[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

I don't always have the luxury to hold back the seat until mid/late game. Especially if I'm worried about stifle, efficient brainstorming/jacestorming or using predict properly. To each his own, I just prefer a simple island, makes things less complicated. I'd play the 4th swords, 4th counterspell is pretty heavy. 4th top is not a must but highly recommended. You can cut a bullet for it. Like I said, o-ring is fine if you have space for it. It's never a bad card, I just prefer a streamlined deck with minimal silver bullets. I've always had a personal policy of simple, efficient, streamlined with minimal bells and whistles. This deck isn't lightning quick so STP is needed to keep you alive until you get your bomb enchantments out or until you assemble either countertop or thopterfoundry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I don't always have the luxury to hold back the seat until mid/late game. Especially if I'm worried about stifle, efficient brainstorming/jacestorming or using predict properly. To each his own, I just prefer a simple island, makes things less complicated. I'd play the 4th swords, 4th counterspell is pretty heavy. 4th top is not a must but highly recommended. You can cut a bullet for it. Like I said, o-ring is fine if you have space for it. It's never a bad card, I just prefer a streamlined deck with minimal silver bullets. I've always had a personal policy of simple, efficient, streamlined with minimal bells and whistles. This deck isn't lightning quick so STP is needed to keep you alive until you get your bomb enchantments out or until you assemble either countertop or thopterfoundry.

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I am heading in the same direction. As I wrote a few posts ago I was leading to having less silver bullets, a 3/2 split and more consistency.
Having silver bullets is nice, but having the combo faster is really good against aggro. And games are shorter.

I agree with you sir 100%. I'm glad there are more people who share the same opinion. I wouldn't discount the 2/1 split totally. I might go to 2/1 if blue control suddenly takes over the format and aggro died out. However, in the control matchup, the problem is enlightened tutors's card disadvantage and not the number of combo components IMO. I guess I'd cut 1 tutor as well if I wanted an extremely good blue MU. But the card disadvantage from e tutor can be offset by their dead removal (swords especially).

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I agree with you sir 100%. I'm glad there are more people who share the same opinion. I wouldn't discount the 2/1 split totally. I might go to 2/1 if blue control suddenly takes over the format and aggro died out. However, in the control matchup, the problem is enlightened tutors's card disadvantage and not the number of combo components IMO. I guess I'd cut 1 tutor as well if I wanted an extremely good blue MU. But the card disadvantage from e tutor can be offset by their dead removal (swords especially).

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Against decks running :b: post board I decrease the split from 3/2 to 2/1 because of the possibility of extirpate. However against aggro seeing the combo earlier is better.

I post my list if it could help you:

Counter-thopters (French meta, if it exists...)

// Lands
4 [M10] Island (2)
3 [IA] Plains (3)
1 [ON] Mountain (3)
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Tundra

// Spells
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [BD] Counterspell
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility (can't afford Moat)
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant (can't afford the 2nd Jace)

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes (currently in test)
SB: 1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring

The last version I played (the last week) contained a 3/1 split for thopter/sword, a mountain instead of a plain, Ajani vengeant instead of Elspeth and O-ring for the 2nd sword.

I'm open if you have some advises (sorry for my english).

I would play more fetches instead of the 3rd plains and the 3rd tundra. You don't need that much white, and fetches are excellent with top/jace/balance. The maindeck seems solid, some space for spell snare is optional. I've liked playing 3 snares in a fast meta. - Needle, 2nd EE and -1 Elspeth seems like a possible alternative. I highly recommend the 2nd Jace though. When you finally get it, I think cutting a snare will be ok. Sideboard really needs a rework, too many 1 offs. The only 1 offs that I think are must plays are: Crypt, relic, o-ring, blood moon, needle. The rest can be cut for some combination of path to exile/spouts (kitchen finks is pretty good too, how has it been in testing?) and red elemental blast. Red elemental blast especially, that card is insanely good vs blue (which is usually a high % of most metas). Some of my personal thoughts. Good job on playing the 3/2 split. I strongly believe its the correct call right now.

