[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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Originally Posted by andrew77

I agree that running a mix of lets say 4 brainstorms/2 breakthrough would be pretty sweet, but that creates a few problems...

1- Your discard outlets drop quite a bit. Even if you manage to run 4 imps/4 tribes, all you will have to go with that would be a total of 4 therpies and studys combined. This would probably mean either 4 therapy/0 study or 3/1 and therapy is really weak discard. I really think 10 discard outlets are needed besides therapy at the very least.

2- in games 2 and 3 the breakthroughs are almost guaranteed to come out. Since game 1 is almost always a bye, why bother running breakthrough when it will rarely be needed.

I have also been running a second undiscovered paradise over the citadel and I have been quite happy with this.

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Actually I am doing a split between study/brainstorm/ breakthrough. Im not settled on my counts yet, but games 2/3 the studies come out and so do the breakthroughs, I may do a 3 brainstorm, 3 study, 2 breakthrough. I havent made anything definite yet.

Here is what Im playing at the moment:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Breakthrough
3 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
2 Brainstorm

SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Inkwell Leviatian

Tis blend is working well for me, as brainstorm is great-but best in only a few situations, dropping them to 2 is testing well for me at the moment.

Why don't we use Null Rod? It seems like a house against BOTH Crypt and Relic, which are the main problems of the deck.

Also, Null Rod stops ANT's pre and post-ANT mana, making them turns slower to cast ANT, and then cast an answer off non-artifact mana.

My experience is that Null Rod is a heavily underrated card. It does so much in Legacy:

Shuts down Crypt/Relic/EE/Top
Shuts down affinity
Shuts down pre and post-ANT mana for ANT.
Does not affect this deck in any way. I'll probably run 3 Null Rods, and 3 Grudges in the SB, and 4 Chains, and maybe 2 Rays.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by crz87

Why don't we use Null Rod? It seems like a house against BOTH Crypt and Relic, which are the main problems of the deck.

Also, Null Rod stops ANT's pre and post-ANT mana, making them turns slower to cast ANT, and then cast an answer off non-artifact mana.

My experience is that Null Rod is a heavily underrated card. It does so much in Legacy:

Shuts down Crypt/Relic/EE/Top
Shuts down affinity
Shuts down pre and post-ANT mana for ANT.
Does not affect this deck in any way. I'll probably run 3 Null Rods, and 3 Grudges in the SB, and 4 Chains, and maybe 2 Rays.

Just a thought.

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Obviously you didnt read the posts before the latest ones :wink: It was included in almost every list, but we started dropping it for Peedles, and in my case Gargadons which totally rock btw :laugh:
I'd advise you to read through the whole thread :laugh:

~Maarten

I read from 16, which was where the debate started. The reason it was dropped, which hasn't seem a finalized argument was that Needle hit more than just artifacts i.e. creatures with sac ability (although M10 post rules will reduce their popularity). Another issue was Null Rod can't be easily casted with 2 mana against wastelands.dec, but aside from that, isn't Null Rod THE answer for the decks' problems?

I also run Gargadons, kudos for Parcher's invention. It's amazing against everything, giving another win-condition.

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Originally Posted by crz87

I read from 16, which was where the debate started. The reason it was dropped, which hasn't seem a finalized argument was that Needle hit more than just artifacts i.e. creatures with sac ability (although M10 post rules will reduce their popularity). Another issue was Null Rod can't be easily casted with 2 mana against wastelands.dec, but aside from that, isn't Null Rod THE answer for the decks' problems?

I also run Gargadons, kudos for Parcher's invention. It's amazing against everything, giving another win-condition.

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true, I think its a combination of people cutting down citadels and starting to play paradises so its not as often you have 2 lands and play rod since you want to be dreadging by then. Just test it and run it if it works for you :wink: because it does work well when it lands.

Yupp, hitting two lands in Dredge is a bitch sometimes, not to mention wasteland. My meta doesn't run much wastelands except for 1 Deadguy deck so Null Rod maybe ideal. Not to mention that it shuts off Vials for tribal decks that also board in Crypts/Relics, and shuts off Top/EE/Crypts/Relic for control decks, further stopping top from digging for answers and stopping EE on zombie tokens.

Seems ideal, but I can understand if the meta is filled with Wastelands, it's going to sit in hand doing nothing while you hope to topdeck lands.

