[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

Kuma you're 100% wrong. Extirpate is the SB card I SB in the more often. It wins mirror and control. AG has already been discussed a lot. I understand that you might prefer another out to aggro, but you absolutely need one. And Slaughter Pact, what's the problem with that card? Why would you prefer bounce to removal? Will you enter more than 4 bounces in a single MU? You already said that no. So why would you play 4/6 bounces in SB instead of play 8 dedicated and highly efficient removals? Sorry but I don't get.

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I don't think Extirpate is a good card for combo -- it's better suited to control. Still, you're arguably right about Extirpate; I just don't like the card and don't want to argue its merits and demerits here when there's a whole thread of people already doing so.

AG is not an out to aggro. AG lets you Ad Nauseum at low life totals, which can be helpful vs. aggro, but that's why we run IGG. I have never had problems winning through IGG; I've won nearly one third of my games with ANT without resolving Ad Nauseum. We're storm combo. We roll aggro decks. I'd rather have something to improve our bad matchups.

The problem with Slaughter Pact is that it's narrow. Don't get me wrong, it's the best card for killing Teeg, MM, and Cannonist, but it's nearly useless against goyfs and other creatures because of the upkeep cost. I've been thinking about Deathmark, and I think it's better.

Deathmark kills:

Gaddock Teeg
Meddling Mage
Ethersworn Cannonist
Tarmogoyf
Swans of Brynn Argol
Terravore
Nantuko Monastary
and more...

As for why I prefer bounce to removal, in combo decks, bounce spells are like instant speed blue Vindicates. You bounce whatever permanent(s) give you problems at the end of their turn and win before they can recast them. In general, removal is narrower and more expensive than bounce, but it gets rid of cards forever. This isn't relevant to combo, because we only need cards out of the way for a turn.

Good luck killing nantuko monastery with deathmark when you are playing ANT...

Removing the nasty here is easy:

Deathmark is a sorcery so there is little chance that it will kill an opponent's Monastery.

-PR

Here is my current ANT:

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Orim's Chant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rushing River

Sideboard:

1 Plains
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3-4 Tormod's Crypt
3-4 Serenity
Duress?
Brain Freeze?
...


The 8 cantrips + 2 Sensei's give me a better Matchup against each deck that has a few maindeck cards that can disrupt the ANT-plan (nearly all decks)


I decided to play only 1 Ad Nauseam. The average convertened manacost of cards I can reveal is much lower this way. And when I play AN the highest cost I can reveal is 4 and not 5.

Ad Nauseam is only in the Deck to find it with Infernal and Mystical Tutor. In fact, I win the most of my games without AN.

AN is not necessary to win, when you know how to deal with your IGG.

@ Frenkill: No discard? Now you're just being silly...

It belongs maindecked barring only the Ichorid and loam Matchups.

I like top more than you I guess, because I think it should be a 3 or 4 of in most fetchland tendrils lists, and your list is no different. I'd drop a Ponder for a 3rd. They are really good in conjunction with Mystical Tutor, as well as help in the control matchup, not to mention with LED ramp-ups by knowing when you are going to see Ad Nauseam as a top-deck.

to whoever was talking about Extirpate wanting a more controlling aspect: That's exactly what storm uses it for. Control. Storm lists have a control aspect always, even TES. Belcher and SI are the ones with the smallest capacity for control, with belcher's being seemingly non-existant (never played it...but technically neither has anyone else). What do you think Chant is for? It's a control aspect. Extirpate simply makes your chants be bait, they compliment discard (which honestly should never be dropped) and also can give information (by looking at their hand) while removing problem cards such as stifle and force of will. I'm not saying play them, I'm just pointing out that you assessed them exactly right, but then dismissed them by ignoring you assessment.

@ Kuma: Slaughter Pact does all that and more for one less mana at instant speed...

Pce,

--DC

Hey there everyone! I just wanted to hop in for a moment and say, Frenkill love the list! I was already playing a similar list, (I think the main differences being -1 ponder +1 AN) but I read your post and tried your idea....I love it! it is amazing casting AN and not getting wacked for five! I completely agree with what you say about IGG as well, That is the go to card for me 7 out of 10 times. I only try for AN Against decks that run force.(in my meta there are not alot).
Dark Cynic: I really think that discard is amazing, but like fren kill mine is in the sb as well. It is wonderful having the extra space main, and if you do need it you can side it in. Top is good and i think I am going to try three in the space of the 4th ponder thanx!

My bad, I thought Deathmark was an Instant. Not that my argument suffers as a result.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

@ Kuma: Slaughter Pact does all that and more for one less mana at instant speed...