Thx for the help ivanpei.

Indeed, I think about cut the 3rd plain for a fetch but keep the 3rd tundra (or cut it for an island maybe). For the rest of the MD, last week was the first time I played the deck so I'll wait for more testing before cutting needle and the 2nd EE (which helps me several times).

About the sideboard, i agree it contains too many "one slots" but, like I said earlier, is only theorical. I like your way about REB and i think about include it instead of canonists, 3rd EE and wheel.

@versus004: I agree with ivanpei that you don't need that much white, more fetches would be better. How was having 1 Volcanic and 1 Mountain have been in testing? I find it a little redundant especially considering you only need 1 red source at most. I suggest making the volcanic island and 3rd plains 2 more scalding tarns, it works quite as good as having a volcanic in play without the vulnerability to wasteland. I also suggest losing the arid mesa for another island. Me personally, I like having a lot basics in this deck because I see its being very light on dual lands as a major up-side (big reason why some lists have blood moon md), other than these, the rest of your manabase looks fine.
As for the maindeck, I believe 4 fow and 2 counterspells aren't enough. From my experience playing against blue, i'm not sure if it was how i played or was it my list, but it has always been a struggle resolving counterbalance-top especially against blue. They just out gun me during counterwars for counterbalance that i decided then and there that I need to rework my list (I'll be posting it later on). Since you play humility and spouts, I suggest losing 1 EE (I feel having more EE is stronger but spout works better with humility) and 1 Top and 1 sword of the meek (I'll explain the card choices later when I post my list)for 3 snares or just EE and top for 2 counterspells. Maybe its just personal preference but having counterbalances wouldn't make much sense if the deck struggles in winning counterwars outside of counterbalance-top. Apart from this, I see you play 1 Needle over an O-ring, how has needle been playing for you as compared to O-rings? I have also been thinking on which of the two should I play maindeck, I believe currently play O-ring because it's the silver bullet that you can tutor for to answer random troublesome permanents your opponents may have.

I looked into testing some of the suggestions thrown my way during my last post here and I have tested more extensively against more decks and thus, I made adjustments to my deck. My list is now:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares

2 Firespout

3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

Now, for the explanation of the changes. 4 counterspell and 3 counterbalance. Chances are I am going to get alot of criticism for this, but regardless, this works for me. I believe this deck needs more than 6 or 7 hard counters in support of the counter-top soft lock. Like I mentioned earlier in testing with blue decks both tempo and counter-top mirrors, this deck struggles in counterwars to resolve counterbalance, and struggles to stop spells that find their way around the counterbalance lock (a 3 to cast EE on 2 colors @_@). I settled on 3 counterbalance because I rarely want to play counterbalance as my 2 drop, I'd rather have mana open for other spells, I often opt to play counterbalance as my four drop so it has counterpell and fow back-up, again maybe it's just the way I play the deck, but I don't always look for landing an early counter-top soft lock (maybe for the deck vets you can also give me cues if you think I'm playing the deck wrongly). I now play 4 stps, because as ivanpei mentioned before, it's very important especially for staying alive espeically for this deck that doesn't win as fast. Now, for 3 top and 3 thopter foundry. I settled on playing 3 tops because as much as I would to have a top in my starting hands, I prefer not having to look via top into more tops. Although, it's highly recommended to play 4, I prefer not having dead cards and drawing into top eventually. As for the 3/2 split, I looked into as I said earlier, the most I would go into this direction is a 3/1 split and that was exactly what I did. a 3/2 split is too much like a said and 2/2 split isn't as good because the 2nd sword is definitely the deadest card in the deck. So I settled on 3 thopter foundries. Thopter foundries are less dead as compared to sword of the meek, and more importantly, you only need 1 sword ever. You can have foundries countered or if you resolve one, the rest are pitched to fow or whatevever. As compared to swords that when countered isn't that big a loss, and when resolved the other sword becomes a blank. You only need to resolve thopter foundry and then just tutor of sword later when you are in a much better position. This is just how I play the deck, comments and constructive criticisms are always welcome. :laugh:

On a sidenote, I've been looking into whether O-ring, 2nd EE or a Needle gets the slot as a variable silver bullet slot? Any insight into this matter, people? Thanks for the input guys!

