[Deck] The Rock

Vial seems fine if you're playing at least 20 creatures, then I think it's just fine.

I read somewhere that the new Sword is pro Green and Black, with the ability of untapping lands if it deals combat damage to a player. Seems good since it means we can lay out more threats in the second main, as that's usually all I want to be doing. Might be an interesting addition for a Stoneforge build.

Also, I did about an hour of playtesting against Merfolk today (U/B with Standstills, Perish, and Plague). I did alright, but the matchup wasn't fantastic. Much of the time if they get going, they just crap out too many guys for me to deal with. I tried playing with Moxen and not (using cards as either Moxen, or what I had them as originally). I know everyone is swearing by Moxes, but they didn't shine for me today, but neither did the slots that replaced them. Most definitely Dark Confidant is amazing in this matchup, as are Swords/Path. Having 6 Swords main was amazing when I drew them. Sometimes, he managed to Standstill twice, nullifying the massive discard I pounded him with early on, or drew double Perish in boarded games.

I tested a split of 2/2 Plague and Dueling Grounds, obviously making note when I wanted one to be the other. The main problem postboard with Dueling Grounds was a Wasteland taking out Maze, or Perish taking out my blockers and Coralhelm beating for 5-6. Not sure what the answer is, but some of the games weren't fun to play. I did like having Pulse, it was useful many, many times. blowing up multiple Coralhelms or Vials was insane, but Vindicate was also very good (albeit fragile to Cursecatcher one time, wasn't paying attention :P) today. I'll be doing 5-6 hours of testing against ONLY Goblins, Merfolk, TES, ANT, and Bant on Saturday morning, so I'll have more to report then. Until then, let's try to brainstorm some more builds/sideboard tech against Tribal, as I believe it to be the weakest matchup, in my opinion.

-Matt

@ivanpei: I tried a build like that right after Zenith was spoiled. I had 3 Natural Order, 4 Knight, 3 Zenith, 1 E. Witness, and no Vindicates, and I still found that too top heavy. I ran Noble Hierarch as acceleration, but I still found that tribal decks like Goblins were too fast, and didn't really care about Zenith. I'm trying Zeniths in the board right now, for midrange matches where having extra Goyfs/Knights/Qasalis would help, and for combo, where it can search up Teeg.

@ Brian, thanks for your obsevations. In that case isn't having the Zenith as a llawonar elf awesome? Zenith's shining quality is that it serves as an accelerant if you're hand is too top heavy.

Using Zenith to get Dryad Arbor turn 1 didn't happen as much as I thought it would. If I had a 1-land hand with Zenith, I usually mulled it, while I generally keep 1-land Noble Hierarch hands. If I had a 2-land hand with Zenith, I generally waited to cast Zenith to get fatties later on. The versatility of Zenith is a double-edged sword; nothing screams "I'm mana screwed" more than turn one Zenith for Dryad Arbor, since you wouldn't cast it turn one if you had enough mana. So I found that most of the time, Dryad Arbor got Bolted/Swordsed/Wasted before I got to use it. Also, Dryad Arbor only adds green mana, making it much harder to cast your turn 1 accelerant off of a basic forest (turn one forest-->Noble Hierarch is doable, turn one forest-->Zenith leaves you with only green mana). Although this is more important for my build than for yours, since I run 4 Qasali and 4 Tidehollow Sculler.

Agreed, but you definitely should be running out the zenith Turn 1. If it gets wasted, you just payed 1 mana to LD you're opponent, which is awesome. If if gets sworded, you only invested 1 mana. I agree that hitting green is pretty inefficient. Zenith is probably not as good in a 4 Qasali 4 Sculler deck though. But in my Mid-rangy rock list, its very very strong. You now have 8 ways to have 3 mana on Turn 2. IMO zenith is just amazing.

I feel like Zenith is a dead end. In my opinion, the weak links in the deck are Mox Diamond, Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, Tarmogoyf, and Thoughtseize. What all these cards have in common is that they are not CA. That's not to say that they aren't very good cards in their own right. Of course they are, but these are where I feel we will be able to have the most improvement in the deck without simply scrapping the deck.

Mox Diamond is the best accelerator in Legacy but at the cost of card disadvantage. I don't foresee a better way to generate 2 mana on t1, so Diamond is probably staying.

Of those cards, Vindicate generates virtual CA, so it isn't so bad. It has a high mana cost though, so perhaps something will come along that gives more bang for it's buck. Maelstrom Pulse comes to mind, but Maelstrom Pulse's CA can be a toss up and it doesn't hit lands. If Maelstrom Pulse was target permanent other than a basic land it would definitely be up for consideration.

Swords to Plowshare is the best spot removal in the game, but it certainly generates no CA. It's cheap and you can do tricks swordsing your own dudes, but there's room to improve.