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Slaughter Pact is good for killing MM, Teeg, and Cannonist the turn you want to combo off. Are there any other relevant creatures when you're trying to combo? My point is that you can use Deathmark any time you want to kill all of the above problem creatures and more. If someone's eating away at your Ad Nauseum fodder (life points) with goyf, you can Deathmark it. You can't do that with Slaughter Pact unless you have three mana on the board or you use a ritual. There's also the chance with Slaughter Pact that one of your mana sources is Wasted/Gripped or your ritual is countered and you lose the game.

I'm not running either in my board right now, because bounce does everything both cards do and more.

EOT, bounce MM/Teeg/Cannonist, win on your turn.

On a related note, has anyone had any success with Dark Confidant in the sideboard? I tried him out last night vs Thresh, but the only time I drew him, he was Counterbalanced. Seems like he could be good vs control, and every time he connects it's one less storm you need to win. Seems like he'd be good in a deck designed to abuse his mechanic.

@Frenkill: this is the list I brought to the last 2 top8 with the exception of -1AN +1Ponder. This can be a right choice if in your meta there are few black based decks.

The Duress is a meta slot. In the right metagame Duress can be in the maindeck, in others Duress ca be in side. People say "No discard? Now you're just being silly..." don't understand the influence of the metagame in the choice of the right decklist for a metagame.
In brief, Duress maindeck is good in an heavy hate metagame.
Ponder decreases the mulligans and gives to you a more fast and more fluid deck. The choice is "pondered".

I've tried Dark Confidant in SB, but it's not synergistic with AN. When I have used DC, often I was obliged to win with IGG for the life loss (fetchland, DC, opponent race).

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Originally Posted by jegger

I've tried Dark Confidant in SB, but it's not synergistic with AN. When I have used DC, often I was obliged to win with IGG for the life loss (fetchland, DC, opponent race).

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I don't view Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseum as anti-synergistic, but as two sides of the same coin. ANT is built to take advantage of low casting costs with Ad Nauseum, so why not do the same with Bob?. The average CMC in my list is 1.033, so Bob seems like a natural fit. He seems amazing postboard vs Dreadstill and Ugw Thresh, since they'll side out what little creature removal they have, and he gives you a much better chance to successfully slow roll control. Since these decks are creature light, it's likely that he'll hit them once or twice so you'll need less storm to win. The life loss is almost irrelevant because you won't need as many cards off Ad Nauseum to win. Speaking of life loss, Bob can also chump block goyf to prevent some damage.

So you might have to win with IGG. Sometimes you need to win with IGG after an Ad Nauseum anyway. What are you doing with those extra cards from Bob that you didn't have enough in hand to win with Ad Nauseum?

In the lists running extra cantrips and Top, I don't see how you can make an arguement not to run Bob. He'll deal you even less damage per card than Ad Nauseum.

In what metagame is Duress less than amazing? Seriously, I can't think of any other than one completely devoid of anything other than goblins...

Duress isn't good in a heavy hate environment, it's fantastic. It's good in a random metagame.

I think it's bad form to say it's a meta call when every other storm list out there MD's 4x of them (TES, SI, QSI, FT). I think ANT might even...

I'll drop the issue now, and you guys should ignore me as I have a problem with having to have the last word in an argument (I've been married, sue me).

Pce,

--DC

So, anyone else happy with the Grand Prix Okayama legacy side event lists?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...a08/legacytop8 (it's in Japanese, but the lists are there)

3 lists using Ad Nauseam:
1st and 3rd place are both basically TES with Mystical Tutor (but less gold lands, interesting, they look more FT-ish)
8th place is 2 land Belcher with 2xAdN.

Maybe we should eventually shift into this weird TES/ANT/FT hybrid for maximum efficiency.

I think all of those lists are incredible across the board. I love the first place list for incorporating basic lands and duals instead of some of the weaker gold lands. The answers maindeck can all be fetched with Mystical Tutor. 2 AdN makes the curve pretty low after casting 1, and the 2 Mox Diamond really help win you games after resolving AdN. I like the lists alot, and this is exactly the type of shit everyone was talking about. Legacy gets bigger? Japanese figure it out. Awesome if you ask me.

Hello, I want to put this idea in mind of every body and tell me how could this idea can be developed .
I've testing A.N deck quite a lot and I noticed we only need 1 AN to win , I mean there are no many times we really have it in hand in order to be played with rituals , in addition to this statement the 8 tutors have synerrgy with LED; LED has no synergy with AN in hand, therefore I can conclude that the tutors are the way to explode the A.N card ,even we reduce the average mana cost quite a lot.
Well this is the list I propose:

13 lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand


4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual // maybe +1 land= - 1 C.Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
Sideboard:
4 Pact of Negation
4 Wipe Away
4 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Ill goten Gains
1 Plains


I've been thinking in playing as well cunnin wish because of its flexibility and ability to get access to A.N in response to pòp LED , still testing,

however playing 9 chances of getting A.N + 8 Ponder/brainstorm we really have the way to make the combo withouth loosing one slot of the defensive cards duress / Orims.