The main reason I don't run nullrod/needle/gargadon is they are all in fact answers, but we are playing the most aggresive deck in magic and I'm not going to mulligan to find a slow answer.

Run grudge explode turn 2 attack their hand if they play turn 1 relic or cypt make them blow it early with grudge.

@brainstorm.
I guess people post board looking to find needle/nullrod/gargadon it might be good but I feel like their is stronger cards that could be in those spots.

I have toyed with the thought of 8 imp effects to really help you games 2-3 I ran the 4 tribe for a while in my board but only ever sided it in vs gobs/slight.

List is just very tight right now do to lark, I'm just going to cost the next 4-5 torns I go to with the list I am playing now till m10 comes in.

@sideboard cards

Comparing these cards is very difficult because they all function very differently. Grudge, Needle and Null rod are all answers. Needle and Null Rod are preventive answers. They flat-out stop the hate card from ever functioning, it becomes a factor for the rest of the game. Between the two I play needle because its easier to cast, if you have tried testing null rod and pithing needle, you'll observe that there more times that you can't cast null rod and wished it was a needle than the times that you wish your needle was a null rod. Needle is just not as dead as much compared to null rod.
Grudge and the like are reactive answers, cards that react to a threat already in the board, it has its merits but the problem is, even if you forced your opponent to break the hate card with grudge, the fact of the matter is, your graveyard is still removed. This is counter-intuitive because preventing that from happening is the whole point of running anti-hate cards in the first place. You often don't have time to build-up your graveyard again, that is why I don't like running grudges explicitly to answer artifact hate cards.

Greater Gargadon is different though, its not an answer. Its a fall back plan. It gives you one more effective way to win through hate without making use of the graveyard. It generally gives the deck a new way of winning that generally doesn't care about hate. Hopefully, given the high density of ways to win that your opponent is most of the time unable to answer to all at the same time, you will more or less overwhelm them, hopefully all the way to victory.

To which is better, for is all up to playstyle, not everyone pilots and sideboards the same way, so generally what card is used is all up to what card is the pilot most comfortable running. Im trying to get my hands on some greater gargadons, and ill try testing them, they are very interesting additions imo.

@Brainstorm

From my experience, splitting cards is never good because it weakens the cards altogether. Splitting brainstorm into the deck, careful study and breakthrough become very ineffective. Drawing into them become very inconsitent, this is something that the deck doesn't really want more of. Imo, its either cut on of the three cards altogether and just run study and brainstorm or any two together, the cards become more effective that way. Brainstorm is a card with potential, something I will test on in a few days. I'll test if the return to the top of the library part of BS is better than the one more draw and discard in breakthrough. Right now, BS seems iffy.

EDIT: Played with brainstorms and didn't like it, its too situational for me, dumping cards into the graveyard is better than putting some back in the library even post-board. It seems to make games slow especially post-board when the point of the deck is two stop hate cards then combo ftw.

A few points I would like to make.

I don't think 4 imps and 4 tribe's are needed unless you are running brainstorm. I also advocate a full set of brainstorms since they have so many uses.

I think gargadon is aweful since it just deviates from your dredge plan. It isn't great because people still leave in creature removal for ichorids and will only slow you down. Why weaken the deck by going in other directions? Also if you really wanted to run gargadons why not also run 4 goyfs in the side? Then you could almost go completely aggro.

Also on brainstorm. Most of you will sideboard out breakthrough if you are running it over brainstorm. Well if you run brainstorms you gain a very strong card in games 2/3. It has the ability to let you dredge 3 times, but can also dig for your answers.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

I think gargadon is aweful since it just deviates from your dredge plan. It isn't great because people still leave in creature removal for ichorids and will only slow you down. Why weaken the deck by going in other directions? Also if you really wanted to run gargadons why not also run 4 goyfs in the side? Then you could almost go completely aggro.

