular and rightly so, one must also look at the percentage of cores within the meta and how much space that core takes up within each deck. Then you aim for the card that is almost exclusive to that core (in this case, Delver) if the core itself has a high presence.

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

Legacy lives because it gets medial attention through SCG and because people can play their beloved decks. Kill Brainstorm and you kill Legacy. Thats it.

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Well, good thing that SCG just killed the vast majority of their Legacy Opens, including coverage.

And I believe the number of people who would actually quit the format over Brainstorm is vastly exaggerated. Just because they say so on an internet forum doesn't mean they would actually do it, especially after thousands of dollars invested.

I could also claim that I'd dance naked in the streets when Brainstorm gets banned, but that doesn't mean I'd actually do it.

God, I feel so vindicated by the other poll. Delver is the biggest issue with the format right now. Take it out, blue decks get slower, which lets the other colors compete. Blue still has card selection, but green/black have raw power. They just need time to get there, and delver is keeping them from having that time.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Well, good thing that SCG just killed the vast majority of their Legacy Opens, including coverage.

And I believe the number of people who would actually quit the format over Brainstorm is vastly exaggerated. Just because they say so on an internet forum doesn't mean they would actually do it, especially after thousands of dollars invested.

I could also claim that I'd dance naked in the streets when Brainstorm gets banned, but that doesn't mean I'd actually do it.

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Might be good for a distraction: we could push Legacy while SCG amd WotC are laughing!

Regardless of bans or unbans, Ill still play this format because I love playing it.

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

What I don't get: If Brainstorm becomes banned, many people will abandon the Legacy format, because Legacy is a format of passion. People love their decks. They propably spent thousands of dollars on their beloved decks. If my deck (yea I have only 1 deck and I think this is the norm) would become unplayable because of Bannings, I would rather sell my cards and quit, then building another deck. Legacy lives because it gets medial attention through SCG and because people can play their beloved decks. Kill Brainstorm and you kill Legacy. Thats it.

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I don't think popularity should ever take precedence over balancing though.
Otherwise please unban the entire P9. Everyone loves them! And coincidently I already own half of them.
You can't afford the ensuing metagame? Go play modern. :laugh:
(attention: this is NOT a serious suggestion)

I must admit that I voted Delver in the closed poll/thread mostly because imo all double-faced cards are hideous atrocities that shouldn't exist to begin with.
Be it Delver of Secrets or Reckless Waif. I don't want to see any of them ever again.
Obviously this isn't the kind of input we should base a serious discussion on either. People vote on public polls for stupid reasons.

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Originally Posted by why

I think that if I was in charge of the format, I'd ban fetchlands and wasteland.

I don't really think you can ban an iconic card like Brainstorm. It is the defining card of legacy. I think you want to weaken the blue decks, in general, overall. Banning fetchlands weakens Brainstorm greatly and balances the format in that way.

You also reduce the amount of shuffling. Shuffling is my least favorite thing in magic. Fetchlands just put minute long breaks at inopportune points in the game.

Banning fetchlands does make the mana worse. As a result I like banning Wasteland, since it feels less necessary to punish greedy manabases.

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Because Wastes isn't iconic at all. #Pillaroftheformat #GoPlayModern #Justplayit #Stopwhine #SomethingnonsensicalaboutVintage

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Originally Posted by Sylphnir

I must admit that I voted Delver in the closed poll/thread mostly because imo all double-faced cards are hideous atrocities that shouldn't exist to begin with.
Be it Delver of Secrets or Reckless Waif. I don't want to see any of them ever again.
Obviously this isn't the kind of input we should base a serious discussion on either. People vote on public polls for stupid reasons.

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Yep, even if Delver was 1/1 for three that transforms into 2/2 banding, I'd wanted it to never exist along with the other transfrom cards. They are woefully bad design choice and the last thing I'd ever imagine in non-Un MtG. Part of what makes a card a card game was lost when the easily-distinguished-by-different-backsides emerged.
Also, that thread is closed? Hurry up, lets make a new one... :)

I dislike the recuring joke of "go play Modern". In fact the more I think about it, the more reasonable idea it is.
Legacy is one of the most stale formats, if not the most stale one (I don't play Vintage, as I find it silly to own €50k in cards just to play one eight-men four-rounder per year; I simply don't believe that the fun with P9andStuff is worthy the price, but to each his own), ok, back on topic: as Legacy is the most stale/staticstationary format for quite obvious reasons (blue dominance, access to most powerful cards and thus a need to use the most powerful strategies, no rotations), it's really strange to expect that anything else than the best will be the best. (Tautology much?)

