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Ch@os: I've tried 3x P. Deed in the SB when my meta had decent amounts of random aggro and it worked just fine. My gameplan changed in these match-ups since I didn't find mana denial to be really effective (especially if they played Vial). Basically, all the games I played against such decks boiled down to slowing them down with Goyfs, Snuff Out + Edict + Deed and then resolving a Tombstalker (or activating Deed with Tombstalker in play) and riding TS to victory.
Yay, great to hear, thats exactly what came to my mind.
I dont want to loose against those decks and Deed, Edict, Snuff Out seems a very effective plan.
What Sideboard did you play exactly? I mentioned something like this:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
But i really loved to play the 4th BEB.
Tombstalker is getting submerged more often....thus his value is decreasing. If counterbalance is bigger at your shop than he's fine but if tempo thresh is seen more often then I recommend mongoose or bob. Conversely, more creatures I've been seeing are snuff out proof leaving those cards as blanks more often now. Diabolic edict seems to fill enough of that role. Just my two cents after a recent 77 person top 8.
Oh, I definitely want to hear about creatures you can't snuff out! Other than Mongoose, Tombstalker, and Mystic Enforcer, what un-Snuffable targets did you run into?Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitobunz
So maybe a split of Snuff Out /Edict 3/3?
Or replace Snuff Out complete with Edict?
Oh, I guess no one is playing tarmogoyf anymore. Fair enough. Would you not run tombstalker because swords to plowshares exists btw? Sure, submerge is a pain in the ass, but I don't think you just stop running an amazing threat because a blue spell can answer him.
Mongoose is probably ok, but I still don't think he's nearly as strong as stalker is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitobunz
I have played both versions of threshold, my black build and team america. After playing a lot of matches and tournaments with both, I found Mongoose to be far surperior to Tombstalker in most of my matches by having the ability to not target the creature which is huge.
The decks basically play the same cards with the only real change is tombstalker and sinkhole getting replaced since they have the double black in the casting cost.
I still think the canadian threshold deck is better than both of these, but if I had to pick a black variant, then its the one I've been testing and lending out to people in Syracuse to play.
Stalker represents an actual clock. Nimble Mongoose can just be chumped and Goyf eats it alive. It's clock is a lot slower. This deck needs a fast clock otherwise the opponent can just rebuild it's manabase and find answers to your threats. What I could see is maybe dropping one of the Tombstalkers for a misers Mongoose as getting stuck with 2 Stalkers is pretty bad.
I can see why Canadian Thresh prefers Mongoose (aside from the color requirments), they play tons of removal to clear out any blockers. Also, Canadian Thresh doesn't require an opponent to be at 0 life when he recovers from the tempo loss due to Stifle and Wastes. It just needs to put the opponent into burn range.
I'm sorry if I didn't actually responded to any question as I wasn't sure where some of the posts were getting at. In that case just ignore this rant.
It totally agree with you Mantis.
Ideally, you have to adapt what lands you put into play with your gameplan (i.e. if you want Tombstalker to stick, don't put Forests into play). That being said, that won't happen always in practice...Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitobunz
Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
If your saying that Carl didn't understand what the alternate casting cost of submerge was then your mistaken. Sometimes you don't have an option not to play a land b/c its a forest. You need blue mana a lot of times for your counters/draw and the 1 bayou is sometimes necessary in order to attain double black. When your playing against a tempo thresh deck, you need to hit your early land drops and protect them.
Maybe you live in a perfect world, we do not.
He makes a pretty valid point, sure sometimes you are left with no option but there are times you can play around Submerge. He even said that it won't always happen...Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Good job extrapolating my post into the stratosphere :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
In my post I said:
Quote:
That being said, that won't happen always in practice...
I'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
What I'm saying is obvious: if your opponent sides-in Submerge and you don't know it, then yes, it might wreck your game. If you're aware of it, then there are ways to minimize the damage it's going to cause by simply backing your creatures (it seems like you play enough disruption to do this rather often) and occasionally, you'll be able to deny the alternate cost. Conclusion: Yes Submerge increases UGR-Thrash' MU against TA, but I don't think Tombstalker's price is going to go down because of it (i.e. people will continue to smash face with TS in TA against Thrash). I don't think people will stop playing aggro-loam or Terravore and friends because of Submerge... :wink:
What would be a good sideboard for a 128 player GPT tournament when you don't really know what is going to be played?
Have any of you made any changes at all to nitewolf's original list in the OP, either the maindeck or the sideboard?
Eight threats just seems way too meager for me, so I cut Sinkhole to play the biggest threat of all time.
From the build in the OP...
+2 [VI] Vision Charm
+4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 [MM] Snuff Out
-4 [UN] Sinkhole
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=135
Basically, you're opting to cut Sinkhole to play an additional kickass threat, a 12/12 trampler along with Vision Charm which is plenty capable of color screwing your opponent.
Regarding the original sideboard, neither the Blue Elemental Blasts nor the Diabolic Edicts seem really optimal compared to options like Pithing Needles (far more versatile) and Misdirections (to protect your threats).
Pernicious deed does not seem all that great of a sideboard card for Team America since for one the spell costs three and it ties up more resources which outweighs it's actual benefits. The idea of Team America is to play some of the most cost efficient utility spells in the game and just smash face with cheap but productive threats. I don't see pernicious deed anywhere in that description for it's inclusion.
WITH sinkholes, Divert appears to be far superior to Misd..Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Even w/o Sinkholes Divert seems at least par to me.
I personally think divert is the funniest card on the planet right now. In a highly developed meta I think it is one of the most powerful cards as it handles some of the most powerful cards: thoughtseize, hymn, sinkhole, stp,smother, burn, and can help win a counter battle unexpectantly.
Yeah, I totally forgot about Divert.
I should try it.
I mean if Force Spike at 1cc said counter target spell unless your opponent pays 2, it would see a ridiculous amount of play, probably just as much as FoW.
So Divert should see the same amount of play as Misdirection.
So you cut Sinkhole which has amazing synergy with the deck and totally kicked the mana denial up a level and half of your removal to play Dreadnought. Why? 8 threats has been sufficient and I don't see how adding Dreadnought, a creatures that needs another card to be played would help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Also, I try to build my SBs so that they help in problematic MUs. BEB for burn and Goblins since they are rough MUs and Edict for additional removal against decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Thresh.
When I tried the deck, I've found eight to be a downright anemic number of threats. Many games, you might not even have a threat to cast till mid-late game. And even when you do, if your first threat gets either taken out, stolen or matched up vs. their own, you'll be scarmbling like a chicken with it's head cut off to try to find one of the other 7 threats left in the deck, and won't always be able to in time.
In a format where every decent deck plays 4 StP/Snuff Out and 2-4 other removal spells along with a bunch of countermagic, or bounce, playing just 8 threats is just asking to get screwed over.
Also, being able to swing with a 12/12 trampler for a two turn clock against fast aggro, burn and combo is a nice pro too.