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I second that Aven Mindsensor is hot in this MU (as well as against other survival strategies). I switched my MD Kitchen Finks for mindsensors and feel they have a wider impact on a lot of games compared to the lifegain and defense provided by finks.
I also use two ghostly prison in my ET-driven SB, they come in against dredge, goblins and the madness vengevines. With these changes I've elevated my stats against madness to somewhere around 50/50, but it's still an extremely intense fight.
Hym, I don't think a singleton hate bear can be an answer to getting your survival countered...
I actually haven't lost from the madness deck. it seems to be pretty easy to stop their plans with mana denial/pridemages and with 8 survivals yourself they cant stop all with just fow(I hope u play around daze)
I've played GW Sur yesterday, on a 54 player tourney and finished 5-1-1
Lands
4 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Horizon Canopy
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Basking Rootwalla
3 Vengevine
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Eternal Witness
1 Birds of Paradise
// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Aven Mindcensor
Rd 1 BGR-Homebrew
G1: 2nd Turn KotR > 1 land hand
G2: My critters are simply bigger than his.
1-0
Rd 2 RGB-Aggro Loam
G1: He resolves Cotv turn 1, handles my turn 2 SotF with Wish -> Reverent Silenceand I draw into more StP and 1 Drops.
G2: I have 3 Goyf for lethal Dmg, he Topdecks DD...
1-1
Rd 3 Canadian
G1: Rape.
G2: Again.
(Srsly, is there any possibility, you can lose 2 of 3 vs. Canadian..?)
2-1
Rd 4 RGW-Aggro Loam
G1: I start with Forest Hierarch, he wstarts with Thicket, -> Go, I waste his Land, drop SotF and he scoops.
G2: I Start with SotF again, h has a faster Draw this Time, but not fast enought to stop VV.
3-1
Rd 5 UBW Control
G1: I resolve Shaman on Turn 2 and start chaining VV, he has Wrath on Turn 4, but I trigger VVs again with Goyf + Hierarch, for the win.
G2: He counters 2 SotF and 1 Shaman, I resolve a Goyf and a Knight and swing for the win.
4-1
Rd 6 Supreme Blue
G1: I waste his Tundra, resolve SotF and win.
G2: I screw him again and swing fort the win, with Goyf, Knight and VV.
5-1
Rd6 DDNT
ID 16 pts are enough to be top 6 for sure, we play the prices out, and I beat him 2-0 (G1: Bad Draw vs. Iona, G2: Combo vs. Savanna, Hierarch, Mother, SotF, Goyf, Canonist and Teeg, followed by Topdeck Forest + Heath)
5-1-1
GW Sur rocks, but you really don't want to play vs Loam...
And some more results: :wink:
I played a 50 people tournament today going 5-0-1 finishing 1st place. Since I own a playset foil Vengevines now, I gave the "8-Survival-List" a shot today for the very first time - and well, as you can see, the result is very nice! ;)
My list is almost identical with the one from Valdezī last post. Just for reference; I played:
Lands
5 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaeaīs Cradle
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Basking Rootwalla
3 Vengevine
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Eternal Witness
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Tormodīs Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Aven Mindcensor
Maindeck is 61 cards I know - I just didnīt want to play without Gaddock mainboard, so I added it. Also I would NEVER EVER play without Gaeaīs Cradle - seriously, this card is insanely good in this deck - even more with Vengevines! Spore Frog+Genesis were last minute changes. At first I had 4 PtE also, but then my reasoning was: with 8 Survival outlets, these two cards get even better since you can establish "the lock" so consistently. And I guess effectively it means only cutting one PtE, since Spore Frog can also be played first turn to stop Goblin Lackey for instance. That change paid off multiple times: against Natural Order, Survival Elves I would have lost without having them, and also against Enchantress it was really cool to get a Pridemage back every turn via Genesis.
I also cutted Faerie and Bojuka Bog, since they are too slow imo. If you have them in your opening hand, Crypt is as fast also (with the lone exception of Faerie on the draw, but then with only a single copy, the odds of drawing it, are really small) and in all other cases Crypt is just faster (since Faerie requires active Survival and Bog and active KotR, which both means you have to wait till turn 2/3 at least). So I figure against every deck you want to draw GY hate Crypt is simply better.
