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Vendetta (as i noted down) was just cause i needed 3 more cards since the shop did not have Dystopia, which i planned in the first place to take 3 Slots (versus Solitary Confinement, Ghostly Prison, Tarmogoyf and anything else that fits in green or white)
Soul Spike? Seriously? I dont want 3 Cards for 1. Spinning Darkness - that ones looks pretty nice, will include that next month. What would you cut for it ?
@McFae: Yeah, not in a shitty undeveloped meta like this one :)
So an 8-point life swing vs Burn, in exchange for two useless removal spells in your hand, doesn't appeal to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
Nope it doesnt
Why would i not board removal out versus burn? To keep dead cards in my hand for Soul Spike?!?!
First of all, I really love the deck. I stumbled upon it in my quest to build something around Contamination and will probably abandon that and just go ahead and play this.
Obviously, I haven't played the deck as much as some, but I agree Soul Spike seems a bit loose. Isn't three cards (at least) one card too many for the effect? I get that it's a cool trick against ANT, but isn't it just that, a cool trick? Wouldn't a discard spell be better? Again, I haven't played that much with the deck.
Against burn you lose 3 cards to gain 4 life. Assuming a card is worth 3 damage from the burn player you go 1.3 for 3, so it would seem that in that particular matchup Inquisition of Kozilek would get you better value (1 for 1).
2nd, does anyone have experience with Contamination in this deck?
Contamination goes for a more control-ish version. In fact if u play contamination u will most likely need to either cut some discard or some removal. Its a nice mooning with Bitterblossom, but imo many many decks tend to have a basic backup plan, i kinda dont like it :/
Dont forget that contamination just changes the kind of mana lands produce, not their types. so u will e.g. still be able to use maze of ith or shit ....
Actually, the fact you can still use abilities can also be used in your advantage. But yeah, you're probably right about Contamination. Too bad though, the card is cool..
Nah, i dont think its THAT bad... it cuts your opp off his mana - no doubt. And this way seen, its a nice lock. But still i think its very slow and demands kind of good drawing.
Also, from my experience today, its mass Krosan Grip everywhere u look (or Oblivion Ring ;O )
Contamination
Oring won't work, since they will never have any W to play oblivion ring while contamination is in play. Likewise, they need to have 3-mana open at all times to ever get contamination with grip. not to mention the fact that you'd likely be able to make them discard that grip before you play contamination. Additionally, contamination doesn't care about basics it all. It changes all colored mana from lands to :b:.
That said, the card takes quite a bit to build around, but it is very strong if it can resolve. I was actually thinking that a deck with the new Reassembling Skeleton would be the perfect choice to make contamination work, but that seems pretty poor to me still.
well, the most obvious choice to be played with is Bitteblossom (has been done allready ;) )
At the moment i really consider to go for contamination too, i think i will give it a try, i will just swap 3xMcFae for 3xContamination i guess. The "problem" is that u will pretty much need to play 4x Bitterblossom and still....bitterblossoms gets hated so much. In my experience, rarely could i resolve/keep my Blossom for more than 1 round :D
Maybe Contamination will make me do it^_^
Judged from the Meta ive played versus, Contamination in Fact can be GG for some decks, but its kinda slow..... dunno.... testing will solve mysteries i guess :P
Oh...and yeah... i totally overlooked that land-in-general produce (B) then... which makes it interesting again
What i´d also like to test out is that Helm of Obedience thingy - seems decent.
I think i go for some experiments, i somehow want a combo in TheDeck, i want something that makes this Deck even more of an Harm, which makes an alternative to the Beatdown
Here´s what one could try out:
// Lands 21
18 [ZEN] Swamp
03 [TE ] Wasteland
// Creatures 16
04 [RAV] Dark Confidant
04 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
04 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
04 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
// Spells 23
04 [OD ] Innocent Blood --> dunno, maybe cut down to 3 or so....
04 [MOR] Bitterblossom
03 [US ] Contamination
02 [ONS] Smother ( / Deathmark / Edict / whatever)
03 [JU ] Cabal Therapy
02 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
03 T H O U G H T S E I Z E
02 [DS ] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 03 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 04 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 04 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 04 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
Several things I would like to point out about this list:Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
a. Inquisition of Kozilek is strictly inferior to Duress. It is even more so than Thoughtseize, which isn't even finding its way into anyone's list.
b. Umezawa's Jitte should be a three-of. It is far too powerful to be cut down to a pair when the card itself provides a massive swing at any point during the game.
c. Hymn to Tourach should find its way into the main build. That card is so versatile at just about any point in a game to only play it sideboard is not allowing you to maximize its potential in the first game, which can cripple an opponent severely. I made that mistake before and I won't again.
d. Contamination is a sideboard card at best, because it simply does not give you enough offense the first game or surprise factor like a Macabre would. Faerie is also an able body, and functions completely different. I think surprise graveyard hate is much more important here.
A: Seeing most of the Legacy Decks curve, i think they are on par. Aside from Jace, FoW and AdNauseum i cant think of that many targets that inquisition doesnt hit.
B: Agree
c: y well, i just need to try without it, mainly to problems of fitting all in this deck - im uncertain what i would cut instead for going to +2 Bitterblossom and +2 Top´s
d: seeing my meta, i think im happy with "just" the 4 Leylines in the sideboard.