So anyone expecting that he'll experience a dynamic format there where is only the best and most efficient strategy allowed, is simply delusional. Really, the "go play Modern" is quite a solid advice. In fact it's not even enough, as "go play Limited" would be far more appropriate advice. That's where there's no staleness at all. An advantage: you don't even need to own any cards.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Yep, even if Delver was 1/1 for three that transforms into 2/2 banding, I'd wanted it to never exist along with the other transfrom cards. They are woefully bad design choice and the last thing I'd ever imagine in non-Un MtG. Part of what makes a card a card game was lost when the easily-distinguished-by-different-backsides emerged.
Also, that thread is closed? Hurry up, lets make a new one... :)

I dislike the recuring joke of "go play Modern". In fact the more I think about it, the more reasonable idea it is.
Legacy is one of the most stale formats, if not the most stale one (I don't play Vintage, as I find it silly to own €50k in cards just to play one eight-men four-rounder per year; I simply don't believe that the fun with P9andStuff is worthy the price, but to each his own), ok, back on topic: as Legacy is the most stale/staticstationary format for quite obvious reasons (blue dominance, access to most powerful cards and thus a need to use the most powerful strategies, no rotations), it's really strange to expect that anything else than the best will be the best. (Tautology much?)

So anyone expecting that he'll experience a dynamic format there where is only the best and most efficient strategy allowed, is simply delusional. Really, the "go play Modern" is quite a solid advice. In fact it's not even enough, as "go play Limited" would be far more appropriate advice. That's where there's no staleness at all. An advantage: you don't even need to own any cards.

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Not to defend Delver too much (since I want it axed), but the DFCs checklist cards is actually a pretty good solution. Especially since, if you're spending $3k on a UWR Delver list, you can afford to pay for altered checklist cards that actually look like Delvers.

Modern is a more stale format than Legacy, so I really wouldn't suggest that... but Limited is great, and if you don't like Legacy but have the cash, building a cube is a great option.

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Originally Posted by why

I don't really think you can ban an iconic card like Brainstorm. It is the defining card of legacy.

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The 10 beta dual lands are the defining cards of Legacy.

I'd contend it's fetchlands, as what would brainstorm and duals be without all that shuffling.

Duals would remain awesome.

My point is I'd be content with a shockland-only legacy, I doubt the meta would change significantly. Whereas fetches are what makes or breaks decks.

I'd just play U/R all day.

Fetches are more powerful than duals, that much should be obvious. There's a reason no multicolor deck plays 0 fetch lands. Without fetches, you'd just have to play duals and shocks and Seachrome Coasts and shit.

And make wasteland and price ridiculous. Also a shockland only legacy would be horrid. Burn and UR would be ridiculous

Part of legacy is a high power level, even signing up to play with design "mistakes." Banning duals or fetches would be asinine at best.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Part of legacy is a high power level, even signing up to play with design "mistakes." Banning duals or fetches would be asinine at best.

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And banning duals and fetches would make it not Legacy, which was essentially envisioned as a pseudo-Vintage with no restricted cards but access to much of the power.

The wise thing to do would be to just take a serious look at which cards are head and heels above the power level of the format and ban those cards. Brainstorm fits the definition clearly. It's the best card in Legacy and almost nobody disputes that, which is another indicator that it's well above the power level of the format.

Are there any other cards that fuel broken strategies enough to see play in 70% of the winning lists at the end of long tournaments? I guess that depends on whether you think Force of Will would still be a 70% card also if Brainstorm was banned. If so then Force of Will should go also. I don't think any other blue card is going to rival those two in terms of penetration of the successful lists in the format.

It's possible that Treasure Cruise would in the absence of Brainstorm and Force of Will but probably unlikely. Same thing for Ponder.