My MatchUps today were:
Round1: Natural Order Survival Elves 2-1
Round 2: UWG Faeries 2-0
Round 3: UB Merfolk 2-0
Round 4: GWR Survival 2-0 (played against "Spirit of the Wretch")
Round 5: Enchantress (feat Living Wish for stuff like Karakas which was a really solid list imo) 2-0
Round 6: TES (He offers me a draw, which I gladly accept, since Iīm the only one with 5-0 and I know what heīs playing. We play it out nevertheless and I win 2-1 - so actually I went 6-0 undefeated - really nice!) ;)
All in all, I have to say, I really like this version of GW Survival aswell! You can choose between playing the Aggro Deck via Vengevine or play more "controlish" via Iona/LR - and that adds a lot overall power to the deck!
And though I was sceptical about Fauna Shaman at first, I have to say they are a true powerhouse in this list!
Props to Tao, Valdez and Waikiki for providing the list - itīs really fun to play! Vengevines are just the nuts!! ;)
GW/u survival just won starcity games. The blue only appeared to be for wonder maindeck. Decklists should be up shortly.
Congratulation guys, and good that now everybody has agreed on Vengevines and Faunas. Also good that finally the series of 9th place due to Tiebreakers in big tournaments with Top8 (and 5th places when randomly only Top4 is reported) or these tournaments just not posting their winner decks for the first time in years is over. The tournament results just keep on coming!
And that despite the fact that many good players seem prejudiced against a Legacy deck that is neither all out Aggro nor uses Force of Will. It is so odd that i don't read anything in this thread from any of the big names in this forum. Well, if they just keep on losing to GW they will eventually have to acknowledge the deck. A deck's strength is not defined by the number of Legacy staples it plays or by someone not liking these colors but by the overall win percentages against the field.
Is it time for the DtB forum? I think it seriously deserves its spot. From my testing results it should be no problem to have it there. At the moment I wouldn't play GW because I like it but because I think I get the best odds of winning the tournament with the deck. It autobeats the heavily played Merfolk deck and usually beats Zoo. Depending on their and your version and sideboard it does overall around (non-whitewashed) 50% vs. Goblins, Countertop and Ichorid. I also never felt that the UG Madness matchup is negative, they are far more dependant on Survival and in G2 far more vulnerable to graveyard hate. Even the formerly atrocious Combo matchup has improved (as long as they play the atm more popular Combo decks), GW gained 4 more Survival effects so a T3 hate bear is guaranteed while they lost Mystical so the number of Turn 2 kills as well as their chances to kill the bear hate are reduced. Still no fun matchup but certainly no auto loss anymore.
I also won (splited finals) a 5-swiss tournament with top 8 yesterday. Went 5-0-2 in total.
r1: Dredge, 2-1
r2: Aluren, 2-0
r3: DnT, 2-0
r4: ID
r5: ID
top8: DnT, 2-0
top4: Dredge, 2-1
top 2: We split the playset FoWs and the boosters.
"Dodged" all blue match-up's in the field, 5 of them in the top 8. Kind of weird really, since CB and merfolk is what this deck usually prey on.
I seriously don't feel there is anything I can't handle with this deck, with all the utility creatures maindeck. I haven't been on such a roll since playing canadian in 2008. Storm is probably the worst matchup, but what else is new for GW decks...
I'd like to note though, that I do not approve of the Fauna Shamans, so in reply to Tao above, no, everyone does not play it. But I do play 1 tropical with wonder maindeck, and have been doing so from the start.
Cheers.
Deck from SCG:
1. Place Jessie Butler
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures
2 Basking Rootwalla
1 Dauntless Escort
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vengevine
1 Wonder
Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg
Basic Lands
3 Forest
1 Plains
Lands
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
1 Aven Mindcensor
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tectonic Edge
And also 3. Place GW-Surv Adam Cai:
Maindeck:
Creatures
2 Basking Rootwalla
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vengevine
Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Basic Lands
4 Forest
1 Plains
Lands
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
Both play the Stoneforge Toolbox. The First one doesn't play iona combo and no shamans (maybe no retainer available?) and splashes blue for Wonder.
At least maybe with this big success it will be more popular in the US. In Germany it's more popular than ug madness at the moment and has more success.
