[Deck] Death and Taxes

Recruiter is the best late-game top deck we have, especially when you have a pair of Vials. Even if you don't have any silver bullets to fetch, you get absurd lines like:

Cast Recruiter getting Flickerwisp
Vial in Flickerwisp, blinking Recruiter.
Get Stoneforge, Vial in Stoneforge, grab a piece of equipment.

This utility alone (the "army in a can" effect) would be worth the two slots. It also serves as a copy of your best cards in the slower matchups and your hate cards in combo matchups. It's a consistency card in a deck that doesn't have too much of that sort of thing. Like any card in our deck, it has its strengths and weaknesses. It will get boarded out in plenty of matchups. That doesn't mean you should leave the card out of the deck for tempo reasons. We are a control deck. We want the game to go long. Recruiter's value gets better as the game goes long.

I think recruiters shine in the grindy match ups but suck against aggro or tempo. Recruiters plus vials equals a flickerwisp army. This is just my view as D&T newbie (just one week of experience). Would you guys recommend more avengers over crusaders in a meta with more eldrazi?

@Phil
agreed. thats why i still run 1. the upsides are absolutely worth at least 1 slot,imo.


regarding avenger vs crusader:
i recommend both. but against eldrazi specifically,yes, i think avenger is more important/better in this MU, aside from the occasional dismember that crusader could dodge. but those are rare corner cases. overall flying is very important vs them.

I still run two Recruiter maindeck and am usually happy to see him (uh...her), particularly when games go long.

I do find I typically side him out in fast combo matchups though; even though he can help find hate pieces I'd rather emphasize speed and make room, but at the expense of sometimes needing to mulligan more aggressively.

@cheerios

Avenger comes down quickly off Vial and lets you sometimes take the role of aggressor away from your opponent. It's great in the matchup. Crusader isn't necessarily a bad card either though. It walls the small threats and trades with a Thought-Knot. I'd look at your metagame as a whole and figure out which would be better rather than focusing just on Eldrazi.

@medea

I agree. I managed to reach the semifinals of a 5 round event last weekend playing a 2 crusader and 2 avenger split. I lost to bug delver and infect. This was my second tourney with the deck and had several misplays during the day. Sowap was great all day. I used it vs mono red sneak, and lands.

Sword of War and Peace won me $50 at our local monthly Legacy; beat Grixis Delver, Red Stompy, Elves, and UW Standstill.

Something something SoWaP is the truth, something something...

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Something something SoWaP is the truth, something something...

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This is more of a thought exercise than anything else, but the decks I saw this weekend were almost all red, white, and combo:

Czech Pile, Elves, Red Stompy, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show, Storm, UW Standstill, Goblins, Food Chain, Soul Sisters

Would you consider playing a 4th equip main here or moving the Batterskull to the sideboard or something else to play War and Peace main?

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Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham

This is more of a thought exercise than anything else, but the decks I saw this weekend were almost all red, white, and combo:

Czech Pile, Elves, Red Stompy, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show, Storm, UW Standstill, Goblins, Food Chain, Soul Sisters

Would you consider playing a 4th equip main here or moving the Batterskull to the sideboard or something else to play War and Peace main?

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Would I consider it? Absolutely. Would I pull the trigger on it? Probably not. I feel like there's enough Eldarzi and Delver running around right now that I want to have the Batterskull as a life gain crutch; I don't like Batterskull, but it has its role. The last time I pulled the trigger on SoWaP in the main was when Miracles was EVERYWHERE and the pro-white was super relevant there in addition to all of the normal uses of the card. I don't think that you'd get punished for the change though; there's enough of the mirror around where you'll mise a bunch of game 1 wins off that.

new to DnT

is there a equipment fetching order you prefer when playing Stoneforge against blue decks? i.e. Miracles, Delver, and Czech Pile

Likely Sword of Fire and Ice.