Hi guys,

I play this deck for a while now and went to a tournament last weekend. 5 rounds, 1 win against Zoo, 1 draw against Bant Aggro, and 2 losses against Zoo and Landstill. Then I dropped. I played this list:

// Lands
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod

// Spells
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
1 Moat
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The deck plays very nice. But I have some concernes. Postboard I am afraid of Krosan Grips and GY hate. What do you guys do against that? One Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus can ruin your thopter-combo. And Krosan Grip will ruin your Counterbalance / Moat lock.

I thougt of 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard against Krosan Grip, or maybe Greater Auramancy. And maybe a seccond Pithing Needle in de sideboard against Qasali Pridemage and GY hate.

Another problem was that I had too much to tutor for. First tutor for control (counterbalance/moat), than tutor for the win (thoptercombo). For this I am going to add Tezzeret the Seeker. He can tutor for the total wincon, so more tutors can be used for control.

The splash of red and green are nice in the deck. Mainly against Merfolk I have some more answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heronimus

Hi guys,

I play this deck for a while now and went to a tournament last weekend. 5 rounds, 1 win against Zoo, 1 draw against Bant Aggro, and 2 losses against Zoo and Landstill. Then I dropped. I played this list:

// Lands
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod

// Spells
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
1 Moat
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The deck plays very nice. But I have some concernes. Postboard I am afraid of Krosan Grips and GY hate. What do you guys do against that? One Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus can ruin your thopter-combo. And Krosan Grip will ruin your Counterbalance / Moat lock.

I thougt of 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard against Krosan Grip, or maybe Greater Auramancy. And maybe a seccond Pithing Needle in de sideboard against Qasali Pridemage and GY hate.

Another problem was that I had too much to tutor for. First tutor for control (counterbalance/moat), than tutor for the win (thoptercombo). For this I am going to add Tezzeret the Seeker. He can tutor for the total wincon, so more tutors can be used for control.

The splash of red and green are nice in the deck. Mainly against Merfolk I have some more answers.

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First of all, your list is all over the place. You are trying to answer everything, which is spreading your deck too thin. You need one or two tutorable 'bombs' that win you the matchup, and that is it. I suggest streamlining your mana base down to 2 or 3 colors, not the 4 you have here. You are just asking to get blown away by decks with Wasteland.

Second, GY hate outside of Extirpate does not ruin your day if you are smart with making your Thopters. If they activate Crypt or Relic, just make another Thopter in response. When the Crypt or Relic ability resolves, your Sword will no longer be in the bin.

For Grips, you can board in some combination of Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage, or just a fatty game-winning creature that becomes better post-board since they usually board out all of their removal - some guys on here have been running Baneslayer Angel with decent results, I think. I have never tried her, though.
You don't need extra Pithing Needles against Zoo. Your goal is to establish Balance/Top with and float either 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 on top (depending on what kind of list they are running).

Has anybody tested the Poryphory Nodes tech that was in that SCG article a while back? It seemed solid, but I never got around to testing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat

Has anybody tested the Poryphory Nodes tech that was in that SCG article a while back? It seemed solid, but I never got around to testing it.

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I believe that has been discussed a few pages back.

Hi guys, I need a quick feedback on the following list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Humility

Curve
1cc: 14
2cc: 12
3cc: 4
4cc: 4
5cc: 4

As you can see, the deck lacks 3cc drops. What would you change to remedy this? Is Thirst for Knowledge viable?
Otherwise, I've been pretty happy with the deck. Back to Basics has been surprisingly good. I also upped the Thopter/Sword count from 2/1 to 3/2 and never looked back.