Although I normally play GWb survival with vials, I am planning to bring this deck to a tournament this coming weekend, main deck my list would probably look a bit more like Valdez or Venices list with a few tweaks here and there. I am not sold on fauna shaman yet but only more testing will tell me if I should go and put in shamans.
However, my meta would consist of the following Zoo, Merfolk and UG or UGw Madness( these are my priority match ups. as my metagame is flooded with blue there are only a few combo decks around and is not too much of a concern ). My question is what did you board in and board out when you were facing UG or UGw madness out of your experiences. What does and doesn't work for this match up?
For Zoo/Merfolk I bring in Paths, for Zoo also possibly Bog for their Knights + Lavamancers, and I take out Shamans, as they are either too slow or too fragile.
For UG I side in Mindcensors, Bog/Faeries and also the Teegs if I suspect NOgenitus (I actually know who plays it in my meta). Boarding out is not so easy, I do that rather on intuition.
i played 3 merfolk decks in a row at nashville, be ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
I already know what the merfolk and zoo match is like. And merfolk can only really win if they have a very very good hand, or they get double standstills. Zoo can still race as always.
@ everyone
I am concerned with the UG and Ugw madness matches however since I have very light experience against them. That is why I am asking people in here for their experiences with UG or UGw madness. What they board in and what they board out.?what generally works
@ venice
I see you have the genesis sporefrog lock on your sideboard. Did you ever compare it to a single peace keeper as it only takes one slot and takes 2 mana to maintain while sporefrog takes 4mana ? or was genesis sporefrog just plain better even if it takes 2 slots because it also works against the control match up and lets you attack at the same time?
It is quite funny that GW - which is FAR less played - dominates the SCG tournament and all people talk about is how broken Madness Survival is. I don't know the data but probably 1 out of 20 UG Madness went to Top2 and 2 out of 5 GW Survival went to Top3. But just like a White Weenie deck will never win the Pro Tour a green white deck can't be a good deck. Heck, even the Ooze Combo deck got more attention. 90% of the comments are directed towrds UG Madness and those to GW are flat out dumb. My favorite quote from the Ban Survival thread is this:" Couldn't they just play, like, any blue counterspell ever? SotF turns on all of blue's counterspells by being the only must-counter target in the deck. No hate necessary, just counter Survival and you're facing down a janky pile of GW creatures with all on-board combat tricks."
Anyway. Despite the hilarious lack of contact to reality by the Legacy community when it comes to GW Survival we will have to adapt to the hate that the people throw at UG Madness. We honestly couldn't expect to get free tournament wins forever, so we should be thankful it lasted as long as it did.
First of all: the good thing that comes out of it is that Combo will probably not be the most popular answer because even though UG Madness isn't as good as people make it, it is no fun to try to Combo against a deck without Removal, but with an insanely fast clock, Stifle, Force of Will and Daze.
On the downside playing in a prepared Meta means fighting through things like Humility, Moat, Relics, Extirpates, Spell Snares, Engineered Explosives, Perishes and other nasty stuff. The first things that come to my mind are:
- maindecking 4 Qasali Pridemages: It deals with many hate cards and doesn't need Graveyard support.
- SB Elspeth, Knight Errant: I was always a fan of her because she is not only good on her own, but also insane at fighting through hate. Since in the last months there wasn't any hate in the Meta she wasn't needed but this will surely change now. If you make a list of cards that people will throw at you in G2 you will notice that Elspeth trumps all of them.
Another thing GW has to obviously prepare for is UG Madness. This means:
- One thing I learned from the Top8 coverage is that Ethersworn canonist doesn't lock YOU out of triggering Vengevines. Just play more Canonists in the Side and you are fine because of its own Artifact status. I actually feel kinda stupid because it is so obvious and yet I advocated lists with exactly 1 Canonist in the SB. So if you play Canonist, play at least 2.
- We need a SB plan against UG Madness. What is the most efficient and reliable way to attack them? Graveyard hate, Enchantment hate, Canonists, Mindcensors? What do we take out? To me it seems that as long as GW can stop Wonder and Survival into more than 2 Vengevines GW is ahead. The Mongrel + Rootwalla + 1 Free Turbo Vengevine offense is usually controlable with Mother of Runes, Swords, Goyf and KotR.