Tarmogoyf is just a vanilla creature. He's the most efficiently costed creature in the game and he's certainly a big beater, but he's just that. It'll take one hell of a creature to trump him, but of our three creatures, he's definitely the weakest link.

Thoughtseize is a very powerful card, but it has its inherent problems. CA is so important in Legacy because the majority of cards are such high card quality. If I Thoughtseize someone, I could be looking at anywhere from 1 to 3 game-altering cards. Thoughtseize is an excellent card, but it's still a one-for-one.

Anyways, I know some of you will disagree with me, but personally, when I look at a new card, I'm thinking to myself "Can it fill the same role as one of these cards and is it actually better than one of these cards?"

Rock decks traditionaly run Eternal Witness for CA. However a 2/1 body isn't very impressive by today's standards. Natural order eats witness up well but, that's inherently too clunky. IMO zenith does not make the rock broken, but it does many things. In my list, I play a single witness to tutor for. Zenith for witness does not solve the gas problem but it seems like a very strong play late game. Getting Natural order back and having a creature to sack to order is pretty good as well.

Zenith is just a very very good swiss army knife card. If you feel that CA is the main problem in your meta, I'd play dark confidants. The KOTRs in my list can easily be darkconfidants. Zenith is also just 1cc, so it's bob flipping friendly.You should see zenith as a bomb tutor for goyf, kotr, witness, pridemage that can be used early game as a llawonar elf. It doesn't scream broken. But it is extremely strong.

I'm not sure why you'd ever want to fetch Dryad Arbor with Zenith though. Using Zenith t1 means you need a Green mana. In most builds, that means either a Forest or a Bayou. If you use a Forest that means when you fetch a Dryad, you'll only be ramping yourself into 2 Green mana, which is by far the most fringe color of the deck. If you use a Bayou/Savannah then you are begging for a Wasteland which would not only completely negate your ramping but would put you horribly off color. Your build isn't as Black dependent as most builds, but you are still begging for someone to come along and put you horribly off color. Mox Diamonds are nearly untouchable and even Nobles are harder to hit and tap for 2 relevant colors at least. I don't see what Zenith adds to the NO plan since NO is already a better "tutor effect".

To me, Zenith is a very interesting for a quick mana bump. The opponent can counter the zenith, or waste or remove the land but to me it is like an exploration on the exact turn you want it, the first. This deck really likes 2 mana on turn 1 (Via diamond) way more than 3 on turn 2 but it isn't terrible to be able to play around daze or throw a dude in front of lackey. Obviously when you have more mana it can become whatever you want it to be. Also, you can boost the cmc higher to dodge CB and can get cool CitP effect dudes as silver bullets. How any of this fits into the rock though is beyond me at the moment.

Except a mana bump into double Green will get you nowhere. (Unless you basically scrap the Black idea)

Where I see Zenith being potentially useful would be in a tutorboard. Fetching Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, or Peacekeeper doesn't seem bad. Even without the card disadvantage, I'm not sure it'd be more powerful than Enlightened Tutor, but it certainly could be worth a shot.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Except a mana bump into double Green will get you nowhere. (Unless you basically scrap the Black idea)

Where I see Zenith being potentially useful would be in a tutorboard. Fetching Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, or Peacekeeper doesn't seem bad. Even without the card disadvantage, I'm not sure it'd be more powerful than Enlightened Tutor, but it certainly could be worth a shot.

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The Green Zenith only gets green creatures.

Ha. I guess reading is the first skill you need in Magic huh? ;p I guess that shoots the tutorboard idea.

Maybe it could find a place in GW aggro, but even then, I'm not sure why you'd run it over (or additional to) Natural Order.

Assuming you play a dual Turn 1, I don't see the problem of going double green. Green is the decks central colour. You need the double green for Natural order and Eternal witness (if you are playing her). I don't see why you won't want to play the Zenith. Being able to accelerate turn 1 into 3 mana on turn 2 has to built around sure. The deck will need to be build a different way. The trends I'm seeing are 2cc creatures like scullers, pridemages etc etc which are colour intensive and don't appreciate a llawonar elf on turn 1. However if you cut these for 3cc cards like more vindicates, KOTR, Eternal witness, you might have something to work with. the Vial/2cc centred versions of rock most probably will not want the Zenith while the 3cc centred versions will definitely love the zenith.

Black is actually the primary color of most successful lists out there. You usually want to be hitting double black, not double green, on turn 2 for Hymn. The good lists I have seen also run Mox Diamond to hit 3 mana on turn 2. I'm not shutting out the idea of Zenith, but the options we already have are quite powerful.

I don't understand why you are still talking about zenith, that card is pretty bad to begin with, and even worse in the rock. It may have applications elsewhere, you'd basically have to build around it, but not the current rock lists.