Delver of Secrets is out of color, which in combination with the blue shell makes it very over-powered. It is not anything like a 70% card though and if you banned Brainstorm and possibly Force of Will Delver's penetration of the successful lists would definitely decline in the aftermath.

This isn't actually a hard thing to figure out at this point. All WotC needs to do is look at the successful lists over the last 3 years or so. What they'll see is what we all see on a regular basis: Brainstorm and Force of Will are in approximately 70% of the lists that sit at the top tables at the end of the day.

Think about it.

70% is 70%. It's kind of an indefensible number in a competition that has close to 30,000 cards available.

Delver is in the correct color just undercosted.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Delver is in the correct color just undercosted.

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Well, had it been black and intimidate instead of flying, would've made a lot more sense as a "mad scientist" who sacrifice everything for power. But it had to be blue because reasons. Just like Snapcaster (which however is a lot more blue than red flavorfully but in game- terms should've totally been red because it use a red-slice of the pie, not blue.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Well, had it been black and intimidate instead of flying, would've made a lot more sense as a "mad scientist" who sacrifice everything for power. But it had to be blue because reasons. Just like Snapcaster (which however is a lot more blue than red flavorfully but in game- terms should've totally been red because it use a red-slice of the pie, not blue.

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Its about transformation, just like Polymorhp effects. Blue is also about science and experimenting, like all the blue zombies from innistrad are stiched togther corpses and animated not by magic really but with science.

I love it that we are all wanting to protect the duels and brainstorms, arguing to keep it, while very slowly the format is heading towards a cliff. After scg drops support, what would Legacy be? Yes, like Vintage, it will continue. Maybe even thrive a little. But, with the restrictions of reprints, it will always, only head towards "non-growth."

I would rather Legacy exist with drastic measures such as restricting duels or banning brainstorms or whatever it takes, bringing in new players, expanding the market, than to have it shrivel. Seriously, it is heading towards being just another nitch player base. Wouldn't you rather have wotc support it more?

But instead, we are all trying to protect the status quo.

Yes, I'm invested in Legacy staples. Yes, I'll lose money if they reprint, or drastically change the landscape.

I guess my point is, rather than arguing against one another, we should JOIN together for something to save Legacy, make it thrive, make it even more popular than Standard.
Let's start a poll, a pleading of our case to wotc. Or something.

Maybe, I'm just dreaming.

*stepping down from soap box*

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

This isn't actually a hard thing to figure out at this point. All WotC needs to do is look at the successful lists over the last 3 years or so. What they'll see is what we all see on a regular basis: Brainstorm and Force of Will are in approximately 70% of the lists that sit at the top tables at the end of the day.

Think about it.

70% is 70%. It's kind of an indefensible number in a competition that has close to 30,000 cards available.

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I've already thought about this, thank you very much, and it's easily defensible. Brainstorm and Force of Will are only 2 playsets (8 cards) out of 60 in each deck, which means in truth they as a shell comprise about 13.33_% of each deck, which means they take up about 9.33_% of the total meta even though they are present in 70% of the lists.

Now take the very base of the Delver of Secrets shell, which commonly includes Ponder, Daze and Wasteland in addition to Delver, Force, and Brainstorm. That's 6 playsets (24 cards) out of 60 in each deck, which means the Delver shell makes up about 40% of each deck, which means if (IF) Delver decks just make up 40% of the meta, the shell takes up about 16% of the total meta.

Just to so I can actually put numbers behind this, let's use The Council, shall we?

http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcar...s=11&anio=2014

http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...&fecha=2014-11

Out of 231 decks of at least 60 cards each (13860 cards total), 1693 of those cards are Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will. That's ~12.22% of the meta composed of the three most popular cards.

Then take the aforementioned Delver shell with Delver, Wasteland, and Daze in addition to those three cards. That's 2620 cards or ~18.90% of the meta with cards in the Delver shell.

And let's not get started on how a lot of those cards on the top 20 are present in UR Delver specifically.

The truth is there in the data provide: that despite Brainstorm having a high presence as a card, Delver-tempo has a high presence as an archetype. Just need to interpret the data correctly instead of taking it at face value.