Ideas, suggestions, Onions ?

The Japanese lists are interesting, but they don't seem optimized. Ryousei Kawai's list needs more Burning Wish and Orim's Chant and less Mox Diamond. The sideboard needs work too. Ancient Grudge in the maindeck is hot, but I'm not sure it's worth running a five color mana base. I like Yuu Saitou's list a little more, but I have many of the same complaints.

Rite of Flame doesn't get it done when it comes to casting Ad Nauseum, and while Burning Wish and improved sideboard flexibility are nice, I don't see any advantages to running either list over Bryant's latest TES list or B/u/w ANT lists. In my testing, the Japanese lists were similar to ANT in speed, but lacking in protection and consistency, the latter being due to running four colors.

Nice to see, that you like the idea with only one AN.


I had some thoughts about Duress...

When I look at all the ANT decks I see there are many decks with 3-4 Duress which doesn't play any bouncespell. (I catch this because this is the diffence between my list and Pelikanudo's one)

It makes sense. You don't need to bounce what you already let him discard...

I could take my deck and make -2 Ponder/Sensei's; -1 Bounce; -1 Pact; +4 Duress, like Pelikanudo does. So playing Duress gives one free slot.

What do you think about that?

I would leave the bounce. Really I would, as it's able to act as removal to that goyf chipping away at your life total. Also, I've been arguing in the TES thread since Ad Nauseam was printed to only run 1x AdN and run M. Tutors. I don't get it, but I like that (some of) you guys agree with me.

By the way, I was wondering something. Why do you guys worry about creatures that don't say something like Teeg/Meddling/Cannonist? Goyf doesn't get really big against us. Only against Goyf Sligh will he be bigger than what, a 3/4? Instant, land, sorcery is all they get from us or them in the Thresh matchup, and that's their turn 3 that they will even swing with it. I don't think it's something to worry about.

Also, I've run Chrome Mox as a 3x of and even a 2x of and been fine. I'd feel free to cut a Mox to leave your bounce in. Also, if your discard is in the form of Duress, you most definitely need the bounce as it won't remove the problem creatures mentioned above.

Pce,

--DC

@frenkill
@dark cinyl
I've been talking with DIF about the list and he does not include any removal spell, he says its useless at least in first game, as you say the cards we want to bounce are canonist , teeg, mage and COUNTERBANCE , well the three first cards for sure we will find it in 2nd game , respect to the last one... well there have to be any deck which wins us and those are decks with c.b ,however duress in that way is the card which helps us to fitgh c.b in first game. another point is about trinisphere and chalice, well if our opponent land chalice 1cc we loose if we have or not 1 bouncer spell, unless we have incredible luck and we draw it, trust me bouncer in 1st sucks, you'd better play cunnin or burning which are cards that get access to bouncers instead playing the bouncer by itself.

I really have some doubts about the inclusion of cunnin wish, the main deck as I conceived seems to me perfect, except the lack of 1 land(13 only) , however the full package both of 4duresses/4orims and 4brainstorm/4Ponder seem to be the goal of whatever builder of any ANT deck, and in mine you see these package

However I'd like you boys tell me if you agree with the list with 1 ANT and tell me thoutghs about the land configuration :
maybe +1 land = -1ponder or +1 land = -1I.tutor ...?

regarding to the cunnin wish, well ,somebody think, if AN would be sorcery, it would be broken because of burning wish...,well
we have cunnin wish , which search for INSTANTS and BOUNCERS and doesn't make our mana base worse , all seem to be advantages, the only thing I see it's not better than burning is because it's +1mana expensive, but thats all.

Well , ideas , suggestions , Onions?

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

@frenkill
@dark cinyl
I've been talking with DIF about the list and he does not include any removal spell, he says its useless at least in first game, as you say the cards we want to bounce are canonist , teeg, mage and COUNTERBANCE , well the three first cards for sure we will find it in 2nd game , respect to the last one... well there have to be any deck which wins us and those are decks with c.b ,however duress in that way is the card which helps us to fitgh c.b in first game. another point is about trinisphere and chalice, well if our opponent land chalice 1cc we loose if we have or not 1 bouncer spell, unless we have incredible luck and we draw it, trust me bouncer in 1st sucks, you'd better play cunnin or burning which are cards that get access to bouncers instead playing the bouncer by itself.

I really have some doubts about the inclusion of cunnin wish, the main deck as I conceived seems to me perfect, except the lack of 1 land(13 only) , however the full package both of 4duresses/4orims and 4brainstorm/4Ponder seem to be the goal of whatever builder of any ANT deck, and in mine you see these package

However I'd like you boys tell me if you agree with the list with 1 ANT and tell me thoutghs about the land configuration :
maybe +1 land = -1ponder or +1 land = -1I.tutor ...?

regarding to the cunnin wish, well ,somebody think, if AN would be sorcery, it would be broken because of burning wish...,well
we have cunnin wish , which search for INSTANTS and BOUNCERS and doesn't make our mana base worse , all seem to be advantages, the only thing I see it's not better than burning is because it's +1mana expensive, but thats all.