Anyways on a different note I've got a short tournament report that I'd like to share. I played at local legacy tournament that had 51 players in it and I ended up in 9th with a record of 4-1-1 and some bad tie breakers. First here's the list, note that I also tuned it a bit to be better against a more aggro meta.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquare
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ghastly Demise

3 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pithing Needle

Round 1 vs. a goblins/burn deck: This guy was playing a much homebrew style goblins/burn deck. It had lacky, ringleader, warchief and few of the other usual suspects, but he als played some tuk tuk thing that put out a 5/5 when he died, not sure what it's called. He also played goblin grenades and lightning bolts no aether vials, all mountains, no nonbasics. Game 1 I have no problem controlling the board and getting there with my dudes. Game 2 I keep what I think to be a good hand of 2 scrubland, 1 top, 1 ghastly demise, 1 swords to plowshare, 1 bob, 1 vindicate. I play the 2 scrubs and the top and hold back on bob for when i need it, or when I know that he has no bolt. On his third turn (he played first) he drops a blood moon followed by a turn 4 goblin warchief. After several turns of digging for any basic lands or even a mox diamond (i was holding onto a wasteland i drew, so i could pitch it to the mox) I fail to find a basic or a mox. His 2 damage a turn clock finally gets me down from 20 to 0, talk about bad luck. Game 3 by turn 2 i have fetched a basic swamp, and a plains and had a mox diamond in play while he has some dudes that just get killed, and on turn 4 drops a blood moon, lol.

sb in: 1 ghastly demise, 2 edict
sb out: 2 thoughtseize, 1 vindicate
1-0

Round 2 vs. g/w aggro: This is a friend of mine playing a GW aethervial aggro deck with stoneforge package. I won't go into great detail but we went back and forth all 3 games where we'd each have a creature out beating then the other would trump it or kill it. He eventually took it on game 3 because I failed to find a deed. In this matchup I really wished that I had at least 1 more deed to bring in. He ends up going undefeated the rest of the tournament and splits in the top 4, we decide to name his deck white bitches (stoneforge, KoTR, Mother).
1-1
sb about the same as above

Round 3 vs. Burn: He is playing the burn deck, the one that saw some SCG top 8's not too long ago. Game 1 he mulligans to 6 on the play, a single hymn follows by 2 tarms then a knight just barely get there for me game 1. Game 2 he gets what he needs and squeaks by with a fireblast to finish i kept 2 thoughtseizes in my deck and drew both which sat in my hand usesless. Game 3 double hymn and a duress nukes his hand with me still at 15 life. A walk in the park from there.
sb in: 3 Duress, 3 Extirpates, 2 edict
sb out: 4 Vindicates, 4 Thoughtseize
2-1

Round 4 vs. Countertop: This guy is a very solid player and I think he plays the deck that Gerry Thompson played at the SCG Open San Jose. I open first game with a turn 1 hymn to tourach followed by a turn 2 hymn, followed by a turn 3 bob that eats a sword, followed by a turn 4 bob and he gets there. Game 2 turns about to be pretty similar with a turn 1 hymn and 2 more bob's to follow.
3-1
sb in: 3 k-grips, 2 duress
sb out: 1 ghastly demise, 2 swords to plowshare, 2 deed

Round 5 vs. Reanimator: A friend of mine playing a reanimtor deck that seems okay, but I haven't really seen it play at all. After some discussion and checking out standings, we decide if we draw, we just have to both win our next round and both be in top 8 rather than only one of us make it, so we we draw.
3-1-1

Round 6 vs. White Weenies: This guy had a deck that was quite different. It was playing the white myrtr and serra ascendant along with a stoneforge package that had at least the following equipment : 2 sword of light and shadow, 1 sword of fire and ice, 1 sword of body and mind, and 1 jitte. I know he plays these because at some point he had all of them on the board at once. Game 1 I don't have a swords in my opening and he gets a sols on a serra ascendant early which i'm not able to answer and gets to 30 with a martr and wins with serra. I figure as long as I keep him off of a creature this should be an easy matchup. Games 2 and 3 were long wars of trying to keep a creature on board. In addition to his swords he brought in tariff (typically used for progenitus) which is able to kill a KoTR at some point. I eventually win due to all the card advantage from bob and deed. It was a long drawn out battle and i ended up winning in turn 3 of the last 5 turns allowed.
sb in: 2 ghastly demise, 2 diabolic edict
sb out: 2 thoughtseize 2 vindicate
4-1-1

After eveyone finishes, I find out I ended in 9th place, which is just outside of prize of course. A little upset but I guess that's the risk I take. My friend that I split with ended up in 8th, so at least he made it in. In the end the only thing that I'd really change is that random pithing needle in the sideboard. It REALLY needs to be deed #3. Thanks for reading.