Phil's written a post about fetching equipment on his site:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=43

because Gideon, is still so preferred not SB instead of Cataclysm? It seems he's only good when we're ahead. Do not have the same ability to reset the game

Apologies as I know this has been posted earlier but can’t seem to find it. Can you vial in a containment priest or will it exile itself? Thanks

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Originally Posted by Oogway

Apologies as I know this has been posted earlier but can’t seem to find it. Can you vial in a containment priest or will it exile itself? Thanks

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It won't exile itself.

Alright this nyx fic deck is running rampant in my meta.
I've tried keeping hands with a combination of Pithing Needle, Thalia, and Revoker pee and post side board. I name volraths stronghold with Pithing Needle, Revoker 1 names pernicious deed, and Revoker 2 names garruk relentless. However, any number of these things is not enough of a clock to kill him before the impending hard cast of overwhelming splendor. I've also sided in both surgical and rest in piece but cabal therapy just rips it out of your hand.

Any help would be nice.

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Originally Posted by G0R3F3ST

Alright this nyx fic deck is running rampant in my meta.
I've tried keeping hands with a combination of Pithing Needle, Thalia, and Revoker pee and post side board. I name volraths stronghold with Pithing Needle, Revoker 1 names pernicious deed, and Revoker 2 names garruk relentless. However, any number of these things is not enough of a clock to kill him before the impending hard cast of overwhelming splendor. I've also sided in both surgical and rest in piece but cabal therapy just rips it out of your hand.

Any help would be nice.

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Exile the Academy Rector with the exile trigger on the stack. Surgical Extraction works, Faerie Macabre works, Rest in Peace shuts it all down (and I think even shuts down Veteran Explorer too but I'm not 100% sure on that one).

While Veteran Explorer is a "dies" trigger, Rector must be exiled from the graveyard after it dies. Therefore if it doesn't make it to the graveyard, or if you remove it otherwise before the trigger can be resolved, the opponent will not get tutor effect.

EDIT: Here's is Rector's text on Gatherer:
When Academy Rector dies, you may exile it. If you do, search your library for an enchantment card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

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Originally Posted by RobNC

Exile the Academy Rector with the exile trigger on the stack. Surgical Extraction works, Faerie Macabre works, Rest in Peace shuts it all down (and I think even shuts down Veteran Explorer too but I'm not 100% sure on that one).

While Veteran Explorer is a "dies" trigger, Rector must be exiled from the graveyard after it dies. Therefore if it doesn't make it to the graveyard, or if you remove it otherwise before the trigger can be resolved, the opponent will not get tutor effect.

EDIT: Here's is Rector's text on Gatherer:
When Academy Rector dies, you may exile it. If you do, search your library for an enchantment card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

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"Dying" trigger means it needs to hit the graveyard. If it gets exiled instead it never dies and thus never triggers. Long story short, you are right about explorers also being shut down by RIP.

The best way to combat that deck is really to hit the graveyard. Consider it like a slower more controllish reanimator deck but instead of bringing back creatures they bring back enchantments. Without their graveyard the deck is really terrible (it's impossible to get enough mana to hardcast those enchants without explorer).

Hi friends, just looking for some fringe advice here. The last match of my last league, my opponent went:

Game 1 on the play: Chrome Mox exiling Griselbrand, Ritual, Entomb, Animate Dead Griselbrand, Draw 7, Unmask targetting me exiling another Ritual. I conceded since I was 0% to win and no reason to reveal my deck.

I boarded out my Stoneforges, equipment, and 3 Flickerwisps for a flurry of hate and removal (2 Path, 2 Canonist, 3 RiP, 1 Faerie, 2 Containment Priest).

Game 2, I opened with Vial; he T1 Thoughtseized my removal spell leaving me with 3 sideboard haymakers and played T2 Pack Rat. I managed to just barely port him out of making all the Pack Rats and win with a Mirran Crusader. However, SFM would have been the perfect card against someone trying to go Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat, so he got me. I guess?

I assume he will go all-in reanimator again since he is on the play Game 3 so I leave my sideboarding as is. Normally I would consider cutting Moms or Crusaders but they are a good hedge against Pack Rat... I guess...?