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Deviating from the Dredge Plan is exactly the point of running gargadons. It gives you one more way to win the game, more importantly, its a plan that doesn't use the graveyard. You can combo, they can stop that, zombie and ichorid beats along with gargadon, if not attack with gargadon alone. 4 Stps are the most common removal this deck will face, more often than not, those will hit ichorids to avoid the ichorid recursion plan. If they save it for gargadon, you can kill them with ichorid recurssions and zombies. Keeping the threat density high because of a variety of threats that require different ways of handling isn't as bad as it sounds. Also, in essence, you don't weaken the deck since the deck does slow down because breakthrough come out post-board, the dredge plan is still as good as it would post-board generally, but now you have the gargadon fall back plan. Post-board the dredge plan isn't as fast and effective as it could be because of hate, so deviating from it isn't a bad idea. Gargadons are better than goyfs in this case because goyfs are still gy based, and you have to cast it, gargadon is suspended then you try to combo-off, at some point when your opponent has spent its resources to stop that from happening, gargadon comes out to finish the job.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

Also on brainstorm. Most of you will sideboard out breakthrough if you are running it over brainstorm. Well if you run brainstorms you gain a very strong card in games 2/3. It has the ability to let you dredge 3 times, but can also dig for your answers.

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Yes, it does dredge for 3 and digs if necessary, but the problem is when you don't find what your looking for in the 3 cards, since you have to put back two cards, it delays you because it will take two more turns before you see a new card. Brainstorm isn't as effective in digging for answers without shuffle effects. Unlike breakthrough or study which draws and discards garbage not need, you dig deeper into the deck, thus filtering it more. More or less, you'd want the answer to be in your opening grip rather than hoping to draw into it mid-game since you'd be planning to answer the hate then go-off with the combo early in the game.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

Also on brainstorm. Most of you will sideboard out breakthrough if you are running it over brainstorm. Well if you run brainstorms you gain a very strong card in games 2/3. It has the ability to let you dredge 3 times, but can also dig for your answers.

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If I didn't side out the breakthrough/brainstorm spot I would have to side out better g2/3 cards like study.

@ gargadon
I have tested this to the point where I asked myself why am I weakening my game plan?
Blue deck are almost bye for this deck why bring in 8 cards when 4 was working?
How are you guys even fitting them in your board?
Are you throwing both the dredge and combo match up??
You need a solid 4 cards of hate in the board vs. either match up or your going to get blown out.

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

If I didn't side out the breakthrough/brainstorm spot I would have to side out better g2/3 cards like study.

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Thats the thing though, you don't actually need to take better cards out. In most matchups you will have some cards that become much weaker and should come out. For example cephalid sage comes out very often. With it you can cut the third dread returns. In other games a therapy or fkz can come out. A tireless tribe can also be cut against some matchups or an ichorid. Basically there's almost always something you can cut that isn't as good as what you are bringing in.

On gargadon, it is just bad. You are deviating from your game plan for a very succeptable alternative. Why not just bring in very powerful answers?

Has anyone seen this?


Burning Inquiry R
Sorcery C
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.
Jariad burned the midnight oil, burned through scroll after scroll, and then burned down his laboratory.
Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai

An Ancestral Recall with no real drawback for this deck might have some potential.

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

Has anyone seen this?


Burning Inquiry R
Sorcery C
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.
Jariad burned the midnight oil, burned through scroll after scroll, and then burned down his laboratory.
Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai

An Ancestral Recall with no real drawback for this deck might have some potential.

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The discard "random" cards part is a - for me. LED dredge may like this better, keeping cards in hand is what this deck likes to do unless you are going to win.

Been testing with 4 tribe/4 Pimp and dont think i will turn back ever again. Resolving one of either makes life very hard for your opponent and makes it easier to recover from relic/crypt

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

Blue deck are almost bye for this deck why bring in 8 cards when 4 was working?
How are you guys even fitting them in your board?
Are you throwing both the dredge and combo match up??
You need a solid 4 cards of hate in the board vs. either match up or your going to get blown out.

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You generally side gargadons in instead of anti-hate, so instead of focusing on stop them stop you, you play out your combo while gargadon is suspended and waiting to come into play. Its all about raising so much ways to win that your opponent gets overwhelmed for the lose.

Who the hell boards anything in for the dredge mirror? Its a wasted slot because for often than not, you will be the only dredge deck in most tournaments. If there is another one, there is a very low chance of ever facing him because if you aren't hated to hell, then he has been hated to hell, the chances of you guys facing each other in the swiss brackets and even in the top 8 playoffs is so little that sideboarding is not necessary. In the case of combo, chalice probably is the most effective sb for the match-up. This is a metagame call, if your meta has lots of combo then its good, if 1 to 2 combo is there it useless because, there are very little chances you face him especially with all the countertop decks around.