@Darkogoyf: I like your idée about the game-winning creature in sideboard and I would like to know your feelings about the steel hellkite from Scars of Mirrodin. I really love this card and its ability to make a EE each turn.

In the other side, what all of the thopters players think about the Grand Architect which can change a mere thopter into a unlimited mana generator. Indeed, each thopter can, thanks to the Architect, produces 2 mana. With the thopter combo online, this ability may come to be monstruous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by versus004

@Darkogoyf: I like your idée about the game-winning creature in sideboard and I would like to know your feelings about the steel hellkite from Scars of Mirrodin. I really love this card and its ability to make a EE each turn.

In the other side, what all of the thopters players think about the Grand Architect which can change a mere thopter into a unlimited mana generator. Indeed, each thopter can, thanks to the Architect, produces 2 mana. With the thopter combo online, this ability may come to be monstruous.

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Do note- Grand Architect is a lord for blue creatures, so your thopters will be 2/2's, not 1/1's, and thus will not trigger Sword of the Meek from the yard when they enter play. So while you can tap your thopters for mana and make them a little bigger, you cannot go infinite with just Architect, a Sword, and a Foundry.

...
...
... I had forgotten this part of the sword...

Epic fail. ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bongo

Hi guys, I need a quick feedback on the following list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Humility

Curve
1cc: 14
2cc: 12
3cc: 4
4cc: 4
5cc: 4

As you can see, the deck lacks 3cc drops. What would you change to remedy this? Is Thirst for Knowledge viable?
Otherwise, I've been pretty happy with the deck. Back to Basics has been surprisingly good. I also upped the Thopter/Sword count from 2/1 to 3/2 and never looked back.

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3 Jace/3 Foundry seems like a lot, and 2 Oblivion Ring looks really clunky. How has hit held up in testing? I personally like 1 Crucible of Worlds/1 Ensnaring Bridge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by versus004

@Darkogoyf: I like your idée about the game-winning creature in sideboard and I would like to know your feelings about the steel hellkite from Scars of Mirrodin. I really love this card and its ability to make a EE each turn.

In the other side, what all of the thopters players think about the Grand Architect which can change a mere thopter into a unlimited mana generator. Indeed, each thopter can, thanks to the Architect, produces 2 mana. With the thopter combo online, this ability may come to be monstruous.

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The Steel Hellkite is a 6 mana artifact creature. The important part is that it is an artifact; we want to blank their removal and make them feel silly for boarding out all their creature removal for artifact removal (ie. turn those Krosan Grips and Ancient Grudges into dead cards); Steel Hellkite does not accomplish this.

@Everyone:
I am thinking of changing to a green splash to allow us to board in Rhox War Monk to fight Zoo decks who board in Grip. Any feedback here? I'm having a brainfart moment and can't recall other decks who are really dependent on Grip postboard against us...I know there's a few more.

Bant-like decks (aggro, NO, loam, counterbalance) apreciates the grip against us... New Horizons maybe

Edit: I forgot Survival decks.

Is anyone still playing this deck? The thread seems dead..

I will play it agains.. Stopped for a while to try another deck, but I'm back..

Btw this list arrived second at Ovino 5, a tournament in Italy with 350 people from around Europe:

2° Place , Thopterstill , Marc Tobiasch

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcaninc Island
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Sword of the meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Spell Snare
61
SIDE
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Whell of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing needle
3 Firespout
1 Moat
2 Perimeter Captain
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives

What do you think of the addition of Mishra's Factory and Standstill?

At first glance the addition of Standstill and Factory just seems to really be pushing the deck into a more standstill esq direction and in that case I would suggest merely playing BUG Still instead... Landstill decks need CA not card quality (typically).