Game 3 I kept StP, Faerie Macabre, RiP, Canonist, Port, Plains, Plains. He played T1 Ritual, Thoughtseize my StP (!!), Pack Rat. He then hit running basics and I couldn't keep up; my port only delayed him by a turn and in the end my few 2/2s ended up chumping or trading with his 3/3s and I had almost no relevant lategame in my deck.

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What would you do differently? Is this deck a known quantity? Do you think in hindsight that the Pack Rats were maindeck?

Thanks for any wisdom. I think one of the underrated challenges of this deck is the skill to "sight-read" pilot it correctly against plays you don't see often.

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Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham

Hi friends, just looking for some fringe advice here. The last match of my last league, my opponent went:

Game 1 on the play: Chrome Mox exiling Griselbrand, Ritual, Entomb, Animate Dead Griselbrand, Draw 7, Unmask targetting me exiling another Ritual. I conceded since I was 0% to win and no reason to reveal my deck.

I boarded out my Stoneforges, equipment, and 3 Flickerwisps for a flurry of hate and removal (2 Path, 2 Canonist, 3 RiP, 1 Faerie, 2 Containment Priest).

Game 2, I opened with Vial; he T1 Thoughtseized my removal spell leaving me with 3 sideboard haymakers and played T2 Pack Rat. I managed to just barely port him out of making all the Pack Rats and win with a Mirran Crusader. However, SFM would have been the perfect card against someone trying to go Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat, so he got me. I guess?

I assume he will go all-in reanimator again since he is on the play Game 3 so I leave my sideboarding as is. Normally I would consider cutting Moms or Crusaders but they are a good hedge against Pack Rat... I guess...?

Game 3 I kept StP, Faerie Macabre, RiP, Canonist, Port, Plains, Plains. He played T1 Ritual, Thoughtseize my StP (!!), Pack Rat. He then hit running basics and I couldn't keep up; my port only delayed him by a turn and in the end my few 2/2s ended up chumping or trading with his 3/3s and I had almost no relevant lategame in my deck.

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What would you do differently? Is this deck a known quantity? Do you think in hindsight that the Pack Rats were maindeck?

Thanks for any wisdom. I think one of the underrated challenges of this deck is the skill to "sight-read" pilot it correctly against plays you don't see often.

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I would have identified your opponent as being on the Unmask version of Tin Fins that has been running around. It's possible they were actually some sort of budget mono black reanimator as well. I would not have expected a Pack Rat at all, and Pack Rat seems like a card that should be pretty beatable given our Revokers, StP, Flickerwisps, Crusaders... Either way, I would have focused on beating the graveyard aspect of the deck.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

I would have identified your opponent as being on the Unmask version of Tin Fins that has been running around. It's possible they were actually some sort of budget mono black reanimator as well. I would not have expected a Pack Rat at all, and Pack Rat seems like a card that should be pretty beatable given our Revokers, StP, Flickerwisps, Crusaders... Either way, I would have focused on beating the graveyard aspect of the deck.

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Tin Fins doesn't play Animate Dead, it's definitely BR Reanimator and the Pack Rat sb plan has been around for a while.

Thoughts on my current 4x Mirran Crusader build after 127 matches.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Thoughts on my current 4x Mirran Crusader build after 127 matches.

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Can I ask how you board against Elves? I've been off DnT for about 6 months now, but when I was playing it regularly I reached a point where this match up felt 50-50 or better. I know that's not the traditional experience for most players.

I did have a couple unique sb choices though, so maybe that made the difference (1-2x Gut Shot).

Hey Phil, great article. Been away for a bit and it looks like some things have swung. If we're having more trouble with removal, how about an anthem effect in one of the flex slots in the side? I wish there were a tutorable option, but anything small enough to be tutored is also small enough to die to the same 2-damage effects we're trying to disrupt anyway. Back to the article, I don't think you mentioned Serra Avengers. Are you not missing a larger air force at all, or do you simply think that Crusaders do more for us these days than Avengers?