With this deck you don't pack in sideboard cards to beat every single deck that you think is a hard match-up especially if you don't expect it to come in large numbers. Sideboarding should be focused more on making the deck's marginal match-ups good or its good match-ups great especially against most of the field you'll be playing in.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

Thats the thing though, you don't actually need to take better cards out. In most matchups you will have some cards that become much weaker and should come out. For example cephalid sage comes out very often. With it you can cut the third dread returns. In other games a therapy or fkz can come out. A tireless tribe can also be cut against some matchups or an ichorid. Basically there's almost always something you can cut that isn't as good as what you are bringing in.

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Cutting therapy and tribe in lieu of making brainstorm work is useless, it'll just disrupt the decks balance between draw and discard more than it already is, it will just make the deck more inconsistent. You can't cut FKZ except vs slow blue because it wins you games now. You usually don't cut all your breakthroughs out because it gives explosiveness needed to win quickly after answering hate. You don't cut ichorid unless you're up against combo, which in any case brainstorm would suck more because its merits won't matter and the explosiveness and sheer drawing power given by breakthrough is very much a winning factor. In most cases, you just sideboard out breakthrough slot because its the most expendable slot in the deck. Its there when you need speed and goes out when you need to give-up speed in lieu of answers. There are no other slots that you can take out that doesn't make the deck suck more in lieu of brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

On gargadon, it is just bad. You are deviating from your game plan for a very succeptable alternative. Why not just bring in very powerful answers?

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Like I said earlier, you are not deviationg from the gameplan, you're just adding one more gameplan in your arsenal, all of which are more than capable of winning you games. You can easily sb in 3 answers along with two gargadons in worse case scenarios. This deck is easily the best combo deck in the format because it wins fast in a hella lot of other ways, the only drawback is its dependency of the graveyard. Given this, tell me why adding 1 more way of putting pressure on your opponent/winning and deviating the decks dependency on the graveyard, not good???

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Originally Posted by bum_man

With this deck you don't pack in sideboard cards to beat every single deck that you think is a hard match-up especially if you don't expect it to come in large numbers. Sideboarding should be focused more on making the deck's marginal match-ups good or its good match-ups great especially against most of the field you'll be playing in.

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Why would I WASTE valueble sb slots on my good MU's?
I win those already, that's what makes them good match ups.

@the best combo hate.
Its been a toss up for me between unmask,chant,chalice,leyline as the 4 last spots in my board.

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

Why would I WASTE valueble sb slots on my good MU's?
I win those already, that's what makes them good match ups.

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Success with the deck isn't just about winning match-ups, its all about winning matches consistently. We all know this deck can win, the problem is how to keep it winning on a consistent basis. It has worked for me so far but the way I see this, it would be a better formula for winning and achieving success with the deck by making good match-ups (which is most of the field), great match-ups rather than making bad match-ups (small part of the field) relatively good match-ups.

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Originally Posted by bum_man

Success with the deck isn't just about winning match-ups, its all about winning matches consistently. We all know this deck can win, the problem is how to keep it winning on a consistent basis. It has worked for me so far but the way I see this, it would be a better formula for winning and achieving success with the deck by making good match-ups (which is most of the field), great match-ups rather than making bad match-ups (small part of the field) relatively good match-ups.

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Congratulations you figured out how to play magic, good for you:tongue:

Ive tried running brainstorm and I just cant bring myself to play it anymore. Its good in too few situations for me to want it in my maindeck. Instead I am running 4 tribe and 4 therapy, 4 ichorid, and just 2 breakthrough. Landing tribe or imp is just so good against just about everything out there having 8 permanent discard effects is pure gravy

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

Congratulations you figured out how to play magic, good for you:tongue:

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So let me get this straight. You mouth off completely incorrectly and most likely with zero actual experience about how bad an idea is. Then, when all proven evidence, and decade-old proven theory shows how baseless and lame your assumptions are, you make a snide comment insulting the person that does so; attempting to belittle their correct argument to take attention away from how obviously wrong you were.

Why even bother with a site that actually attempts to improve the quality of Legacy decks and promote the Legacy format?