Well , ideas , suggestions , Onions?

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Well, I like your list and the full package^^.
My current list is:

14 lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor

2 Ad Nauseam //maybe -1 for +1 Cunning Wish... But I like two AdN
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
Sideboard:
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
4 Serenity
1 Ill goten Gains
1 Tendrils
1 Plains
2 Extirpate
1 Angels Grace
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Pact of Negation

I will test: -1 Land +1 Ponder
The problem with Ad as a 1of is, that it can be discarded and countered.
Therefor I like the cunning wish to make a 2nd AdN available.
I see still one Problem: discard on tendrils or extract.

@ Pelikanudo What is your boarding plan against UGR tempro thrash?
Cu

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

Well, I like your list and the full package^^.
Sideboard:
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
4 Serenity
1 Ill goten Gains
1 Tendrils
1 Plains
2 Extirpate
1 Angels Grace
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Pact of Negation

I will test: -1 Land +1 Ponder
The problem with Ad as a 1of is, that it can be discarded and countered.
Therefor I like the cunning wish to make a 2nd AdN available.
I see still one Problem: discard on tendrils or extract.

@ Pelikanudo What is your boarding plan against UGR tempro thrash?
Cu

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the best card vs fows and ,above all, dazes is pact of negation thats the reason I run 4 of them in side , they even get low the average mana cost

from my list for reference I'll take out :

-1 igg , -2 cabal ritual , -1 IT ,-1 led
as well If it is suposed to face wastelnds add the plain as well ,
the reasoning of these changes are :

once we have casted AN, we will not go on the way : IT + LED because we have more possibilities on the other way : chrome mox OR lotus petal + mystical + ponder OR brainstorm.

regarding to the problem of beeing discarded or beeing countered AN ,I do not find it as a problem , we allways can go on the way of IGG which gets stuff from graveyard.

The problem I have with running only one Ad Nauseum is that you become reliant on Mystical Tutor to get it. Since the replacement card of choice seems to be Ponder, consider these hands:

Underground Sea, Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ponder, IGG, Orim's Chant, Infernal Tutor.

Underground Sea, Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseum, IGG, Orim's Chant, Infernal Tutor.

In the hand with Ponder, you're relying on Ponder to show you a ritual or your lone copy of Ad Nausem. Maybe you'll get it, maybe you won't.

However, in the hand with Ad Nauseum, you have the ability to Ad Nausem turn two every time. That's the biggest difference. Cutting Ad Nauseums slows us down.

Pact of Negation and Cunning Wish don't belong in ANT. Pact of Negation is only useful for protecting Orim's Chant -- it can't protect Tutor/LED, which is when you're most vulnerable. Assuming they FoW your Chant, the odds are very low that they'll have another FoW ready to go. The best play is usually to try to combo there. At 2U, Cunning Wish is too expensive as a setup card, and doesn't seem useful off an Ad Nauseum.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

The problem I have with running only one Ad Nauseum is that you become reliant on Mystical Tutor to get it. Since the replacement card of choice seems to be Ponder, consider these hands:

a ) Underground Sea, Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ponder, IGG, Orim's Chant, Infernal Tutor.

b ) Underground Sea, Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseum, IGG, Orim's Chant, Infernal Tutor.

In the hand with Ponder, you're relying on Ponder to show you a ritual or your lone copy of Ad Nausem. Maybe you'll get it, maybe you won't.

However, in the hand with Ad Nauseum, you have the ability to Ad Nausem turn two every time. That's the biggest difference. Cutting Ad Nauseums slows us down.

Pact of Negation and Cunning Wish don't belong in ANT. Pact of Negation is only useful for protecting Orim's Chant -- it can't protect Tutor/LED, which is when you're most vulnerable. Assuming they FoW your Chant, the odds are very low that they'll have another FoW ready to go. The best play is usually to try to combo there. At 2U, Cunning Wish is too expensive as a setup card, and doesn't seem useful off an Ad Nauseum.

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well on the a) if you see with ponder Dark Ritual OR LED it's as fast as b)
if you see mox chrome AND land is equally as fast as b) because of IT , we'll imprint orims , etc, etc.

however I its maximum turn to combo is 3rd maybe I agree its a litle slower , very litle , but playing 1 AN , ALWAYS we play it ALWAYS we win, the reduction of the number of AN slower sooo much the average mana curve...

regarding Pact ... well it not only serves to protect orims , it protects as well duress, and trust me there are lot of people that don't know what to counter