1. As asinine as the Reserve list is, Wizards will never break it because they don't care about Legacy. So the "reprints" argument isn't worth talking about, we just have to accept $2k manabases.
2. SCG won't listen to Legacy players, hundreds of comments on the new Open series article were expressing dislike and hatred for this change and SCG's official response was "should've spent more money on Legacy, go fuck yourself." They're not changing (despite it again being an asinine decision) because Standard is more profitable. So there's no point in arguing that.
3. Our format is going to die eventually due to the business decisions of Wizards and SCG combined. So the only thing left to talk about IS maintaining the status quo and making sure Legacy is still competitive, decently balanced, and fun to play. If Brainstorm is not breaking any of those rules then the point is moot. It's like doctors knowing someone is dying and using resources trying to make them comfortable so they can spend their last few days in peace or something. We want to remember the format as the best competitive format of Magic, not some broken mess.

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Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled

1. As asinine as the Reserve list is, Wizards will never break it because they don't care about Legacy. So the "reprints" argument isn't worth talking about, we just have to accept $2k manabases.
2. SCG won't listen to Legacy players, hundreds of comments on the new Open series article were expressing dislike and hatred for this change and SCG's official response was "should've spent more money on Legacy, go fuck yourself." They're not changing (despite it again being an asinine decision) because Standard is more profitable. So there's no point in arguing that.
3. Our format is going to die eventually due to the business decisions of Wizards and SCG combined. So the only thing left to talk about IS maintaining the status quo and making sure Legacy is still competitive, decently balanced, and fun to play. If Brainstorm is not breaking any of those rules then the point is moot. It's like doctors knowing someone is dying and using resources trying to make them comfortable so they can spend their last few days in peace or something. We want to remember the format as the best competitive format of Magic, not some broken mess.

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Yes, but the odds are that without Brainstorm and Force of Will we'd have dozens of new playable cards in the format, not "new" new cards, old ones that are perfectly good and even compare quite well to the strength of the format, they just can't stand up to Brainstorm and Force of Will.

Why is Counterspell never played as a set in Legacy despite being too overpowered for Modern? Because having to wait until turn 2 (turn 2! gasp!!!) is just not acceptable in a format in which whatever the opponent is trying to do to you on turn 2 is going to be backed up by one of the two most commonly played cards in Legacy in Force of Will. Remove Force of Will from the format and Counterspell's value goes back up some. It was never bad in the first place it just couldn't compete with Force of Will as *the* hard counter in the format.

Force of Will invalidates Counterspell as a hard counter except in a slow control list. It invalidates Spell Blast and Power Sink and all the one mana situational spells. It's presence as a 4-of in most successful lists at the top of the meta and it's synergy with Brainstorm makes many successful lists 52 card lists with 8 no-brainer adds.

Why is Preordain almost never played in Legacy? Because Brainstorm (and Ponder) are better and Brainstorm is broken as hell so why would you ever play Preordain over it? Why is Impulse never played in Legacy despite being the deepest dig you can get in an instant for 2 mana without delve? Because Brainstorm is broken... Why is Diabolic Vision never played in Legacy despite being the deepest dig you can get for 2 mana overall? Because Brainstorm is broken...

Brainstorm invalidates about a dozen very playable useful cards all by itself. As an instant draw 3 with it's other utility it's just much better than anything else at what it does. You can't justify playing anything else over it in that type of slot and so the format becomes 56 for the vast majority of successful lists and 52 cards for most of those lists as well.

Tarmogoyf doesn't do this. People don't *have* to play green for Tarmogoyf, they have a choice in the matter. Deathrite Shaman doesn't do this. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't do this. Grim Lavamancer didn't do this when he was a hot creature. Dark Confidant didn't do this. All of them were eminently splashable power cards but none of them forced the choice the way Brainstorm and Force of Will do.

Swords to Plowshares doesn't do this. Lightning Bolt doesn't do this. Only two cards do this in the entire Legacy meta - Force of Will and Brainstorm. They're the herder that drives everything else into the sheep pen, year after year.

People have the wrong perspective on what would happen if Brainstorm and Force of Will were banned. Everybody says "combo will run rampant! The meta will be ruined!" I have a different perspective born of playing in a meta a long time ago when 4 channel and 4 fireball were sitting in a lot of lists waiting for black lotus and moxes and land to create turn 1 wins. That perspective is "it just doesn't happen like that most of the time." Yeah, you lose some early games to combo, maybe 10% of them (maybe, not a lot more than that). But the hate that Force of Will and Brainstorm suppress right now will also be there.