Contamination btw sure is not purposed to be offensive. It provides a lock for many enemies that preboard can hardly be handled (except Zoo with Pridemages or so)
I just need to test it, on paper it looks really good in my opinion
Tendrills, ETW, fof, humility, wog.Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
The list is simply to big, and you have a ridiculous ammount of critter hate to deal with the creatures you cant pick.
IoK is only playable in Team America, and that deck sucks.
Well, i had the Discard options in exclamation marks for a good reason - im dead tired about all the discussion which of the 3 1-off discard to play. If i allready had my Thoughtseize, id play those and sing "la la la" at all discussing the 1-off discard (aside from therapy, which is a must)
Lets pretend i play the one 1off discard you think is best -> can we skip on to discussing the question wether Contamination is playable?
I know you don't want to cotinue the discussion about the 1-off discard but that's exactly the question I was thinking about all day long. At the moment i got a playset of Duress in my Deck because I thought it's not that hard to be not able to target creatures because u got a bunch of creature removal but especially when it comes to t1 lackey I'm not sure if Thoughtseize would be the better choice. Besides often the sorcery speed removal (Innocent Blood) can't handle a lackey which comes into play by vial. On the other hand I think the combination of Thougtseize, Confidant, Bitterblossom and Dystopia (Sideboard) is kind of risky.
Me stating i dont want to discuss it, doesnt mean that YOU cant :D
I think Goblins would be the one matchup where Thoughtseize is better than Duress, especially when about all of your removal is not that good against them (Innocent Blood is very good against Lackey T1, but after that Matrons are easy fodder. Deathmark is, well, Deathmark). But even then, the lifeloss seems too much to overcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven1986
@Contamination: In my limited testing so far, Contamination mattered exactly 0 times. Most of the time I would have a good boardposition already, or I needed to play other stuff. It really seems to be a crippling card, but it's quite slow and requires a good deal of set-up to work properly. I'll keep testing with it though, I'll let you know how it goes.
Just because you do not own a specific card for the deck doesn't mean you need to short-change yourself on a strong list advocating suboptimal choices. This is one of the few effective Established decks that is far less expensive than just about any of its peers; it's not like you're playing with duals or even fetches here.Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
seriously, why ignore the exclamation mark?
I dont get it... i allready stated that AS SOON AS THEY REACH MY PLACE i will play them
Well whatever, just to cut this senseless discussion i edited my post
There u go, now it says Thoughtseize
SO CAN WE DISCUSS SOMETHING USEFUL NOW ?
Thanks
Back to contamination:
I played some matches getting the following thoughts:
+ It crippled Stompy and WhiteStax. Can be luck, but i resolved it T3 every one of those 6 games and my opponent was stuck with 2dmg giving Tombs that produce B or a city that even had to be sacced (which he ofc didnt). But smokestack could still be resolved forcing me to sac the contamination every now and then.
+ It was no backdraw versus NewHorizon....but hm.... that MU is nice for me anyway...
+/- It was hard vs zoo. T2 Pridemage in 3/5 of the games made Contamination a "Pridemage-Removal" for 3 :). After the second game, my opponent adepted and srsly kept 3 Mana open, waiting for me to drop a contamination - kinda nice for me cause i had all the time in the world. One would say he is a bad player ;)
- Ichorid laughed @ cc3, then stopped laughing when i boarded in 4 Leylines (3 Contamination out, 1 Gatekeeper out)
- ANT laughed, then ate discard.... then i laughed. Game 2 he laughed after boarding in his discard to discard my discard Oo
To be tested: Goblins, Merfolk, U/W Tempo, Reanimator
So far conclusion: I think without the 2mana Lands or without rituals its too slow....but i havent tested enough yet to stamp it as crap. The question for me atm is:
Is it the threat u want after destroying your opponents first 2 turns (discard, innocent blood, discard). It seems like a nice lock, but i dont like how ur relying on drawing BOTH the contamination and the blossom :/
Starting out with appropriate grammar would be somewhat helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
Also, what entices you so much about Thoughtseize? The deck runs so much removal as it is, why pay two life to do something that almost a quarter of the deck does anyway? Duress is effective enough to dismiss any non-creature threats and cards like Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper of Malakir serve dual purpose.
In the next few weeks here in germany are some legacy events, where I want to continue playing the gate. The only problem at the moment is the SB.
Maindeck works perfectly with 17s +4w.
My SB at the moment looks kike that:
4 spinning darkness (amazing)
2 Faerie Mac
2 Dystopia
3 Soul Spike
4 leyline of the Void
During the last tournaments I liked the 4 leyline, they won a lot of games. BUT they need 4 SB slots. And only two dystopia seens to be not enough. So the the SB I`ll try in the next weeks are the following one:
4 Spinning Darkness
2 Faerie M
3 Dystopia
4 Soul Spike
2 XY -
The open slots could be two SoLS. but I didn`t test them (and have none). So maybe you have some test results with them?
@ Thoughtseize vs Duress vs K.Inqu.
My testings and tournament experiences with this decks lead me to 4 maindeck duress (like hollywood). I tried each of those cards, but duress is the best one. We can handle each problematic creature and the loss of life is really not necessary. the inquisition was the worsest cards of all three.... well if you SEE the humility, Planeswalker, etc and you can nothing to against it, that feels always bad.
Duress is just amazing. You can pick combocards like adnauseam, planeswalker, forces....just everything which could ne a problem.