@ Tao
All that you said is true... People have no love for GW.
The only real problem I ever have with UG madness is wonder, and if they have a really really fast hand. Interesting how you mentioned 2 cannonists, I might actually try that.
I actually read that paniced OMG-the-meta-has-changed-my-Countertop-deck-sucks-Let's-BAN-something-thread just now.
It makes absolutely no sense, but still... Is anyone worried?
Since Wizards killed my last pet deck with porely motivated bans less then half a year ago, I know I sure am.
This deck is absolutely sick. U/G Madness was pretty good, but the creatures in G/W are much better, plus it isn't cold to the likes of Peacekeeper. The possibility of Iona combo is nice too.
For those of you who play both G/W and U/G, do you miss having blue for countermagic, especially against combo? Or are the likes of Gaddock Teeg, Iona, and sideboard hate enough? How about losing Wonder?
I don't miss any counters, cause you have much more BEEF :D. They cannot counter everything and if they try you simply roll over them with something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Losing Wonder... There never was Wonder in this list ;) It's good but not needed. I myself splash blue for Wonder like the winnder of the recent SCG, cause it makes it more explosive, but it's not needed its more a personal choice.
Combo MU is bad. BUT as the results of the most tournaments show we are able to win this too, cause we have Mother + canonist/teeg and iona. Only Problem is a Turn 1 kill. If we survive to turn 2 or 3 its 50:50 if we can play our hate fast enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
To me, Spore Frog+ Genesis is by far the best option here, since it is so versatile. (Genesis is pretty useful in other Matchups also and can sometimes even act as a "Green Squee" if needed). Since GW Survival is dependent on attacking with creatures in order to win games, Peacekeeper doesnīt support that overall gameplan at all. Imo, Peacekeeper is only good in decks which run Jace TMS, since they can just drop Peacekeeper, protect it and win. In this deck however, dropping Peacekeeper would result in a stall, where both sides would try to ramp up their board position, until either the opponent finds a solution or you can Alpha Strike and finish the game in one turn... but I guess therefore you would have to play Wonder since otherwise opponent will have developed plenty of blockers....
In my first Round this weekend against Survival Elves, there was the situation where I had to recur the Frog every turn in order to survive. But at the same time I tryed to end the game asap (via Goyf with protection green to get through his blockerwall) to prevent my opponent from finding a solution. Had I had Peacekeeper in that situation the game had probably resulted in a draw...
The only advantage of Peacekeeper is, that it only requires one card and that is doesnīt depend on the graveyard.
@ComboMatchUp:
The only combo decks that Iīm "afraid" of when playing GW are TES and Belcher, since they are that fast. Gladly, the trend seems to lean towards more DDFT (at least here in Germany) than TES and that means having an average 1.5 turns more time to drop a hate bear. I mean of course, itīs still no good matchup but by far not unwinnable! And playing with six hate bears postboard, the opponent is literally forced to go for an turn 1 or 2 kill (whether on the play or draw), or risking to lose.
Iīd even claim, that GWs combo Matchup isnīt any worse than UGs, maybe even better. I guess itīs much easier for combo to play through a counter than having to deal with permanent hate.
@Tao: Boarding against UG Survival seems a bit tricky, since almost every Sideboard card is playable against the deck (referring to my list above) As an overall rule of thumb Iīd suggest trying to play the control game, since their deck is much more explosive than GW. That would mean taking out Vengevines+ Rootwalla first. From there it already gets harder.... But cards I would defenitely want to bring in are:
3 Crypt
3 Canonist
2 Grip
1 Mindcensor
2 Spore Frog/Genesis
...obv. PtE would also be good... and even Gaddock to prevent Submerge and FoW.... hm,.... I guess there are almost too many options which makes it hard to decide how to board without sacrificing too much of the decks consistency. Any suggestions?
@ venice regarding boarding
I too am testing that style where in I board out vengevines and rootwalla and become the control player.
I bring in paths and cannonist and grave hate. I will still try other styles where I might even board out survivals, and rely on fauna shaman instead. There is soo much to bring in . Gaddock however is a 50/50 guessing game, although if you feel like they would board in nO , gaddock hits a lot of other spells as well.
I am still lost at the boarding strategy here however I will continue to test more and give news of my testing regarding it.