@Balanced

My thoughts on the matchup are here. If you're running a black splash with a bunch of Pontiffs or a red splash with some things like Cunning Sparkmage, your results will be much better.

@kerbdsl

From a previous article

"I decided that I wanted to win the Czech Pile matchup via virtual card advantage (i.e. not by out-grinding, but by invalidating opposing resources, effectively putting myself ahead). 4 copies of Crusader and 2 Recruiters to find them meant that I would very consistently be able to stick a very difficult to remove threat that didn’t get bogged down by Baleful Strix and other small chump blockers. While my opponent would likely have a couple of answers in the 75, I had a long-term gameplan. Previously, I had used SoLaS to push through Strix as well as recoup card advantage, but that was no longer needed. Which lead into change two…"

Gideon is about our best option as far as anthems go, unfortunately.

While I'd like another flier or two, sacrifices have to be made somewhere. I made my choice.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

@Balanced

My thoughts on the matchup are here.

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Id actually already looked at that, I was more curious as to how youve been boarding with your 4 crusader build specifically.

From my experiences, winning the match several times in local metas and larger tourneys, I highly recommend going -4 Thalia -4 Aether Vial, and keeping the BS. Vial is too slow, and BS is an occasional get em (in that it can keep you alive after an early NO) when you naturally have it in hand and SFM in play. The match requires very tight play, and game 1 is generally a loss, but the matchup can be recovered in games 2 and 3 with light luck and appropriate pressure to key green men. Thats been my experience.

@Balanced

I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

@Balanced

I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

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Your councils and paths would both be better, though that is still 1-2 cards slower than the versions I played, and a second sanctum would be better still though it wasn't in your list. I actually usually cut 9 cards, bringing in two council's, 1 path, 1 gut shot, 2 canonist, 2 containment priest, and the 2nd prelate. In my lists I usually had a dead 9th card (like Mangara), but there is a justification for batterskull if you prefer it, though I like to maximize equipment and lifegain is relevant. Council's can hit null rod as well as progenitus, and can pick off utility creatures in the mid game, which is where you want the match to go. In my experience with this match you are dead 90% on game 1, favored without incredibly unlucky hands game 2, and slightly unfavored game 3 due to their ability to nut draw a turn ahead of your tempo / denial. You are dead to a turn 3 glimpse roll into non-NO hoof pretty much at all times, but those games are more far and between than the flood the board or NO ones which are winnable and easier to prevent respectively. In the first turns you want to see removal against their dorks then priority is Jitte obviously, but also getting SOFI in hand almost immediately in hand as a backup as they'll often take out jitte after you've connected once. I'm also happy with heavy removal / wasteland hands if I don't see SFM or equipment. I personally like to get BS on the board as step 3 and start gaining life to protect against hoof / trample, while trying to get as many lock pieces on board as possible with moms to protect them. I have a lot of respect for Quiron Ranger in this matchup and keep a sharp eye on it, as when I do still lose it's usually to the annoying utility of that creature and its ability to fight against resource denial.

The meta is probably a little friendlier to double path as in your lists right now with all the Deathrite nonsense, but I've always had a soft spot for gut shot as it really makes a difference in Elves, Infect, and the mirror, as well as against pyromancer/delver and dredge (kill your own dude to eliminate bridges). Gut shotting with one land up and Thalia in play against Infect is always a surprise get 'em that they are unprepared for.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

@Balanced

I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

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Yeah the only match up I cut vials in is Nic Fit.
Against elves i'm usually doing the above, plus cutting 3 other cards (frequently moms as you only really have to dodge some abrupt decays) to bring in 1 path & 2 judgments. extra single target removal is key

I play from both sides, more on the elf side actually... But cutting mom's is not really good actually in my opinion. Before I would cut her, but training this MU much more, and playing it from the other side, the games without mom, Rec Sage runs over DnT, mom has a big big role in this MU.