I understand what you are getting at. The hymm, 2cc centred builds that are more sui-black with GW fatties will definitely not benefit from the zenith as you need the instant speed bump Turn 1 (mox is like a good dark ritual). I was referring to the slower GBw lists which slowroll with eternal witness, vindicate, pernicious deed etc etc. I think this is where the deck diverges. I'm not saying one build is superior over the other, they are just different decks.

IMO the 2cc centered aggressive versions are better against blue control, greedy manabases etc but worst against goblins, "quick" decks like zoo which empties their hands very quickly and have highly similar cards. The slower, more board controlling 3 drop centred ones are worse against blue control but better at taming quicker decks and grinding them out.

After playing all Tribal and CounterThopter matches all yesterday, I've come to a few conclusions.

1) Tribal is a tough matchup, sideboard or not. I was definitely on the shy side of 50/50, especially since both Goblin and Merfolk builds I tested against ran sideboard Perish, which was annoying as hell.
2) Mox Diamond is VERY conditional. To keep a good hand with Mox, you need 2+ lands, Mox, and a two-drop. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I can't count the number of times I drew no Mox, Mox with few lands, lots of lands and no Mox. All in all, I'm still disappointed here. I did manage some Turn 1 Confidants/Hymns, but much of the time I was wishing they were my other flex slots.
3) We're low on creatures, holy hell. At times I'm REALLY wanting more beaters, especially against Tribal. Coralhelm Commander, I hate thee, screwing up my whole plan with Dueling Grounds. Massive sadface for you! Getting Perished also REALLY blows. It's not like you can't play out creatures either: you want to try and get there.
4) I always wanted more Deed. Always. Much of the time, 1 for 1 isn't good enough against Tribal, because they have more threats than you have answers. Enter Deed. Every time I drew Deed, I won the game. Plain and simple. Clearing away Vials and their board was amazing, and later in the game when they were out of cards and running off the back of 2-3 creatures and I was in topdeck mode, Swords was underwhelming (I mean, 1 for 1 was underwhelming). Having at least 2 Deeds main, albeit slow, is needed, I think. 3 Total wouldn't be a bad idea, for sure.
5) I really think Elspeth would be amazing, now that I've had the chance to think about it and play it in a flex slot. Having Confidant not fearing a Lackey/Manland/Cursecatcher is awesome.
6) We're really good against Jace based decks, especially with more Deeds. Vindicate/Pulse were exemplary. Die, you $80 bastard. We're really good except when we have Top + Knight going and can shuffle and dig 3 multiple times a turn and don't hit 1 of 8 answers. Sigh.
7) I hate freaking Goblin Ringleader. Seriously, clearing your board but you refill afterwards, and Haste me? Seriously, no love lost if that card died in a fire.
8) Path to Exile replacing Gerrard's Verdict is totally the right call. 6 Swords are way more amazing than mediocre hand disruption.

I did some converted mana cost calculations, and I thought I'd share.

In an average 2-drop centered Junk list, running Mox Diamonds, no Deed, but 1-of Elspeth, the average CMC of a card (not including lands in this calculation) is 1.85. Without Mox Diamonds, and 3 Deed in their place, CMC rises to 2.11. With 2 Deed and 1 EE, CMC goes down to 2.05. Just playing the numbers here and saying that Mox Diamond has still been underwhelming, and raising our CMC for more Deeds doesn't change it that much. Of course, you could add more 1-2 drops, which would make it even less, just using Deed as an example.

By the way, I just learned that possibly over 50% of my meta could be Stax at a large tournament. Pretty weird, huh? Not sure why we have so much Stax, but I think I'll play 4 Deeds in that tournament :D

-Matt

After playing around with Dueling Grounds a bit I'm not sure if I like it. What happened to me at least was that it basically stalled the game to a halt. The Goblin player sat there building up cards in his hand and every now and then fetched a Siege-Gang and squeezed some damage through. Finally, I'm sitting at 9 life and have to do something so I Deed and wipe the board. His turn he plays half his hand, swings, and I die. I made an error here, but even so, the game was not in my favor even after landing Dueling Grounds t3 with Maze support. I'm not sure if Engineered Plague would have gotten me there better, but it might be something I'm going back to.

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6) We're really good against Jace based decks, especially with more Deeds. Vindicate/Pulse were exemplary. Die, you $80 bastard. We're really good except when we have Top + Knight going and can shuffle and dig 3 multiple times a turn and don't hit 1 of 8 answers. Sigh.

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I'm curious, which 8 answers are you referring to? Are you playing 4 Vindicate 4 Pulse? If you're counting Deed as an answer to Jace, it's not, since it doesn't clear planeswalkers.

I needed to clear away a Moat to be able to attack Jace, so 4 Vindicate, 1-2 Deed,1 Elspeth. Plus, I was exaggerating a bit. You get my point :P

-Matt