Storm combo hates Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. It can't stand land destruction at all. Not many lands in those lists and when they lose one to a Sinkhole they fold like a wet noodle, particularly after the turn 1 Thoughtseize blew up their pretty hand. All the Stompy lists and the Dark Ritual lists are suppressed heavily by the blue shell. They can't set up their locks and blitzes reliably because all it takes is one forced spell to set them back and then what they're trying to do just isn't good enough against what the blue shell is trying to do.

If we lost Force of Will and Brainstorm the meta would go wide open again. The best lists in the end would still be blue-based, just like they were in the mid-90's but they wouldn't be the only choice anybody with half a brain made in a large competition. And they'd have lists they just hated out there that were just a bit less consistent than them, another factor making the meta choices more interesting again.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The wise thing to do would be to just take a serious look at which cards are head and heels above the power level of the format and ban those cards. Brainstorm fits the definition clearly. It's the best card in Legacy and almost nobody disputes that, which is another indicator that it's well above the power level of the format.

Are there any other cards that fuel broken strategies enough to see play in 70% of the winning lists at the end of long tournaments? I guess that depends on whether you think Force of Will would still be a 70% card also if Brainstorm was banned. If so then Force of Will should go also.

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Force of Will is incredibly bad card.
Look, it's a counterspell. For either five mana or another card. A counterspell. In blue. One that hymns the caster 95 % of time.
If DCI bans it, they may ban Chimney Imp just as well.

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Originally Posted by mikeshimoji

I love it that we are all wanting to protect the duels and brainstorms, arguing to keep it, while very slowly the format is heading towards a cliff. After scg drops support, what would Legacy be? Yes, like Vintage, it will continue. Maybe even thrive a little. But, with the restrictions of reprints, it will always, only head towards "non-growth."

I would rather Legacy exist with drastic measures such as restricting duels or banning brainstorms or whatever it takes, bringing in new players, expanding the market, than to have it shrivel. Seriously, it is heading towards being just another nitch player base. Wouldn't you rather have wotc support it more?

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I don't care how many people worldwide play Legacy. Heck, I don't care how many people play Magic at all. I play my one deck I own, in a lgs I visit, with people that go there after their job is over so that we have fun during four rounds of swiss. No amount of people (not) playing our format changes anything about my experience. I simply don't give a smallest frog about a randoms playing in Buenos Aires. Neither SCG grinders. Nor anyone else.
What I care about, though, is the nature of my format. So turn it into a ble shitfest like the last three years, or vivisect it like you advice, and I'm out. Without much pathos - no "I'm out, selling my stuff, ppl look up my ebay!" -, but I simply stop caring like I stopped caring about Duck Tales back in 1992.
So pardon me, but I won't join you in an effort to turn Legacy into Format:Awkward.

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Why is Counterspell never played as a set in Legacy despite being too overpowered for Modern? Because having to wait until turn 2 (turn 2! gasp!!!) is just not acceptable in a format in which whatever the opponent is trying to do to you on turn 2 is going to be backed up by one of the two most commonly played cards in Legacy in Force of Will. Remove Force of Will from the format and Counterspell's value goes back up some. It was never bad in the first place it just couldn't compete with Force of Will as *the* hard counter in the format.

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Obvious Storm players are obvious.

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Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled

1. As asinine as the Reserve list is, Wizards will never break it because they don't care about Legacy. So the "reprints" argument isn't worth talking about, we just have to accept $2k manabases.
2. SCG won't listen to Legacy players, hundreds of comments on the new Open series article were expressing dislike and hatred for this change and SCG's official response was "should've spent more money on Legacy, go fuck yourself." They're not changing (despite it again being an asinine decision) because Standard is more profitable. So there's no point in arguing that.
3. Our format is going to die eventually due to the business decisions of Wizards and SCG combined. So the only thing left to talk about IS maintaining the status quo and making sure Legacy is still competitive, decently balanced, and fun to play. If Brainstorm is not breaking any of those rules then the point is moot. It's like doctors knowing someone is dying and using resources trying to make them comfortable so they can spend their last few days in peace or something. We want to remember the format as the best competitive format of Magic, not some broken mess.