@Balanced: The MU is not 50/50, even overboarding things, a good elves pilot vs a good DnT pilot will be in the 70/30 bar, gut shot is a bad card, that can in some fringe spaces be good here in this MU. The reason why this MU is not 50/50 is very simple, DnT can not stop the mana production elves create, so eventually elves will have a lot of mana, there is no way unless some extremely specific hate card, that with average draws the elf player won't be able to hardcast the Hoof and just win. There is no hate card that stops that, and I'm saying hardcasting taking in consideration you have Ethersworn canonist, mother of runes protecting her and lets say Grafdigger's Cage to end both the glimpse/visionary combo and the GSZ/NO kill, AND hope he doesn't have Abrupt/Rec Sage AND hope he doesn't have mana or hoof to hardcast it, that is the ideal lock scenario, and you will need Jitte to clear the board and close the game. Legacy is that, decks need to attack from some sort of angle and other decks attack from an angle that simply doesn't care what you do, elves does exactly that in this MU.

Resuming, the MU is very winnable, but it is not good, cutting vials is not that bad actually, but what exactly does come in that are better than the Vials? Batterskull is easily much worse in this MU than the Vials. Council's Judgment is soooo bad in this MU unless you hit Progenitus (which like very few lists run now), it takes like your whole turn to hit... a 1/1 elf, path is also a C- card on the MU.

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Originally Posted by Raizen884

@Balanced: The MU is not 50/50, even overboarding things, a good elves pilot vs a good DnT pilot will be in the 70/30 bar, gut shot is a bad card, that can in some fringe spaces be good here in this MU. The reason why this MU is not 50/50 is very simple, DnT can not stop the mana production elves create, so eventually elves will have a lot of mana, there is no way unless some extremely specific hate card, that with average draws the elf player won't be able to hardcast the Hoof and just win. There is no hate card that stops that, and I'm saying hardcasting taking in consideration you have Ethersworn canonist, mother of runes protecting her and lets say Grafdigger's Cage to end both the glimpse/visionary combo and the GSZ/NO kill, AND hope he doesn't have Abrupt/Rec Sage AND hope he doesn't have mana or hoof to hardcast it, that is the ideal lock scenario, and you will need Jitte to clear the board and close the game. Legacy is that, decks need to attack from some sort of angle and other decks attack from an angle that simply doesn't care what you do, elves does exactly that in this MU.

Resuming, the MU is very winnable, but it is not good, cutting vials is not that bad actually, but what exactly does come in that are better than the Vials? Batterskull is easily much worse in this MU than the Vials. Council's Judgment is soooo bad in this MU unless you hit Progenitus (which like very few lists run now), it takes like your whole turn to hit... a 1/1 elf, path is also a C- card on the MU.

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I suppose we have different opinions on the MU. With tight play and my boarding strategies I have found it to be much better than other people's experiences, and that's after jamming many games. I'll leave it at that.

The downside of vial in the elf match-up is that playing the vial makes you skip a turn you could have caged, needled, plowed or pathed, while it only really pays off as soon as you get it on 2. That turn may be critical, as elves can win turn two (not very often) or set up an almost unstoppable turn 3 (quite often). But that doesn't weigh up against the upside of making aggressive port and wastes a possibility, and also allowing you to play your removal spells later on while still adding pressure/hatebears to the board in the same turn. In the elves match-up, you'll very often be constrained on mana. Therefore, you can't board out your best solution to that problem. Vial also greatly contributes to your chances to survive the midgame when you make it that far. You may increase your chances of losing against their aggressive, powerful hands, but you also increase your chances of winning against their slower, value hands, which are the games we should aim to win as the former are mostly lost causes anyway.

I also don't like boarding out mom, because mom + canonist is almost impossible for them to get rid of, while canonist on its own is still vulnerable to any GSZ. Thalia is by far the worst card and easiest cut. There's something to say for cutting batterskull, but in some games you just need its stabilizing effect vs aggro and its minimal mana investment off of stoneforge compared to the others (+ being less vulnerable to null rod), so I'd rather cut some low-impact beaters like Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader or Serra Avenger. All mainly serve to race your opponent or carry equipment through symbiote and have a little extra boon attached (wisp can do relevant disruption/protection off of vial, crusader can't be decayed and is more brutal with equipment, avenger comes down earlier from vial and is better in an aggro race), but feel like the weakest and most redundant cards in the match-up.

Council's Judgment can be included, but I think it will just be either win-more or not-enough most of the time, as you will use it mostly to kill a one mana elf. Still, the ability to immediately deal with a Nissa, Progenitus, Null Rod or Sylvan Library is not that fringe and unimportant. The question is whether you can afford to cut more cards to make room for the Judgments. Beyond thalia, you don't really have anything that is absolutely terrible in the match-up, so you will have to cut cards that still play a role in your overall strategy. And then you might be diluting your deck's strategy too much just to have extra answers that will only rarely matter.

In my tournament record I can recall, I think I'm about 5-2 against elves in matches. Most of my wins were due to my opponent missplaying (never feel overconfident in your good match-ups!) or due to blow-out hate pieces I was playing like Thalia HC and Orzhov Pontiff. I even countered a Natural Order with a Judge's Familiar once, although, in his defense, he couldn't make the extra mana anyway and he was facing an activated jitte + port next turn.

For the holidays, how about something a little more light? if you could put together a list of achievements for the deck, what would it include?

This came to me yesterday because I ended up in a game against Jund where the correct line was to equip batterskull to a Mother of Runes, which is a first for me in 4 years of playing the deck.

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Originally Posted by Balanced

Can I ask how you board against Elves? I've been off DnT for about 6 months now, but when I was playing it regularly I reached a point where this match up felt 50-50 or better. I know that's not the traditional experience for most players.

I did have a couple unique sb choices though, so maybe that made the difference (1-2x Gut Shot).

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I tested 2 Gut Shot in the board in vs a friend for a very large sample set of matches. It really didn't make a meaningful difference in the overall win %. Sometimes you have one and it buys you a turn. But Elves isn't Infect - removal doesn't win you the game on its own. Gut Shot is great vs Infect and okay in the mirror, but vs Elves it's just another card that does something. Which is fine, you want cards that do something. But just because you have some doesn't mean you win. You still need the stars to align. And I think anyone who doesn't understand this just hasn't played the match-up enough against competent players. We would all love to find that 'One Simple Trick that Elves Players HATE'. It doesn't exist.

Also cutting Vials because they're 'too slow' is such a bizarre way of looking at things. Your natural hands are slow, Vial is fast.

In my experience, there's one thing (and one thing only!) that can help shore up the Elves!-matchup to make it a little less abysmal than what it normally is: Splashing. To be more precise: Having access to Perish, Engineered Plague, Sudden Demise, Orzhov Pontiff, or stuff like Goblin Sharpshooter. But even then, it's an uphill battle.

Note that of those, only Demise for 1 is faster than our mono-white options, e.g. Holy Light is a sweeper of sorts at cmc 3. Many of those splash cards are better than what we get in white, but they're still slow. We need 2-drop answers.

Yes, Holy Light is also a very solid option that can even go the extra mile to deal with True-Name Nemesis. However, it will also clear the board of Phyrexian Revokers, which is usually an important piece versus Elves.

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Originally Posted by colo

Yes, Holy Light is also a very solid option that can even go the extra mile to deal with True-Name Nemesis. However, it will also clear the board of Phyrexian Revokers, which is usually an important piece versus Elves.

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More importantly, you can't recruit for holy light. Playing a pontiff or a cunning sparkmage means you have 3 copies, not just 1.

Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

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So it would hit Snapcaster Value and flipping Search for Azcanta? Am I missing anything else?

I don't love it, because I feel like D&T is firmly the aggro deck in the matchup.

I will say though, that Enevoldsen's Relic of Progenitus tech looks fairly useful here.