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If They don't listen to us, why are we arguing on a thread?

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Force of Will is incredibly bad card.
Look, it's a counterspell. For either five mana or another card. A counterspell. In blue. One that hymns the caster 95 % of time.
If DCI bans it, they may ban Chimney Imp just as well.

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Force of Will eliminates entire archetypes by itself. It creates an incremental meta in which players are afraid to make big investments early because a multi-card investment that is forced at the end is game over.

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Obvious Storm players are obvious.

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Not when they're on the draw and I ritual out a Trinisphere they're not. Not when I Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach or Sinkhole they're not. Heavily black lists are suppressed dramatically by the blue shell. Turn 1 Thoughtseize that hits nothing of value due to Brainstorm is a deflater. Watching the blue shell recover position quickly via cantrips is another deflater. Watching the mix of power cards that the blue shell incorporates and finds with great celerity even in the face of disruption out-value the cards available in a disruption heavy scheme is another deflater. This is why mono-black is not a thing in Legacy, whereas mono-red, mono-white and mono-blue all have a place at the table. Even mono-green gets there in the form of elves.

Ditch Brainstorm and Force of Will and mono-black will have a place at the table again. Black with small splashes will also show up. Combo can't stand lists in that general archetype.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Force of Will eliminates entire archetypes by itself. It creates an incremental meta in which players are afraid to make big investments early because a multi-card investment that is forced at the end is game over.




Not when they're on the draw and I ritual out a Trinisphere they're not. Not when I Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach or Sinkhole they're not. Heavily black lists are suppressed dramatically by the blue shell. Turn 1 Thoughtseize that hits nothing of value due to Brainstorm is a deflater. Watching the blue shell recover position quickly via cantrips is another deflater. Watching the mix of power cards that the blue shell incorporates and finds with great celerity even in the face of disruption out-value the cards available in a disruption heavy scheme is another deflater. This is why mono-black is not a thing in Legacy, whereas mono-red, mono-white and mono-blue all have a place at the table. Even mono-green gets there in the form of elves.

Ditch Brainstorm and Force of Will and mono-black will have a place at the table again. Black with small splashes will also show up. Combo can't stand lists in that general archetype.

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FoW only suppress back decks which can't recover from blue mages hymning themselves because they're all in on a single card.

Iremember when I thought force of will was a broken card. Yeah.. I had never played a game of legacy before. Then I played a month or so and realized that often I didn't care about the card

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

I've already thought about this, thank you very much, and it's easily defensible. Brainstorm and Force of Will are only 2 playsets (8 cards) out of 60 in each deck, which means in truth they as a shell comprise about 13.33_% of each deck, which means they take up about 9.33_% of the total meta even though they are present in 70% of the lists.

Now take the very base of the Delver of Secrets shell, which commonly includes Ponder, Daze and Wasteland in addition to Delver, Force, and Brainstorm. That's 6 playsets (24 cards) out of 60 in each deck, which means the Delver shell makes up about 40% of each deck, which means if (IF) Delver decks just make up 40% of the meta, the shell takes up about 16% of the total meta.

Just to so I can actually put numbers behind this, let's use The Council, shall we?

http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcar...s=11&anio=2014

http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...&fecha=2014-11

Out of 231 decks of at least 60 cards each (13860 cards total), 1693 of those cards are Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will. That's ~12.22% of the meta composed of the three most popular cards.

Then take the aforementioned Delver shell with Delver, Wasteland, and Daze in addition to those three cards. That's 2620 cards or ~18.90% of the meta with cards in the Delver shell.

And let's not get started on how a lot of those cards on the top 20 are present in UR Delver specifically.

The truth is there in the data provide: that despite Brainstorm having a high presence as a card, Delver-tempo has a high presence as an archetype. Just need to interpret the data correctly instead of taking it at face value.

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Thanks for that, actually. That helps make sense of the scope of the 'issue'. I'd be grateful if you'd be willing to compare and constrast this to the banning of Mental Misstep for penetration in decks, if there's data that goes back that far..